IOC's decision: (clean) Russian athletes can compete under neutral flag at PyeongChang Olympics

[LeafOnTheWind]

But ... but... Knierems will WIN!!!!

I wouldn't want to watch that competition. As much as I would like to see US pairs winning medals, I don't want it that badly.

 

[caseyedwards]

(of all the days today is had to be my crazy work day)... So, very quickly, i have some info. Don't panic, it is not as bad is it sounds in the press.

Stolbova, Bukin, plus few others, have not been "banned/rejected". At present, they are not included in the Main List of Invitations. The original list submitted by Russian side and recently returned by IOC with comments next to name in question, did not include Stolbova, Bukin. As well, Rodchenkov specifically mentioned "skaters not involved".

At this point the RFSF (and other Feds, but we're here for skating) considered the situation to be either an admin. or data base error, or that these name are under further review. "Not included" does not mean "rejected" at this point, since there are more names to consider after CAS hearing.

Partial statement from IOC including Fourneyron's:

"By carefully looking at all the evidence available we wanted to be absolutely certain that there was not the slightest doubt or suspicion against any of those athletes who will be invited," said Valerie Fourneyron, who chairs the IOC panel which decides which Russians can compete.

"Not being included on the invitation list does not necessarily mean that an athlete has been doped - it should not automatically cast doubt on their integrity. The IOC would like to make clear that there may still be further enquires and further anti-doping procedures coming up against a number of those athletes who have not been included on the pool of athletes considered for invitation."

(there is more to it, but later). and don't freak out, sorry for people Bukin and Stolbova, but if we look honestly they were not getting medals. (and i Love Ksenya, so don't take it wrong).

Who cares if they weren't getting medals at the 2018 Olympics. Now they are both guaranteed retirements who will never go to worlds or try for 2022 Olympics. You think Bukin is going to spend all of 2018 to 2022 trying for Beijing to be banned 3 weeks before it?

 

[BlueRidge]

Who cares if they weren't getting medals at the 2018 Olympics. Now they are both guaranteed retirements who will never go to worlds or try for 2022 Olympics. You think Bukin is going to spend all of 2018 to 2022 trying for Beijing to be banned 3 weeks before it?

I actually am concerned about this leading to the end of Stepanova & Bukin as a team. But, Occam's razor, the more obvious reason its happening is that the IOC is trying to make itself look tougher than it did with its original decision not to ban Russian athletes and its found some hair-splitting reason in can ban a few athletes now. Hopefully they won't be allowed to let this stand.

 

[Meoima]

Some other athletes in other sports who never dope are not included. Ughh I feel so sad about this. I hope clean athletes can go.

 

[skategal]

It’s clear Canada will be happy about this. They’ve also been propagating this “conspiracy” against V/M that they’re being cheated (like they did in Sochi, btw).

Who is they?

Most Canadian's probably don't even know that V&M are the flag bearers.

 

[chapis]

Who cares if they weren't getting medals at the 2018 Olympics. Now they are both guaranteed retirements who will never go to worlds or try for 2022 Olympics. You think Bukin is going to spend all of 2018 to 2022 trying for Beijing to be banned 3 weeks before it?

True, at this point Korea is not so important, I am worried about their long-term career. The worst is that Bukin is the kind of guy who seems happy simply competing, it must be so heartbreaking.

 

[MarieM]

I really think that if that process WAS fair, this should have included ALL athletes around the world. Not russians and only them.
Dopers will be there, we just don't know who they are or what they're on. Dopers are always that much ahead of everyone else.

 

[Elkmaria]

Yeah, while it is definitely a hard blow to Stolbova, her career is not likely to be as damaged as S/B's. She got to compete at the Olympics and has two Olympic medals, as well as many other international medals. She had a long and successful career and was probably going to retire after these Olympics anyway. S/B, on the other hand, actually had a chance to move up the ranks after B/S's retirement: not a sure bet, but a realistic one. I hope that they continue, if not for the next Olympics, then at least for an opportunity to place higher at Europeans and Worlds.

 

[Rock2]

I really think that if that process WAS fair, this should have included ALL athletes around the world. Not russians and only them.
Dopers will be there, we just don't know who they are or what they're on. Dopers are always that much ahead of everyone else.

No.

The fair process is that international bodies conduct regular drug testing... and individual athletes who fail must face disciplinary action which is fair and consistent across countries.

This process assumes countries/federations are supportive of international drug testing procedures and certainly do not interfere with the integrity of the drug testing process with a view to altering results.

RUS failed in that regard so consequently, their athletes will need to be vetted through a special process to be able to compete. Should other countries be found to be interfering in the same manner their athletes will need special clearance as well.

 

[Willin]

@MarieM The Russians brought this upon themselves with the doping scandal. Surely Jamaica and the implicated African countries will also be under increased scrutiny, but only Jamaica has any winter Olympic athletes of those countries, and they only have two athletes, so it's easy to clear that.

As for Stolbova and Bukin, maybe it was a clerical error as the Russians said. It's entirely possible, especially since this isn't a list of bans - it's a list of athletes attending. I'm sure there's mistakes due to clerical errors for other countries as well, but that those errors aren't released because the other countries aren't going through a highly scrutinized IOC process.
If this isn't due to a clerical error, then the IOC needs to explain why they did this. There's no logical reason we can think of, but we don't have the evidence the IOC does. So those with the evidence - the IOC - need to explain their decision.

 

[Prancer]

If they had strong evidence of doping--sufficient for a suspension or ban--then they should have already been suspended or banned from competition. Or if WADA/IOC just figured out that they have strong evidence, then a suspension or ban for all competitions should be forthcoming. Lacking that, yes, it seems that the evidence is not strong.

As has been pointed out repeatedly in this thread, strong evidence of doping is not required.

And has also been pointed out repeatedly in this thread, we don't know what evidence they are using.

The point, however, had nothing to do with the particulars of Stolbova and Bukin's situation.

This absolutely! Now that Stolbova is banned the US will win gold in pairs!!!!!!!

 

[Andrey aka Pushkin]

And you know it's a witch hunt how???

Or did it become a witch hunt when it impacted athletes you like?

Sorry, but I expect it's not a witch hunt and that there are reasons. The IOC has no real desire to keep athletes out, otherwise they wouldn't have come up with this bizarre OAR idea. They would have just banned everyone!

No, this is not a witch hunt.
This is a simple and criminal incompetency on the part of the IOC.
I don't think they are looking to harm Russian athletes. They are just incompetent idiots who don't have the slightest idea about the individual sports and don't care to learn.

There's no doubt in my mind that Russia had some idiotic doping scheme to win medals in Sochi. I know Russia.
There's also no doubt in my mind that Stolbova or Bukin didn't do anything wrong. I know figure skating.

What I do have a doubt about now is whether IOC's decisions regarding other Russian athletes really have any basis. For me the IOC has just completely discredited itself.

 

[caseyedwards]

No.

The fair process is that international bodies conduct regular drug testing... and individual athletes who fail must face disciplinary action which is fair and consistent across countries.

This process assumes countries/federations are supportive of international drug testing procedures and certainly do not interfere with the integrity of the drug testing process with a view to altering results.

RUS failed in that regard so consequently, their athletes will need to be vetted through a special process to be able to compete. Should other countries be found to be interfering in the same manner their athletes will need special clearance as well.

But this is why for all of 2016 and 2017 Russian athletes have been tested by UKAD and their own sports federations.

 

[Erin]

I have mixed feelings on this. On the one hand, if there were doping violations (and rumors have been swirling about Stolbova for a long time), then why have they been allowed to compete all this time. Unless the doping violations have just come to light recently, I would think that they should have been banned previously. So something does seem suspicious and smell funny about this.

That said, if this were a giant conspiracy against Russia, I feel like there would be bigger targets to take down than either Stolbova or Bukin, neither of whom are likely medal contenders at this point. Maybe one of them would compete in one segment in the team event, but if they are banned, they'll probably be replaced by a better team member. So if they were being taken out as part of a vast Western conspiracy against Russian figure skaters, the conspirators chose poorly.

All of which adds up to, I don't know what to think about this.

I'm not sure if this officially qualifies as a witch hunt, though. It's arguable. Somebody should ask Maya Usova as if I remember right she is an expert on witches.

I think it all depends on whether you think Stolbova and Bukin are witches or not.

 

[Carolla5501]

No, this is not a witch hunt.
This is a simple and criminal incompetency on the part of the IOC.
I don't think they are looking to harm Russian athletes. They are just incompetent idiots who don't have the slightest idea about the individual sports and don't care to learn.

There's no doubt in my mind that Russia had some idiotic doping scheme to win medals in Sochi. I know Russia.
There's also no doubt in my mind that Stolbova or Bukin didn't do anything wrong. I know figure skating.

What I do have a doubt about now is whether IOC's decisions regarding other Russian athletes really have any basis. For me the IOC has just completely discredited itself.

And there's no doubt in my mind that Ina/Zimmerman did anything wrong. But our "minds" are not relevant. The facts are. The fact is Ina did not take a mandatory drug test and was suspended. We don't know what the facts are here and may not ever know but that doesn't change them and our "minds" are not at all relevant.




I am not sure without knowing the facts you know that the IOC is incompetent idiots. I expect that if they had banned someone you didn't like you would think the IOC is made up of brilliant individuals LOL!

 

[coppertop1]

It’s clear Canada will be happy about this. They’ve also been propagating this “conspiracy” against V/M that they’re being cheated (like they did in Sochi, btw).

Excuse me? Yes, point at another country as the bad guy. As a Canadian, I find this insulting. Most Canadians want fair competition. We want all clean and athletes there. Don't paint people with a broad brush. People who thought the Ice Dance in Sochi was rigged are likely those who always believe figure skating is rigged.

 

[MAXSwagg]

Excuse me? Yes, point at another country as the bad guy. As a Canadian, I find this insulting. Most Canadians want fair competition. We want all clean and athletes there. Don't paint people with a broad brush. People who thought the Ice Dance in Sochi was rigged are likely those who always believe figure skating is rigged.

Canada's figure skating commentators allude to it often, which is why i do not watch dance with CBC commentary. You're trying to tell me it's benevolent? Should they be happy? Should they not be happy? That's not for me to decide. A win is a win. I doubt they would want to win by being helped by (at this point) some funny business with no proof or explanations but it's just that: a win so of course they will be happy.

 

[MarieM]

No, this is not a witch hunt.
This is a simple and criminal incompetency on the part of the IOC.
I don't think they are looking to harm Russian athletes. They are just incompetent idiots who don't have the slightest idea about the individual sports and don't care to learn.

There's no doubt in my mind that Russia had some idiotic doping scheme to win medals in Sochi. I know Russia.
There's also no doubt in my mind that Stolbova or Bukin didn't do anything wrong. I know figure skating.

What I do have a doubt about now is whether IOC's decisions regarding other Russian athletes really have any basis. For me the IOC has just completely discredited itself.

Exactly. That process was wrong from the time it started.

 

[casken]

Could Bukin really have been stupid enough to blow off a mandatory test in this environment? This is all just so stunning.

 

[skategal]

Canada's figure skating commentators allude to it often, which is why i do not watch dance with CBC commentary.

How do you know that they allude to it if you don't watch it?

Or are you basing your opinions on what a few posters say on FSU?

I don't remember any Canadian commentators this season saying that V/M were robbed of anything.

 

[MAXSwagg]

How do you know that they allude to it if you don't watch it?

Or are you basing your opinions on what a few posters say on FSU?

I don't remember any Canadian commentators this season saying that V/M were robbed of anything.

Don't be ridiculous. Obviously I stopped AFTER, and especially after it was hinted at in one of PJ Kwong+Kurt+Carol Behind the Boards recaps. Even apart from this, Carol Lane's "performance" during Rostelecom is enough.

 

[MAXSwagg]

Could Bukin really have been stupid enough to blow off a mandatory test in this environment? This is all just so stunning.

Seems unlikely. But we do not know, and may never know. At this point, "authorities" are releasing things without any evidence or explanation. So everyone can believe what they will. I just do not understand how this information is published seemingly without any process.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I am reminded of Bereznaja's ban in 2000 for taking a banned cough mixture, when she and Sikharulidze were stripped of their European title.

I wonder if their recent European medals will be retro-actively awarded to the French and Italian teams?

 

[caseyedwards]

I have mixed feelings on this. On the one hand, if there were doping violations (and rumors have been swirling about Stolbova for a long time), then why have they been allowed to compete all this time. Unless the doping violations have just come to light recently, I would think that they should have been banned previously. So something does seem suspicious and smell funny about this.

That said, if this were a giant conspiracy against Russia, I feel like there would be bigger targets to take down than either Stolbova or Bukin, neither of whom are likely medal contenders at this point. Maybe one of them would compete in one segment in the team event, but if they are banned, they'll probably be replaced by a better team member. So if they were being taken out as part of a vast Western conspiracy against Russian figure skaters, the conspirators chose poorly.

All of which adds up to, I don't know what to think about this.



I think it all depends on whether you think Stolbova and Bukin are witches or not.

Of course they could have banned zagitova Medvedeva but do they really have to go that high to cause chaos and awful performances from all Russian skaters?

 

[MAXSwagg]

I am reminded of Bereznaja's ban in 2000 for taking a banned cough mixture, when she and Sikharulidze were stripped of their European title.

I wonder if their recent European medals will be retro-actively awarded to the French and Italian teams?

Why? There's no proof she or Fedor was taking anything during that time. And as the statement said, we don't even know if it has anything to do with doping or not.

 

[barbarafan]

I have mixed feelings on this. On the one hand, if there were doping violations (and rumors have been swirling about Stolbova for a long time), then why have they been allowed to compete all this time. Unless the doping violations have just come to light recently, I would think that they should have been banned previously. So something does seem suspicious and smell funny about this.

That said, if this were a giant conspiracy against Russia, I feel like there would be bigger targets to take down than either Stolbova or Bukin, neither of whom are likely medal contenders at this point. Maybe one of them would compete in one segment in the team event, but if they are banned, they'll probably be replaced by a better team member. So if they were being taken out as part of a vast Western conspiracy against Russian figure skaters, the conspirators chose poorly.

All of which adds up to, I don't know what to think about this.



I think it all depends on whether you think Stolbova and Bukin are witches or not.

I have never read anything about Stolbova & drugs. Were there rumors?

 

[caseyedwards]

I have never read anything about Stolbova & drugs. Were there rumors?

It’s not rumors! Mclaren very clearly states a female skater who won gold and silver medals had her bottle tampered with and had too much salt in the urine. Only Stolbova fits.

 

[kwanette]

Urine samples for skater came from 2 different people. DNA involved. If you follow The skating Lesson on FB, the info is there...from documents.

 

[Erin]

I have never read anything about Stolbova & drugs. Were there rumors?

There was a rumor in the original McLaren report thread. She was not the only figure skater mentioned. I didn't put a lot of credence in it at the time. If there was something behind it, that was quite a while ago and it seems a long time for no action.

 

[BlueRidge]

Okay so those in the know about these things who can explain about Stolbova, could you please explain about Ivan Bukin?