Is Michelle Kwan overrated

[slipchuk]

Malinina was not actually clean in the short. She had a turn between her triple lutz and double toe. Without that turn out I am 100% sure she is 2nd to Butyrskaya in the short and the silver medalist even if she is still 3rd behind Kwan in the long. As it was her 3rd in the LP and 5th in the short combined kept her behind bronze medalist Soldatova who is one of the poorest skaters to ever in a world medal, and mysteriously dropped to like 17th in the world once she switched from Russia to Belarus even though her skating basically remained the same. Malinina was still robbed bigtime to behind Kwan who had a way bigger mistake and not even a good overall skate that night, especialy as she was the recent GPF Champion and should have had some clout of her own. She is from Uzbekistan, a tiny country with a practically non existant federation who pays almost no money into the ISU, contrasted to both the U.S and Russia who pay a lot of the ISU revenue and throw a lot of the caviar and cocktail parties ex judge Joe Jackson speaks of in his book.

 

[Fiero425]

Malinina was not actually clean in the short. She had a turn between her triple lutz and double toe. Without that turn out I am 100% sure she is 2nd to Butyrskaya in the short and the silver medalist even if she is still 3rd behind Kwan in the long. As it was her 3rd in the LP and 5th in the short combined kept her behind bronze medalist Soldatova who is one of the poorest skaters to ever in a world medal, and mysteriously dropped to like 17th in the world once she switched from Russia to Belarus even though her skating basically remained the same. Malinina was still robbed bigtime to behind Kwan who had a way bigger mistake and not even a good overall skate that night, especialy as she was the recent GPF Champion and should have had some clout of her own. She is from Uzbekistan, a tiny country with a practically non existant federation who pays almost no money into the ISU, contrasted to both the U.S and Russia who pay a lot of the ISU revenue and throw a lot of the caviar and cocktail parties ex judge Joe Jackson speaks of in his book.

Well she had to be cleaner than Kwan! I barely remember since almost 20 years ago, but I seem to recall MK's Axel was singled in the SP, then in the LP she had a turnout or was unbalanced on her Lutz combo! Anybody? I definitely believe Kwan was held up! The only time I agreed with such a thing was probably in '02 SLC! Plushenko blew his combination in the short program and was kept in 4th place to keep him in the running! I knew he wouldn't win due to the ordinal system where Plushenko would not only have to win the LP, 2 other skaters would have to beat Alexei as well! Yagudin had no pressure on him and skated well, getting the final 6.0's of the skating era!

 

[UGG]

MAXSwaag, the 2007 Worlds result was certainly not controversial, nor wrong. I was never a fan of Ando and far prefer Asada and her skating to Andos but Asada had a giant short program mistake which cost her roughly 10 points, and in the long two two footed landings and one underotation which probably cost a minimum of 8 points total. It is silly to say she was thus robbed vs Ando skating two perfectly clean programs with a total of 10 triples and a triple lutz-triple loop in both. Asada got much higher PCS, and even higher GOE on her clean jumps (which she did not deserve in many cases) than Ando, so the judges could not have done anymore for her than they did and it still was not enough. Asada has most certainly not even arguably deserved any Olympic or World win she did not get, and her 2008 Worlds win is at best debated as many thought it should have gone to either Kim or Nakano (the crowd at that event certainly thought Nakano). Any of the minor PCS she has on occasion gotten has never denied her of a single important win or medal so it is just useless yarn spinning at the end of the day to complain.

UGG if you were capable of reading basic english you would note I said more than once I am not even a fan of Kim, and note I mentioned a ton of different skaters and not just Kim. If you search my posting history (if that is not too difficult a task for you) you would note I rarely talk about Kim at all. Nor do I dislike Kwan, I like atleast equally as much as Yu Na Kim, neither who is a favorite of mine, I love how you come to the ridiculous conclusion anyone who objectively thinks Kwan is overrated or not the almighty queen of the sport must be a Yu Na fangirl, ROTFL!!! Also for your information the opening post took me only 10 minutes to write and took very little thought, was incredibly easy to write as it was just relaying basic thoughts, perhaps you were thinking it would have taken you 2 hours to write and come up with which I can understand, but definitely not I.

Correct. It would have taken me 2 hours because I don’t think about skaters I dislike enough to write some long @$$ post I actually have a life.

 

[bardtoob]

Oh, this is all about somebody thinking Michelle is more highly rated than Yuna

Yuna has Olympic Gold and Silver and has a net worth of $21 million.

Michelle has Olympic Silver and Bronze and has a net with of $13 million.

Yuna has won the "Rated Game", so now let us turn our attention back to Michelle

 

[lala]

Oh, this is all about somebody thinking Michelle is more highly rated than Yuna

Yuna has Olympic Gold and Silver and has a net worth of $21 million.

Michelle has Olympic Silver and Bronze and has a net with of $13 million.

Yuna has won the "Rated Game", so now let us turn our attention back to Michelle

Yuna has only $21 million.... I thought she earned more money..Korea is crazy about her..

 

[bardtoob]

Yuna has only $21 million.... I thought she earned more money..Korea is crazy about her..

Yeah, that sounds low to me also but it still proved my point, Yuna is richer.

 

[kwanette]

It's very true that Mao consistently had more transitions and multidirectional skating than Yuna, who did something like 40-50 crossovers(!!!!!!) in a LP. And it also extends to why Yuna and Carolina and pretty much every other top lady regularly got the benefit of the doubt on PCS when they bombed (and lord knows Carolina has had numerous atomic bombs) and got 72+ for crap skates, when Mao for her best skates got over 70 in a LP, like, once I think. She didn't even get over 36 for her WR SP (which is still the standard, imo)...IN JAPAN!

Michelle is not over-rated, I don't think. Looking back, for me, she was far above the field when it came to what we now call program components, especially 1997-2002 period. The skating skills, the aplomb, the overall quality was just unmatched, and the general choreography and SUBSTANTIVE and MEANINGFUL program construction. Her credentials also speak for themselves. The only person who maybe rivals it is Mao, and they both had their Olympic disappointments. Michelle's consistency is also a thing to be marveled at, though I don't understand why she never increased her tech. Not even a measly 3T+3T? I had her winning in 1998 Oly but I see the argument for Tara, who did the extraordinarily difficult 3Lo+3Lo (even if they were very pre-rotated) and very difficult 3T+1Lo+3S, both in the second half. That is massive technical, even for today. Poor strategy on Michelle's team's part...

Lest we forget MK's injury.

 

[slipchuk]

Fiero452, it seems to be a pattern when the judges want to hold up the big name who falls in the short they always place them in exactly 4th, irregardless the quality of performances from the others. Ito 92 Olympics, Browning 92 Olympics, Kwan 99 worlds, Stojko 2000 worlds Plushenko 02 Olympics, Slutskaya 98 worlds, etc... When you are a big star who falls in the short that they do not want to hold you up they place you in either 6th or 7th or 8th, usually 7th- Slutskaya 07 worlds, Stojko 96 worlds, Boitano 94 Olympics, Selezneva & Markarov 88 Olympics, Fadeev 88 Olympics, Harding 92 Olympics, etc.. The one exception is Sale & Pelletier, probably the most held up team of all time who were placed 3rd after the short at the 2001 worlds despite falling on the triple toes, and nearly everyone of note skating brilliantly, but that is a whole other topic.

"Offensive shit edited by admin"

 

[Sparks]

When someone uses the word "irregardless" I disregard everything else said.

 

[Polaris]

Yuna has only $21 million.... I thought she earned more money..Korea is crazy about her..

I'll gladly take "only $21M". You speak as though you were a billionaire.

 

[Fiero425]

Fiero425, it seems to be a pattern when the judges want to hold up the big name who falls in the short they always place them in exactly 4th, regardless the quality of performances from the others. Ito '92 Olympics, Browning '92 Olympics, Kwan '99 Worlds, Stojko 2000 Worlds, Plushenko '02 Olympics, Slutskaya 98 Worlds, etc... When you are a big star who falls in the short that they do not want to hold you up, they place you in either 6th or 7th or 8th, usually 7th- Slutskaya 07 Worlds, Stojko '96 worlds, Boitano '94 Olympics, Selezneva & Markarov '88 Olympics, Fadeev '88 Olympics, Harding '92 Olympics, etc.. The one exception is Sale & Pelletier, probably the most held up team of all time who were placed 3rd after the short at the 2001 Worlds despite falling on the triple toes and nearly everyone of note skating brilliantly, but that's a whole other topic.

Back in '97 during the GP at the NHK, Ilia Kulik was "the man" favored to win OG! He blew his 3 Axel in the SP, actually singling it, but still led the way with the commentators agreeing and making excuses for the judging when 2 other skaters performed clean including our own Dan Hollander! All you can do is shake your head seeing this nonsense go on year after year! At US Nat'ls this same skater performed well until the very last element of a double axel and he was crucified and dropped precipitously in the standings! It's just mind-numbing to see these egregious acts go on!

 

[Fiero425]

When someone uses the word "irregardless" I disregard everything else said.

I fixed it in my reply! I have the same problem, but quietly take care of it!

 

[lala]

I'll gladly take "only $21M". You speak as though you were a billionaire.

You are right, sorry. That is a lot of money ! I'm not billionaire, I would not even call myself a rich person. But I thought Yuna is undoubtedly the richest figure skater. I don't know about Scott Hamilton who is a great business man but I know Plushenko's income. According to the Russian Forbes he earned $20 millions since 2006 to 2017. And he had succesful years before 2006.

 

[slipchuk]

Fiero425, the instance you referred to is because Dan Hollander was the very man who cost the U.S 3 mens spots at the 1998 Olympic Games. He was never going to catch even a slight break at Nationals. As Christine Brennan said in her book he would have had to hang by the rafters at Nationals to earn a place on the team.

 

[Miki89]

it is obvious that this slipchuk is a troll, first Michelle and now Mao is being bashed too. Mao being underscored especially in PCS is a fact, no doubt. Yuna has the medals, what is your problem? it bothers you that people are not talking about her all the time anymore? that´s life .

And the worst type of troll--one that calls others names when they disagree with him, even though he was the first one to ask the question. I am supposedly a clown for stating the obvious.

 

[Fiero425]

Fiero425, the instance you referred to is because Dan Hollander was the very man who cost the U.S 3 mens spots at the 1998 Olympic Games. He was never going to catch even a slight break at Nationals. As Christine Brennan said in her book he would have had to hang by the rafters at Nationals to earn a place on the team.

I well remember it and was terribly resentful that during the Qualifying, he was incompetent and missed just about every jumping pass! I didn't see it, but back then we had to read about it! Someone really got on my case for being so hard on DAN; maybe injured, but you know more about it than me! Thanks for the verification!

 

[Miki89]

2013 Worlds, are you kidding me?! Lol. And yes, she should’ve won 2007 Worlds. It’s more controversial to me that she DIDN’T. And do you mean bombs like Carolina consistently had and still had and was and is still held up. Yuna also benefited from grossly unbalanced valuations. Unless you’re like Scott Hamilton and think a 3Lz+3T isn’t more difficult than a 3A+3T. Though I do a agree most of those other times you mention Mao bombed herself out of those wins.

More ridiculously, he even included 2014 Olympics (lol). I like how he says he prefers Mao to Kim yet repeatedly tries to throw shade on her 2008 Worlds win which wasn't as controversial as he makes it out to be imo. It was a closely contested competition because no one went clean. Mao had a big fall in the free but Kim made a major mistake in the short and her free skate wasn't exactly error free either. If there was anyone wrongly scored, it was Kostner. Nakano should have been on the podium. She actually had the 2nd highest PCS in the FS. The PCS was scored quite closely back then, not like how it would be in later years. In fact, Mao should have been scored much higher for her SP and placed above Kostner. I also remember reading live reports of someone who attended the competition who noted that the crowd was very impressed with her performances, esp the short, and her ability to bounce back from the fall in the LP. I agree that Nakano was probably the one most screwed by the scoring in favor of Kostner but she wouldn't have won under the rules of IJS and besides the 3A, she had lesser content, no 3-3's.

 

[Fiero425]

More ridiculously, he even included 2014 Olympics (lol). I like how he says he prefers Mao to Kim yet repeatedly tries to throw shade on her 2008 Worlds win which wasn't as controversial as he makes it out to be imo. It was a closely contested competition because no one went clean. Mao had a big fall in the free but Kim made a major mistake in the short and her free skate wasn't exactly error free either. If there was anyone wrongly scored, it was Kostner. Nakano should have been on the podium. She actually had the 2nd highest PCS in the FS. The PCS was scored quite closely back then, not like how it would be in later years. In fact, Mao should have been scored much higher for her SP and placed above Kostner. I also remember reading live reports of someone who attended the competition who noted that the crowd was very impressed with her performances, esp the short, and her ability to bounce back from the fall in the LP. I agree that Nakano was probably the one most screwed by the scoring in favor of Kostner but she wouldn't have won under the rules of IJS and besides the 3A, she had lesser content, no 3-3's.

I was one who preferred Mao over Kim, but had no illusions about who was more talented! Asada was the jumper I liked; sorta like Surya or Irina compared to MK! The only chance she had to win would be to skate perfectly and nail her 3 Axel with more than a couple errors from Yuna unfortunately! Mao performed 3 Axels over her SP & LP, but it didn't matter; Kim had the Olympics and those World titles sown up except when she made those errors dropping her to 3rd place! Even then, it was explained away that she "had to be injured!"

 

[Miki89]

Wait...does that mean Fiero is slipchunk?

 

[Fiero425]

Wait...does that mean Fiero is slipchunk?

Honey, I don't have to run around anonymously! I use this same name all over the place! No need to play games in this household! Please spare me trying to disguise my personage!

 

[shady82]

So I entered here expecting the usual Kwan hysteria but find Bobek hating , Asada-bot accusations and the everlasting Yags vs Plushy drama.. Michelle has outdone herself!!

I had no interest in reading this recycled thread in its entirety, but I probably just changed my mind.

 

[overedge]

What is this, 2002?

 

[MIsty Blades/Skate Mom]

Are you like "Fiyero" in Wicked, or "Fiero" as in Pontiac?

Honey, I don't have to run around anonymously! I use this same name all over the place! No need to play games in this household! Please spare me trying to disguise my personage!

 

[Fiero425]

That is awesome! My friend in high school had one of those, but not as nice as yours.

Thanks! I took good care of it and didn't abuse it by driving it that much! It was my primary vehicle, but I always worked close to home and only drove it cross country twice; once to California where I lived for 12 years, then back to Chicago! The rest was local except for a few times I needed to go back and forth to STL! It was still in good shape, but since I'm retired it was just sitting! I practically gave it away to some kid to get rid of it & to allow him to have a cool car @ a young age!

 

[Meoima]

I think the state of US ladies is so sad we have to come back and talk about Kwan all the time...

 

[tylersf]

True, but I loved the Kwan era.

I think the state of US ladies is so sad we have to come back and talk about Kwan all the time...

 

[Fiero425]

I think the state of US ladies is so sad we have to come back and talk about Kwan all the time...

Only in disparaging terms hopefully!

 

[Cachoo]

It isn't easy to win national championships and world championships and to win the number that Kwan did---if any athlete did this in figure skating I think I would include them as "one of the greats." Kwan is not alone in this feat though maybe the most memorable in the modern era. I don't miss her because she won: I miss her because I loved to watch her skate. She is and was special imho.

 

[DreamSkates]

True, but I loved the Kwan era.

Oh, so maybe we have overrated the entire era. Not! The Kwan era was full of rivalries to remember, and no, Kwan was not overrated. Period. The end. I'm done with this silly thread.

 

[MAXSwagg]

2006-2011-ish have a good rivalry with Mao/Yuna.

I would’ve loved more of a Hanyu-Chan rivalry (but it could be that I’m perhaps just more sentimental about those two in particular). Shoma-Nathan is setting up to be a good one too in the next quad but it will have a second facet to it, in the form of those two going against Hanyu for at least the next two years.

Davis/White-Virtue/Moir were good also, and Savchenko/Szolkowy-Volosozhar/Trankov especially was very exciting.