Is Michelle Kwan overrated

[bumblebeevich]

There were no real rivalries in the Kwan era at all. Only the 13 month Kwan-Lipinski one which only existed due to Kwan bombing Nationals in 97, and the Kwan-Slutskaya one which the ISU invented since the field was so pathetic those years they literally had to invent a rival for Kwan with heavy politiking for Slutskaya, something even Kwan fans constantly state and whine about to this day so they themselves are in total agreement. What else was there, Butyrskaya vs Kwan, Suguri vs Kwan, Arakawa vs Suguri in Japan, Sokolova vs Slutskaya in Russia, Robinson vs Michelle Currie in Canada, LOL!

Contrast to the the 10 previous years where you have numerous AMAZING rivalries: Kim vs Asada, Asada vs Ando, Kim vs Ando, Sotnikova vs Lipnitskaya, Ando vs Rochette, Asada vs Rochette, Medvedeva vs Zagitova, Pogorilaya vs Medvedeva. Or the years previous to the Kwan era where you had Witt vs Thomas, Thomas vs Trenary, Witt vs Manley, Manely vs Thomas, Ito vs Trenary, Yamaguchi vs Ito, Yamaguchi vs Harding, Harding vs Kerrigan, Kerrigan vs Baiul, Bonaly vs Baiul, Chen vs Bonaly, again an endless list.

 

[VGThuy]

Was Kim and Asada really a rivalry after 2008 Worlds though? It seems starting from the 2008-2009 season and beyond it was just the Kim show with the judges with Kim having to make major errors for Asada to have a chance.

 

[bumblebeevich]

Asada beat Kim atleast once every single season. She beat her at the 2009 Grand Prix final on home ice, and she beat her at the 2010 worlds. They were certainly always a rivalry, atleast the whole 2007-2010 quad. Everytime Kim won it was because Asada made errors too so it works both ways really. And the only time they had a close contest where both had similar errors at the 2008 worlds the judges gave it to Asada with way higher PCS and higher GOE so if anything it seems she was the judges favorite more than Kim all things equal. The only thing that would oppose that is the short program scoring of the 2010 Olympics but Mao did not do her triple axel cleanly or well really, it was pre rotated and cheated (though not enough for an underrotation call) with a shaky landing, and with an equal or marginally lower base value on it and Kim doing her triple lutz-triple toe outstandingly, it makes sense she was way behind.

They were certainly more of a rivalry than the much hyped non rivalries like Kwan vs Cohen, Kwan vs Butyrskaya, Slutskaya vs Suguri, or Slutskaya vs Sokolova.

 

[Miki89]

So Michelle is the only skater in the last two decades that did not have tough competition....lol
Was never a Irina fan but I believe it is insulting to label her a rival invented by the ISU. I believe she was better than many of the skaters you listed in the last decade: Ando, most of the new Russian skaters, and arguably, in terms of a being a competitor, Rochette.

Was Kim and Asada really a rivalry after 2008 Worlds though? It seems starting from the 2008-2009 season and beyond it was just the Kim show with the judges with Kim having to make major errors for Asada to have a chance.

The height of the rivalry was around 2005-2008, which is a still a good amount of time. I would say it was still close until 2008 GPF, with Kim having the edge. They both made major errors at the competition but PCS wasn't that far apart. From 2009 and on, Mao became more inconsistent and her programs in the season pre-Vancouver really made her fell out of favor with the judges. Not to mention the rule changes favored Kim, especially before additional tweaking took place for base value and GOE scaling. I remembered GOEs were freely applied without taking into account the difficulty of the jumps. This was very advantageous to Kim who earned major points in GOEs. Looking back, it is very interesting that after Vancouver, during a period where she essentially had no rivals, Kim only managed to win one major title. Yes, I have heard many times from fans this could all be discounted by Olympic burnout (2010), inadequate preparation (2011) and controversial scoring (2014).

Yet why can't outside factors be equally considered when evaluating Kwan's career? I personally feel Kwan competed against rivals who were fierce competitors, if not necessarily great skaters. Lipinski and Irina were tough competitors, which makes it hard for me to believe she had an easier time defeating them. In contrast, besides Kim, none of the early COP ladies were as strong mentally. Mao was always a bit nervous as a competitor, especially in later years. Kostner, Rochette, Ando were all inconsistent. I agree that she definitely faced a field with greater skaters, but that doesn't necessarily equate with strong competitors.

 

[David21]

Contrast to the the 10 previous years where you have numerous AMAZING rivalries: Kim vs Asada, Asada vs Ando, Kim vs Ando, Sotnikova vs Lipnitskaya, Ando vs Rochette, Asada vs Rochette, Medvedeva vs Zagitova, Pogorilaya vs Medvedeva.

Ando vs Rochette, Asada vs Rochette amazing rivalries

 

[VGThuy]

All I remember is that after 2009 4CC, it wasn't really close in PCS and GOE between Asada and Kim again. 2010 Olympics was a coronation for Kim. Asada almost lost the silver to Rochette.

 

[bardtoob]

So Michelle is the only skater in the last two decades that did not have tough competition....lol

 

[bumblebeevich]

Again Asada beat Kim at the 2008-2009 season grand prix final in KOREA. She beat her again at the 2010 Worlds. If she was not a rival how on earth did she post atleast one win over her every season from 2005-2010, and every single time at a major event, GPF or higher, to boot. If that is not a rival, I don't know what is, by that tough of standards none of the greats have ever had a rival probably. Especialy in a comparision to Kwan who I have heard jokes like Suguri and Butyrskaya who couldn't beat Kwan (or Kim) even once if they faced her/them for 20 years, or technically once for Maria on a weekend Kwan had a wicked flu and could not even land a double axel once in 2 combined programs; passed off as actual "rivals".

Yes the 2010 Olympics, so what Kim skated absolutely amazing there which even a non fan could admit, and Mao was off in the long program, and skating a hideous Tarasova program which was probably her worst ever, with awful music, and even complete with even a hideous costume and makeup. The 98 U.S Nationals where Kwan was amazing was not close, does that mean Tara is not a worthy rival, LOL! And for that matter except for the 98 Olympics every time Tara beat Michelle, Michelle skated just awful, not just small mistakes, but many huge falls and errors to lose (sometimes barely even with those- 96/97 grand prix final, 97 worlds), but I wouldn't discount Tara as a worthy rival to Kwan during her blip of a career inspite of that.

I stated Slutskaya as being deemed a rival invented for Kwan by the ISU so Kwan would have some competition or type of legit rival on the basis that Kwan fans themselves said that many times I saw on this forum, particularly in the late 2000s/early 2010s when Slutskaya and Kwan had both recently retired/confirmed they were for good done. Some individuals who said this with frequency would include Maximillian, Giselle, Japanfan, kwanatic, and I believe VIETgrlTerifa, who can probably right now (as one I recall saying this and being part of this talk i am referencing) confirm I in fact just stating fact here. So if you take issue with that stance take it up with the Kwan fans themselves, not with me, I am simply reiterating what they have said and implied many times, although I think it is atleast partly true anyway which is why I have no problem going along with that rational anyhow.

Slutskaya vs Ando? I don't think it is clear whom is the better skater. Both are 2 time World Champions. Both are 2 time Olympic dissapointments. Both are far more technical/jumping beans than they are not artistic, in fact neither is generally regarded as an artist or stylish skater at all. Comparing them though:

jumps- Ando easily. The skater with the best and most consistent triple lutz-triple loop ever with a skater who barely ever lands a clean triple-triple high up on her toe pick with no flow, and can never pull them out when they matter.

spins/non jump elements- Slutskaya IMO.

basic skating- about tied, Slutskaya has more speed, but Ando better quality edging and basics.

artistry- Ando easily. As she grew into an adult she atleast developed some sense of musicality and style, which never existed in Irina's skating.

So Ando I would say is atleast on the same level or better. She also beat Asada and Kim to win both her world titles which Irina who couldn't even beat a 15 year old Mao Asada at Irina's peak to win the GPF could have never managed, so that seems to confirm that Ando is likely better if anything. The main difference though is Irina was hands down 1 of the 2 dominant and best skaters of the Kwan era though along with Kwan herself, while Ando is something like way down 5th or 6th best of the Kim/Asada era.

Also on what planet did Kim have no rival after 2010 Olympics!?! Particularly in the context that Kwan of all people had a bunch of rivals supposably, ROTFL!! In addition to Asada who only won 2 worlds, a grand prix final, and a 3rd world medal after the 2010 Olympics, you have Kostner who everytime out after her 2012 world win was considered a huge contender for gold and was considered this at each of the 2013 worlds, 2014 Olympics, and 2014 worlds too, unless you were living under a rock. Kostner skated better at the 2014 Olympics than Kwan herself ever has at the Olympics, and still could not beat Kim, but she sure as heck was a legit rival. The slew of strong Russians which were coming on the scene. The multi World Champion Ando who won her 2nd world title and numerous other titles/medals in 2010-2011, and came close to beating Kim at the grand prix final right before the Vancouver Olympics too. That is just very bad trolling, sorry. Although if Kim is somehow so strong that 2012-2014 Kostner can be deemed not even a rival to Kim, I guess that is implying (by this logic) Kim must be way better than Kwan, as she sure as heck would be a big rival to Kwan, and much bigger than anyone Kwan faced outside of Lipinski of 97-98 and Slutskaya of 2000-2002.

Why is Kim even such a subject of discussion in this thread though? It is a thread about Kwan and looking back at the thread starters original post Kim isn't even mentioned much in it, but whatever. I guess it is due to that someone like Miki89 is a butthurt Mao lover, and judging by the name MIKI probably a butthurt Miki Ando fan too, although apparently one willing to throw his/her beloved Miki under the bus completely in favor of a clunky skater like Irina just to win an argument which almost makes me feel bad for Miki.

 

[VGThuy]

I didn't read the essay that is basically an argument why Kim is the best skater ever who had to face the most difficult competition of all of skating history (which means Sotnikova who managed to beat a clean Kim even with a stumble on a jump must be the best ladies skater ever). I think it's selective to use two wins Asada had when Kim underperformed while saying all the wins Slutskaya had over Kwan were just fabricated by the ISU. Whether or not one thinks Slute's wins over Kwan were legitimate the fact is that they happened and the judges wanted them to happen, so Kwan had to fight against that. Anyway, we all know after 2009 4CC if both Mao and Yuna skated cleanly, which skater would have gotten the GOEs and PCSs to win in a head-to-head. But let's continue to pretend that Kwan didn't have any rivalries and that she had it so much easier setting the standard of 7 clean triple performances for ten years uninterrupted while fighting off younger, healthier skaters in a judging system where one fall or one stumble could really put one out of contention (especially in the SP).

 

[montrealsurfa]

Not too overrated by judges, I dont recall her having too many controversial medals, just the occasional gifts most big names get, but overrated by announcers and some people like that. People like Christine Brennan are crazy biased to her. Her whole Edge of Glory book is ruined in that it is basically little more than a Kwan memorial than a real book.

 

[VGThuy]

How many multisyllabic lower-cased usernames with a 100 or so posts (give or take) are going to come out of the woodwork to make their annual appearance in the latest version of this thread to keep this conversation going?

 

[Miki89]

But let's continue to pretend that Kwan didn't have any rivalries and that she had it so much easier setting the standard of 7 clean triple performances for ten years uninterrupted while fighting off younger, healthier skaters in a judging system where one fall or one stumble could really put one out of contention (especially in the SP).

ITA. Kwan faced Sasha, Irina, Lu Chen (in her prime), Tara, Sarah. Other than Lulu, who was a great rival in 1996 and it was definitely not a walk in the park for Michelle when she won her first title, she had to fend off younger, upcoming rivals almost all of her career. These skaters had more difficult jumps or more difficult spins. Michelle was able to defeat them by continuing to polish her skating and maintaining the most difficult content she was able to do. Very few skaters have been able to do this for so long imo. And to use the bogus argument that it was because the field was weak is also an insult to all her peers who have made their marks in skating history and are all Olympic/World Champions/Medalists.

 

[Miki89]

Why is Kim even such a subject of discussion in this thread though? It is a thread about Kwan and looking back at the thread starters original post Kim isn't even mentioned much in it, but whatever. I guess it is due to that someone like Miki89 is a butthurt Mao lover, and judging by the name MIKI probably a butthurt Miki Ando fan too, although apparently one willing to throw his/her beloved Miki under the bus completely in favor of a clunky skater like Irina just to win an argument which almost makes me feel bad for Miki.

Her name was mentioned like 100 times from the original poster before he/she got banned. And I think you should know since you two are pretty close no?

 

[bumblebeevich]

OK so Asada, Ando, Kostner, all count as non rivals and weak competition for Kim who according to the grand skating expert Miki89 served as no competition for Yu Na Kim after 08. However Sasha, Lu, Sarah, Tara, and Irina who are clearly all much weaker skaters than all of those (except for maybe an argument for only Irina and Tara vs only Ando) are really strong competition and big rivals and to say otherwise is an insult. April Fools isnt for another couple months honey but nice try.

And except for the 96 worlds where most believe and still say today Chen was robbed, and even at a site like this which is practically KwanLoversForum.com Chen handily won the poll on who should have won the 96 worlds, Chen was a far weaker skater than she had been from 92-95 at every single other competition she did from 96-97. She bombed the entire rest of the 95-96 season, and by 98 was a technically defective skater even if she skated cleanly, to the point even skating her best she barely beat out a subpar Butyrskaya who had her worst LP technically and artistically of the whole season, and Slutskaya in her worst slump ever, for the 98 Olympic bronze. It did not matter if she was artistically improved, but she was no longer a technically good skater after 96, and bombing every outing but 1 in the 96 season too.

 

[olympic]

I think you can breakdown the Kwan rivalries as follows. Some were close and some were not:

Kwan v. Bobek - 1995
Kwan v. Lulu - 1996
Kwan v. Lipinski - 1997-1998
Kwan v. Slutskaya - 2000-2002
Kwan v. Cohen - 2003-2005

Hughes was less of a true rival and more of a blip for the SLC Olympic season, beating Kwan twice at '01 SC and the Olympics themselves. But was essentially out of the picture afterwards.

Butyrskaya was also a blip for 1999 and maybe 2000. She beat an ill Kwan at '99 Worlds and was a probable worthy rival until botching the LP at '00 Worlds, then she faded. The Russian Fed did her no favors by promoting Slute which buried Bute and ensured she was not the rival to Kwan her teammate would be.

 

[bardtoob]

OK so Asada, Ando, Kostner, all count as non rivals and weak competition for Kim who according to the grand skating expert Miki89 served as no competition for Yu Na Kim after 08. However Sasha, Lu, Sarah, Tara, and Irina who are clearly all much weaker skaters than all of those (except for maybe an argument for only Irina and Tara vs only Ando) are really strong competition and big rivals and to say otherwise is an insult. April Fools isnt for another couple months honey but nice try.

And except for the 96 worlds where most believe and still say today Chen was robbed, and even at a site like this which is practically KwanLoversForum.com Chen handily won the poll on who should have won the 96 worlds, Chen was a far weaker skater than she had been from 92-95 at every single other competition she did from 96-97. She bombed the entire rest of the 95-96 season, and by 98 was a technically defective skater even if she skated cleanly, to the point even skating her best she barely beat out a subpar Butyrskaya who had her worst LP technically and artistically of the whole season, and Slutskaya in her worst slump ever, for the 98 Olympic bronze. It did not matter if she was artistically improved, but she was no longer a technically good skater after 96, and bombing every outing but 1 in the 96 season too.

This makes no sense. How can Chen Lu receiving a rating higher than Michelle Kwan on this board prove that "Michelle Kwan is overrated"?

It sounds like Michelle received a rating, and that rating is lower than Chen Lu. Michelle can not be "overrated" if her rating is lower than the skater she is being compared to.

 

[kwanette]

I was one who preferred Mao over Kim, but had no illusions about who was more talented! Asada was the jumper I liked; sorta like Surya or Irina compared to MK! The only chance she had to win would be to skate perfectly and nail her 3 Axel with more than a couple errors from Yuna unfortunately! Mao performed 3 Axels over her SP & LP, but it didn't matter; Kim had the Olympics and those World titles sown up except when she made those errors dropping her to 3rd place! Even then, it was explained away that she "had to be injured!"

To even mention Surya or Irina in the same breath as Mao...

 

[MAXSwagg]

To even mention Surya or Irina in the same breath as Mao...

I know. Outrageous.

 

[Fiero425]

^^Get over yourselves!

 

[chapis]

Agree. Mao was not the jumper, she was the complete skater. I prefer to Mao and I think that she is the best skater ever, but honestly, that rivalry (Mao-Yuna) was distinguished by having two very complete skaters, unlike many rivalries.

 

[Fiero425]

Agree. Mao was not the jumper, she was the complete skater. I prefer to Mao and I think that she is the best skater ever, but honestly, that rivalry (Mao-Yuna) was distinguished by having two very complete skaters.

Well I well know she wound up not be the real jumper type I liked! She kept trying that 3-Axel and it wasn't happening! She could have won or stayed close to the GOLD if she had just skated with the skills she acquired over the years! She wound up being at a disadvantage at every event attempting a jump she couldn't succeed in doing anymore! Someone should have shaken her to understand the shortcomings of even trying it after a while; esp. in the Short Program!

 

[chapis]

Well I well know she wound up not be the real jumper type I liked! She kept trying that 3-Axel and it wasn't happening! She could have won or stayed close to the GOLD if she had just skated with the skills she acquired over the years! She wound up being at a disadvantage at every event attempting a jump she couldn't succeed in doing anymore! Someone should have shaken her to understand the shortcomings of even trying it after a while; esp. in the Short Program!

Mao landed THREE 3a at the olympics, no less, FOUR if you count Sochi, and multiple times on other competitions, nobody else can say the same, she made history. And she did it without sacrifice her artistry. No mention that THE performance of Sochi was Mao´s LP.

 

[Fiero425]

Mao landed THREE 3a at the olympics, no less, and multiple times on other competitions, nobody else can say the same, she made history. And she did it without sacrifice her artistry. No mention that THE performance of Sochi was Mao´s LP.

Excuse me, but I well know her accomplishments! After those Olympics she wasn't able to get the job done! I was talking about time and time again she failed at that 3-Axel causing her not to even be in the running for a medal! I'm sure you remember those and not hark back to when she was successful at it! We all know she made history, but it was way back; SORRY! Still love her to death, but thought I made it clear of her shortcomings after those GAMES!

 

[chapis]

Excuse me, but I well know her accomplishments! After those Olympics she wasn't able to get the job done! I was talking about time and time again she failed at that 3-Axel causing her not to even be in the running for a medal! I'm sure you remember those and not hark back to when she was successful at it! We all know she made history, but it was way back; SORRY! Still love her to death, but thought I made it clear of her shortcomings after those GAMES!

After those GAMES her mom got seriously ill and she died in 2011, Mao was super close with her mom, you probably noticed that she lost a lot of weight. I think that was the main problem, not the 3a. And how judges were being so harsh with her. Because they never overlooked anything with Mao as they do with Carolina, Satoko or Evgenia.

I know that Mao was not the strongest (mentally), her SP at Sochi was totally self-sabotage, but she still was able to show a great program in the LP, probably the best program of women in Sochi. And it was not technically or artistically easy or deficient.

 

[Fiero425]

After those GAMES her mom got seriously ill and she died in 2011, Mao was super close with her mom, you probably noticed that she lost a lot of weight. I think that was the main problem, not the 3a. And how judges were being so harsh with her. Because they never overlooked anything with Mao as they do with Carolina, Satoko or Evgenia.

I know that Mao was not the strongest (mentally), her SP at Sochi was totally self-sabotage, but she still was able to show a great program in the LP, probably the best program of women in Sochi. And it was not technically or artistically easy or deficient.

Thanks for the info! I had no idea; rarely keeping up with backstories!

 

[Susan Bernard]

No...not overrated. I attended her first Nationals as a senior in Detroit as well as most of her World appearances. She had a special presence, a special magic on the ice that transcended measurement. Perhaps not the best technician or the most artistic but nevertheless very, very special.

 

[VolosozharGOAT]

Regarding Kim vs Mao I dont know how Kim ever receiving higher GOE or PCS than Asada is supposably a sign of bias to Kim. Kim does most definitely deserve higher GOE on jumps for instance, her jumps are generally of much higher quality than Mao's, with only a few exceptions like the double axel where they are about equal. If Kim regularly got higher GOEs on say spirals or the layback spin than Mao I could see the argument, but this does not happen. As for PCS in 2006-2008 Mao generally got equal or higher PCS than Yu Na, so if anything the judges preferred her pre Tarasova. Then Mao went to Tarasova who gave her awful programs and ruined her artistry, so it is no surprise Kim got higher PCS in 2009-2010 imparticular and deservedly so. Can anyone seriously say those trainwreck programs Mao skated in Vancouver should have have gotten higher PCS than Kim? Her LP that season was just ugly and weird even when skated well, and if werent for her name in the sport would deservedly have gotten lower PCS than people like Nagasu and Rochette too, but since her name was Mao Asada got 2nd highest to Kim probably undeservedly, which helped preserve her silver despite the mistakes (along with the triple axels).

 

[StasiyaGalustyanLove]

Kwan is my second favorite skater of all time after Galustyan! The idea that someone could say she is overrated makes me so upset that I am crying in a bathroom!

 

[MAXSwagg]

Regarding Kim vs Mao I dont know how Kim ever receiving higher GOE or PCS than Asada is supposably a sign of bias to Kim. Kim does most definitely deserve higher GOE on jumps for instance, her jumps are generally of much higher quality than Mao's, with only a few exceptions like the double axel where they are about equal. If Kim regularly got higher GOEs on say spirals or the layback spin than Mao I could see the argument, but this does not happen. As for PCS in 2006-2008 Mao generally got equal or higher PCS than Yu Na, so if anything the judges preferred her pre Tarasova. Then Mao went to Tarasova who gave her awful programs and ruined her artistry, so it is no surprise Kim got higher PCS in 2009-2010 imparticular and deservedly so. Can anyone seriously say those trainwreck programs Mao skated in Vancouver should have have gotten higher PCS than Kim? Her LP that season was just ugly and weird even when skated well, and if werent for her name in the sport would deservedly have gotten lower PCS than people like Nagasu and Rochette too, but since her name was Mao Asada got 2nd highest to Kim probably undeservedly, which helped preserve her silver despite the mistakes (along with the triple axels).

You’re escalating!

 

[travismoncton]

Yeah Mao's 2009-2010 season LP was plain awful in terms of choreography and packaging and PCS was grossly inflated for it. When you add the mistakes the huge PCS she got for it was even worse. I cant believe there are some clowns arguing she deserved to win the 2010 Olympics, now that is a first. Just when you think you had heard it all, LOL! I would have given the silver to Rochette personally, but I guess the judges were scared of being accused of biased due to home ice and Joannie's Mom dying just before so gave it to Mao.