While Michelle Kwan is without doubt a great skater, probably a top 10 or top 15 skater of all time, is she overrated? I do enjoy watching her but looking over her career:
-In a super long career, basically a 14 year long senior career, and 11 season career as a top contender (fall 1994-2005) she managed to defend a World title only once. 2000 and 2001. And even then had to come from behind after the short program both times (one time from 3rd place despite a clean short) and rely on Slutskaya and Butyrskaya to both make mistakes in order to win those events, otherwise would have won neither. Contrast that to say Kristi Yamaguchi who is a legend and all time as well, but isnt really thought of as a super dominant skater, yet in a very short career defended a World title (91 and 92) and would have likely done numerous more times if she had even stayed to 94 or 95, and won the biggest event 3 straight times (91 Worlds- 92 Olympics- 92 Worlds). And that was against far tougher competition than Kwan ever faced (Ito, Harding, Kerrigan all at their peaks at once vs Kwan whose toughest competition was for a bit only Lipinski and then only Slutskaya).
-She skated in a very weak era. In her era a skater like Suguri won 3 world medals which would occur at no other time in history. We saw that when Sugur continued post 2006, wasnt that old yet, and still couldnt even make Japanese teams, making only 1 worlds from 2007-2010. A skater like Hughes won an Olympic Gold, probably still the weakest skater to win the Olympics topping Baiul and Poetzsch. A skater like Butyrskaya won worlds. And her only legitimate competition from 96-2003 was Lipinski in 97-98 and Slutskaya in 2000-2002, and maybe Hughes in 2002. That is it. Chen at just one event- 96 worlds.
-Obviously in her super long career failed to win Olympic Gold. She could not even manage it with a clean 7 triple program in 98, while someone like Shizuka Arakawa could win 8 years later with only 5 triples.
-Had losing records prime to prime against her 2 biggest career rivals. In 97-98 when both were in their primes lost 4 of 5 meetings to Tara Lipinski, and lost the only time both skated cleanly at the 98 Olympics. From 2000-2005, again prime to prime, had a lopsided losing record to Irina Slutskaya, and her only wins over Irina ever during this period were when she skated perfectly and Irina made big mistakes. That means prime to prime she was clearly a weaker skater to both Tara and Irina, despite that for overall career she is often rated above both due to her longevity.
-Was not as dominant ever as someone like Yu Na Kim. In her prime from 96-2004 she generally averaged 2 losses per year. Yu Na Kim generally averaged 1 loss per year, so on average a whole loss per year less, and Kim faced far tougher competition. Medvedeva is even more dominant than both, and while Medvedeva's competition is not as tough as Yu Na Kim's, it is generally superior to what Kwan's was.
-There is not a single aspect of skating she is even close to the best ever in- not jumps, not spins, not spirals (hers are great but in her own time alone Bobek and Cohen both had better ones), not seperate skating or artistic aspects.
-While she is generally a pretty complete package, there are a few aspects of her skating that are weak- spins are fairly weak, jump height is average to slightly weak, speed except days she was really on attack is average to slightly weak for a top skater. This contrasts to skaters like Yu Na Kim, Medvedeva, Yamaguchi, who have no weak aspect to their skating minus just one thing for Yamaguchi- jump height.
-In her prime she faced Yamaguchi way past her prime at the 97 Four Continents and lost the short program when both were clean with the same jumps. This suggests prime to prime she would really have a difficult time facing people like Yamaguchi, Ito, Medvedeva, Kim, Asada, skaters whose caliber she never faced in her prime (as noted her biggest career rival is Slutskaya who is at a clearly lower level than all of those).
-She was generally regarded as a somewhat overscored skater. She had some controversial wins or medals- 95 Lalique over Butyrskaya, 96 worlds over Chen, 99 world silver where most had her 8th or 9th in the short, 2000 Nationals over Cohen, 2000 and 2001 Skate America over Hughes, 2002 Olympic bronze over Cohen (to some). While atleast not to my memory ever having had a controversial loss. This is in contrast to say Yu Na Kim who had many controversial losses- 2008 Worlds, 2011 Worlds, the biggest in skating history probably at the 2014 Olympics. Of course there is also a big difference in being American, as opposed to being Korean or Japanese (Ito, who many regard as held back by judges by not only figures but corrupt judging prior to 89) or Chinese (Chen who many believe was perennialy held down from 93-96 and should have won numerous worlds, and done better than bronze at the 94 Games and placed better at the 92 Games as well). I am sure even the biggest Kwan diehard would concede the chances of her winning even close to 5 worlds, or probably more than about 2 if she were Japanese, Chinese, or Korean are virtually nil.
-She probably benefitted more than any other skater from others mistakes to win her titles/medals. She won the 96 worlds due to Ito's mistakes. She won the 98 Worlds where she didnt skate her best, only due to Slutskaya and Butyrskaya having one fall/major error in both the short and long each. She won the 2000 worlds only due to the mistakes of Slutskaya and Butyrskaya. Had Butyrskaya done her 2 triple salchows in the long she wins only a silver medal. Had Slutskaya done a 7th triple, even without doing a triple-triple, she would win only a bronze medal as Slutskaya winning the long automatically pushes Kwan to 3rd behind Butyrskaya too regardless of Butyrskaya. She won the 2001 worlds due to Slutskaya's mistakes. She won 2003 worlds due to Cohen's mistakes. So basically all 5 of her worlds were won through others mistakes only, and only in 1998 did she make any mistakes of her own. Her U.S titles in 2000, 2003, 2004, and 2005 were won only through Cohen's mistakes too given her own performances.
-In a super long career, basically a 14 year long senior career, and 11 season career as a top contender (fall 1994-2005) she managed to defend a World title only once. 2000 and 2001. And even then had to come from behind after the short program both times (one time from 3rd place despite a clean short) and rely on Slutskaya and Butyrskaya to both make mistakes in order to win those events, otherwise would have won neither. Contrast that to say Kristi Yamaguchi who is a legend and all time as well, but isnt really thought of as a super dominant skater, yet in a very short career defended a World title (91 and 92) and would have likely done numerous more times if she had even stayed to 94 or 95, and won the biggest event 3 straight times (91 Worlds- 92 Olympics- 92 Worlds). And that was against far tougher competition than Kwan ever faced (Ito, Harding, Kerrigan all at their peaks at once vs Kwan whose toughest competition was for a bit only Lipinski and then only Slutskaya).
-She skated in a very weak era. In her era a skater like Suguri won 3 world medals which would occur at no other time in history. We saw that when Sugur continued post 2006, wasnt that old yet, and still couldnt even make Japanese teams, making only 1 worlds from 2007-2010. A skater like Hughes won an Olympic Gold, probably still the weakest skater to win the Olympics topping Baiul and Poetzsch. A skater like Butyrskaya won worlds. And her only legitimate competition from 96-2003 was Lipinski in 97-98 and Slutskaya in 2000-2002, and maybe Hughes in 2002. That is it. Chen at just one event- 96 worlds.
-Obviously in her super long career failed to win Olympic Gold. She could not even manage it with a clean 7 triple program in 98, while someone like Shizuka Arakawa could win 8 years later with only 5 triples.
-Had losing records prime to prime against her 2 biggest career rivals. In 97-98 when both were in their primes lost 4 of 5 meetings to Tara Lipinski, and lost the only time both skated cleanly at the 98 Olympics. From 2000-2005, again prime to prime, had a lopsided losing record to Irina Slutskaya, and her only wins over Irina ever during this period were when she skated perfectly and Irina made big mistakes. That means prime to prime she was clearly a weaker skater to both Tara and Irina, despite that for overall career she is often rated above both due to her longevity.
-Was not as dominant ever as someone like Yu Na Kim. In her prime from 96-2004 she generally averaged 2 losses per year. Yu Na Kim generally averaged 1 loss per year, so on average a whole loss per year less, and Kim faced far tougher competition. Medvedeva is even more dominant than both, and while Medvedeva's competition is not as tough as Yu Na Kim's, it is generally superior to what Kwan's was.
-There is not a single aspect of skating she is even close to the best ever in- not jumps, not spins, not spirals (hers are great but in her own time alone Bobek and Cohen both had better ones), not seperate skating or artistic aspects.
-While she is generally a pretty complete package, there are a few aspects of her skating that are weak- spins are fairly weak, jump height is average to slightly weak, speed except days she was really on attack is average to slightly weak for a top skater. This contrasts to skaters like Yu Na Kim, Medvedeva, Yamaguchi, who have no weak aspect to their skating minus just one thing for Yamaguchi- jump height.
-In her prime she faced Yamaguchi way past her prime at the 97 Four Continents and lost the short program when both were clean with the same jumps. This suggests prime to prime she would really have a difficult time facing people like Yamaguchi, Ito, Medvedeva, Kim, Asada, skaters whose caliber she never faced in her prime (as noted her biggest career rival is Slutskaya who is at a clearly lower level than all of those).
-She was generally regarded as a somewhat overscored skater. She had some controversial wins or medals- 95 Lalique over Butyrskaya, 96 worlds over Chen, 99 world silver where most had her 8th or 9th in the short, 2000 Nationals over Cohen, 2000 and 2001 Skate America over Hughes, 2002 Olympic bronze over Cohen (to some). While atleast not to my memory ever having had a controversial loss. This is in contrast to say Yu Na Kim who had many controversial losses- 2008 Worlds, 2011 Worlds, the biggest in skating history probably at the 2014 Olympics. Of course there is also a big difference in being American, as opposed to being Korean or Japanese (Ito, who many regard as held back by judges by not only figures but corrupt judging prior to 89) or Chinese (Chen who many believe was perennialy held down from 93-96 and should have won numerous worlds, and done better than bronze at the 94 Games and placed better at the 92 Games as well). I am sure even the biggest Kwan diehard would concede the chances of her winning even close to 5 worlds, or probably more than about 2 if she were Japanese, Chinese, or Korean are virtually nil.
-She probably benefitted more than any other skater from others mistakes to win her titles/medals. She won the 96 worlds due to Ito's mistakes. She won the 98 Worlds where she didnt skate her best, only due to Slutskaya and Butyrskaya having one fall/major error in both the short and long each. She won the 2000 worlds only due to the mistakes of Slutskaya and Butyrskaya. Had Butyrskaya done her 2 triple salchows in the long she wins only a silver medal. Had Slutskaya done a 7th triple, even without doing a triple-triple, she would win only a bronze medal as Slutskaya winning the long automatically pushes Kwan to 3rd behind Butyrskaya too regardless of Butyrskaya. She won the 2001 worlds due to Slutskaya's mistakes. She won 2003 worlds due to Cohen's mistakes. So basically all 5 of her worlds were won through others mistakes only, and only in 1998 did she make any mistakes of her own. Her U.S titles in 2000, 2003, 2004, and 2005 were won only through Cohen's mistakes too given her own performances.
... Even if Evan was boring as hell.
Must we discuss Michelle Kwan all the time in every thread, especially when the Olympics rolls around? 
Oh, I forgot: Kween Rules! And some peeps never gonna forget their angst from when MK just kept winning at a time when their faves couldn't. 
