IOC's decision: (clean) Russian athletes can compete under neutral flag at PyeongChang Olympics

[BlueRidge]

Okay so those in the know about these things who can explain about Stolbova, could you please explain about Ivan Bukin?

 

[misskarne]

Urine samples for skater came from 2 different people. DNA involved. If you follow The skating Lesson on FB, the info is there...from documents.

*snort* Yes, that bastion of journalistic integrity and solid fact-reporting, TSL....

I can't believe how much more stupid this whole thing got as I slept. Two skaters who've never had a shadow of doubt on their names - one of whom wasn't even in Sochi! - and to make it worse, that bastard of a statement from the IOC. So if their exclusion does not mean they are dopers or their integrity is compromised, why are they banned?

 

[Cherub721]

I thought when it was discussed at the time people were saying it didn't distinguish between the types of skater, so Stolbova was the only female figure skater who matched the description, but it could have been a speed skater too.

 

[Andrey aka Pushkin]

And there's no doubt in my mind that Ina/Zimmerman did anything wrong. But our "minds" are not relevant. The facts are. The fact is Ina did not take a mandatory drug test and was suspended. We don't know what the facts are here and may not ever know but that doesn't change them and our "minds" are not at all relevant.




I am not sure without knowing the facts you know that the IOC is incompetent idiots. I expect that if they had banned someone you didn't like you would think the IOC is made up of brilliant individuals LOL!

1) First of all, please don't assume I don't know the facts, because you don't have the slightest idea what I know and what I don't. If I say that IOC are incompetent idiots who treat figure skating like it's athletics, it means I have the reasons to say it.

2) One of the facts that we all know for sure, is that WADA has never accused either Stolbova or Bukin of doping OR procedural violations. The current decision (if it is indeed a decision) has been made exclusively by the IOC and not related to any recommendation from the WADA. And since they decided to harm obviously innocent athletes, see 1)

3) In the history of figure skating only 4 times athletes have been suspended for actual usage of doping. There have been procedural violations, like in the case of Ina (not like it mattered) or Kostner, but actual usage of forbidden substances has been caught only 4 (four) times. Therefore treating figure skating like any other sport is at best incompetence, see 1)

4) As for the second paragraph, you're an idiot. (@TAHbKA (TM))

 

[Carolla5501]

But ... but... Knierems will WIN!!!!

As long as we can get the IOC to ban France, Germany, China, Canada and Italy! (and probably a few I forgot!)

 

[Carolla5501]

1) First of all, please don't assume I don't know the facts, because you don't have the slightest idea what I know and what I don't. If I say that IOC are incompetent idiots who treat figure skating like it's athletics, it means I have the reasons to say it.

2) One of the facts that we all know for sure, is that WADA has never accused either Stolbova or Bukin of doping OR procedural violations. The current decision (if it is indeed a decision) has been made exclusively by the IOC and not related to any recommendation from the WADA. And since they decided to harm obviously innocent athletes, see 1)

3) In the history of figure skating only 4 times athletes have been suspended for actual usage of doping. There have been procedural violations, like in the case of Ina (not like it mattered) or Kostner, but actual usage of forbidden substances has been caught only 4 (four) times. Therefore treating figure skating like any other sport is at best incompetence, see 1)

4) As for the second paragraph, you're an idiot. (@TAHbKA (TM))

It's pretty evident you don't know the facts. But your hysteria is fun to watch

Your "Facts" seem to be "the same rules that apply to other athletes should not apply to my friends"

Once you resort to name calling I am forced to realize that 4th grade mentality has taken over. And I just ignore 4th graders. It's been fun, but bye!

 

[VGThuy]

Okay so those in the know about these things who can explain about Stolbova, could you please explain about Ivan Bukin?

I don't think anybody knows anything about Bukin apart from some conjecture. We all hope to see a detailed explanation if he ends up not being invited to compete.

 

[skategal]

Don't be ridiculous. Obviously I stopped AFTER, and especially after it was hinted at in one of PJ Kwong+Kurt+Carol Behind the Boards recaps. Even apart from this, Carol Lane's "performance" during Rostelecom is enough.

You specifically said that "they" were starting a conspiracy of the judges being against V/M. If by "they" you are meaning Kurt and Carol, I doubt very much they said any such thing. There has been only one team this season that can beat V/M and when they did at the GPF, Kurt and Carol said that P/C deserved to win because V/M over skated their program and made mistakes.

Carol did say at Rostelcom Cup that the marks were high for Russian teams "because it's Russia."

That's not much different than many posters say on FSU about other countries (Canada/USA) and we can debate if it was okay for a commentator to say that (I think it wasn't) but considering that V/M didn't even compete at Rostelcom Cup, it wasn't about them.

Even V/M themselves have been saying that the judging has improved since Sochi. So I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[BlueRidge]

I don't think anybody knows anything about Bukin apart from some conjecture. We all hope to see a detailed explanation if he ends up not being invited to compete.

I'd still like to hear from those who seem to know there's a valid reason against Stolbova what they think about Bukin being also included.

 

[kwanette]

*snort* Yes, that bastion of journalistic integrity and solid fact-reporting, TSL....

I can't believe how much more stupid this whole thing got as I slept. Two skaters who've never had a shadow of doubt on their names - one of whom wasn't even in Sochi! - and to make it worse, that bastard of a statement from the IOC. So if their exclusion does not mean they are dopers or their integrity is compromised, why are they banned?

He put up documents, didn't come from "him".

 

[barbarafan]

I'd still like to hear from those who seem to know there's a valid reason against Stolbova what they think about Bukin being also included.

apparently the final list is only due Jan 27.2018.....So the first list might be no hint of anything...and then there could be a list that they want to check out a few things

 

[BlueRidge]

apparently the final list is only due Jan 27.2018.....So the first list might be no hint of anything...and then there could be a list that they want to check out a few things

But no one actually knows anything that could be a reason "they want to check out a few things" do they?

I realize there could be things that are not known to the public, I'm just trying to get at what it is that people who do think they know things think they know.

 

[TAHbKA]

It's pretty evident you don't know the facts.

Um... he does.

Your "Facts" seem to be "the same rules that apply to other athletes should not apply to my friends"

The only skaters who were @Andrey aka Pushkin 's friends are Zaretskis, so yes, it was funny to watch how he was trying not to write their programmes/skating is shite. Otherwise... AFAIK he never even spoke to Stolbova nor Bukin.

Oh, and you're an idiot

 

[Cherub721]

I'd still like to hear from those who seem to know there's a valid reason against Stolbova what they think about Bukin being also included.

But were people really saying it was valid or just that they weren't surprised? Her name has been brought up before because of that report about "a Russian skater with a gold and silver medal from Sochi." AFAIK, that was the only thing that ever tied her to doping, and they've been aware of the story for years. Mozer had an interview where she talked about traveling to Italy and some tabloid printed the article with Ksenia's photo and she nearly had a heart attack and she was so angry and wanted to sue them for defamation but had to be talked out of it.

 

[BlueRidge]

But were people really saying it was valid or just that they weren't surprised? Her name has been brought up before because of that report about "a Russian skater with a gold and silver medal from Sochi." AFAIK, that was the only thing that ever tied her to doping, and they've been aware of the story for years. Mozer had an interview where she talked about traveling to Italy and some tabloid printed the article with Ksenia's photo and she nearly had a heart attack and she was so angry and wanted to sue them for defamation but had to be talked out of it.

Well certainly not everyone, maybe no one, I can't really tell. Mostly I'm just having trouble with this whole business of they aren't necessarily having their integrity questioned and yet they are named. And people say, well Stolbova had this possible thing all this time, despite the fact that she's not been accused let alone banned. And Bukin no one knows any reason yet his name is being put out there in a way to cause it to appear he is being "banned" for "doping." Its really disturbing to me.

 

[LilJen]

I think it all depends on whether you think Stolbova and Bukin are witches or not.

Do they float?

I hope, hope, hope this is all some preliminary report that has no basis in reality and that Stolbova and Bukin will both be able to compete with their partners.

 

[Andrey aka Pushkin]

I thought when it was discussed at the time people were saying it didn't distinguish between the types of skater, so Stolbova was the only female figure skater who matched the description, but it could have been a speed skater too.

If I recall correctly, eventually it was Stolbova? I'm not sure, it was either assumed it is her or actually stated it was her.

Either way, she was officially cleared from any suspicion and never appeared in any list after Rochenkov stated that skaters weren't part of the scheme.

 

[Carolla5501]

Um... he does.

The only skaters who were @Andrey aka Pushkin 's friends are Zaretskis, so yes, it was funny to watch how he was trying not to write their programmes/skating is shite. Otherwise... AFAIK he never even spoke to Stolbova nor Bukin.

Oh, and you're an idiot

We Seem to have a large number I have adolescent or preteen posters today. Another bring a poster I will be adding to the ignore list. I don’t bother to read what fourth-graders have to say

 

[Willin]

TBH I think everyone should wait to panic until the official list comes out. We have NO IDEA if they are actually not going or if they're just not approved on this preliminary list. As Russian officials said per @Tinami Amori this could just be an administrative error. Per speculation there could be doubt about doping status among the IOC. Per other speculation they may not have met testing standards or something similar.

Don't call this an evil conspiracy against Russia and its athletes until we 1) know the final list and 2) have a reason they were left off.

I won't judge the IOC if they are left off the final list if they give a reasonable reason for them to be left off. I will be a bit suspicious if the IOC refuses to give any reason whatsoever, though I have no idea what the IOC gains by leaving them off the final invite list if there isn't a good reason for them to be left off... But I will wait to see what happens with the final list.

@Andrey aka Pushkin I don't know if you've said anything along those lines, but I find it somewhat hypocritical that a lot of Russia fans are perfectly happy to call Rodchenkov a crazy, unreliable witness until he says something that serves their agenda (ie. figure skaters weren't involved). Personally, I trust the vast majority of what he's said, and I trust him that figure skaters weren't involved - unlike for other sports there seems to be no good evidence that figure skaters were part of this.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Russian Skating Federation is sending an inquiry to IOC on the status of Stolbova, Bukin lack of invitation (as it is quite odd to have only 1 member of a pair not invited, while the teams have no doping history, and both teams passed all required tests at the same time by same methods + Bukin was not near Olympics 2014).
https://www.tvc.ru/news/show/id/131386

(fighting over opinions in this given case is pointless, it's a procedural issue and we need to follow info... yelling matches about Ross Miner did not solve anything and annoyed the heck out of many).

 

[Andrey aka Pushkin]

@Andrey aka Pushkin I don't know if you've said anything along those lines, but I find it somewhat hypocritical that a lot of Russia fans are perfectly happy to call Rodchenkov a crazy, unreliable witness until he says something that serves their agenda (ie. figure skaters weren't involved). Personally, I trust the vast majority of what he's said, and I trust him that figure skaters weren't involved - unlike for other sports there seems to be no good evidence that figure skaters were part of this.

FYI, I'm not a Russian.

I don't know whether Rodchenkov was telling the truth or not, but since the entire story was based around his testimony, it makes no sense to believe him that there was a scheme but not to believe that figure skaters weren't involved. Much less sense, anyway, than claiming "he's crazy, but even he didn't blame the skaters". Figure skating in general is not a "doping" sport, so involving skaters in this nonsense would have been pointless.

Generally, from what I know, some of the things he said made no sense. But in general very few people doubt that there was indeed a state sponsored scheme, and I'm not an exception.

Re: the rest of the post, I find it problematic. There's very little time to do anything, so "let's wait the final list and see" is not an option. I don't understand much in other sports, and most importantly have no information about them; however, as for figure skating, there's no doubt that banning Stolbova and Bukin would be a huge injustice. So for once I'm all with the Russian Fed, and they should do everything humanly possible to fight IOC.

And to repeat myself, my trust in IOC has been shuttered. If they make this decision based on unknown, but obviously doping unrelated reasons, there's no reason to believe they haven't done it to other athletes in other sports. In such case, this organization has compromised itself and should be dismissed.

 

[skatak]

(trying to bring a light note ^^)

big dilemna here... with the final option to team Stepanova and Klimov together : should they be entered in pairs or ice dance ?

 

[Willin]

@Andrey aka Pushkin I never said you were Russian - there are many fans of Russian skaters who are not Russian, and some of those individuals on this forum are calling Rodchenkov entirely unreliable.

I do agree that the IOC could've handled things better, and that they should've handled things better (I have no idea why the preliminary list was released publicly, and they probably should've had the final list out a week or two ago if not last month), but that's bureaucracy - slow, inefficient, and bad at handling things quickly. But we have zero evidence that they made this decision on "unknown, but obviously doping unrelated reasons." For all we know, the thing about Stolbova's urine sample could be true and Bukin might have had some other kind of incident that wasn't reported through the rumor mill (refusing a test, not having enough tests over a period of time, etc.). Until they state a reason, we have no reason why they banned them.

 

[caseyedwards]

In reading more and more articles there’s a great celebration in Russian sport today for all the people who did get invited. Just like after the initial decision any pathway given by the IOC is greeted with great acceptance.

 

[chantilly]

You specifically said that "they" were starting a conspiracy of the judges being against V/M. If by "they" you are meaning Kurt and Carol, I doubt very much they said any such thing. There has been only one team this season that can beat V/M and when they did at the GPF, Kurt and Carol said that P/C deserved to win because V/M over skated their program and made mistakes.

Carol did say at Rostelcom Cup that the marks were high for Russian teams "because it's Russia."

That's not much different than many posters say on FSU about other countries (Canada/USA) and we can debate if it was okay for a commentator to say that (I think it wasn't) but considering that V/M didn't even compete at Rostelcom Cup, it wasn't about them.

Even V/M themselves have been saying that the judging has improved since Sochi. So I have no idea what you are talking about.

Not to mention that ironically it was a French newspaper that brought up a judging conspiracy in Sochi.

 

[cholla]

S/b was supposed to replace b/s and now that team is finished. History. Never to compete again.

I am a little bit worried about your blood pressure. Your sense of drama and theatrics is totally exceptionnal but I am afraid it's also highly unhealthy. You should take better care of those arteries of yours. We can see stress and despair clogging them by the minute

 

[barbk]

Here's to hoping for some rapid clarification. I can't imagine how hard it must be to go into training with this hanging.

 

[BittyBug]

(as it is quite odd to have only 1 member of a pair not invited, while the teams have no doping history, and both teams passed all required tests at the same time by same methods + Bukin was not near Olympics 2014)

I actually don't think it's unusual. Teams are not tested together - athletes are tested individually and at random, so it is quite common for only one member of a pair to be tested and therefore to have issues emanating from only one member of the team. Think Berezhnaya, Ina, Bobrova. It was not their team who was suspended, it was just the individual. Of course, it impacts the partner as well, but not because of his or her own issues.

 

[Deleted member 40371]

I am a little bit worried about yout blood pressure. Your sense of drama and theatrics is totally exceptionnal but I am afraid it's also highly unhealthy. You should take better care of those arteries of yours. We can see stress and despair clogging them by the minute

There are some who can get others worked up without having any affect on themselves, I believe the said individual is such.

As for IOC and WADA being picture of pureness, I will remind that only this week the case to that Henri Schoeman, the olympic bronze medal in triathlon came to light. After he failed the drug test, British IOC member Richard Budgett was trying to push for retroactive TUE.

Nonetheless, Budgett is "still hopeful" a TUE will appear, as Schoeman did declare his usage — and remains in damage control mode, asking whether a "retroactive TUE" would be accepted if a medical record "justifying the treatment" can be found. He's also keen to move as quickly as possible, as "[waiting] a week or so" before formally noting it would "look bad."

https://sputniknews.com/world/201801171060833854-olympics-doping-schoeman-tested/

 

[Tinami Amori]

I actually don't think it's unusual. Teams are not tested together - athletes are tested individually and at random, so it is quite common for only one member of a pair to be tested and therefore to have issues emanating from only one member of the team. Think Berezhnaya, Ina, Bobrova. It was not their team who was suspended, it was just the individual. Of course, it impacts the partner as well, but not because of his or her own issues.

Makes sense. at the same time if russians had special required programme for testing, add. tests to take, it would be logical if they attended it as a team.