Aussie Willy
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If Chaz Michaels Michaels slept with her, then she is definitely not overrated. He wouldn't lower himself to seduce and conquer anything other than a legend.
Is Michelle Kwan overrated
- Thread starter slipchuk
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Nicole Bobek and Naomi Nari Nam, ROTFL!! Yeah I am sure any good competitor would be terrified of facing a mess who set a U.S record for worst Olympic finish in Nagano and who usually struggled to land a double axel or triple toe cleanly, or a girl who peaked at 13 and never had anything harder than a triple salchow she could do effeciently. You might as well talk about Jennifer Robinson and her incredible competition in dominating Canadian Nationals facing a young Joannie Rochette and Annie Bellemare who are both atleast better skaters than Nam. You just help prove my point so thanks.
Fiero425
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Nicole being sent was a joke from what I remembered! She watered down her program just to stay on her feet at Nationals knowing the committee would send her to Nagano because of her looks and accompanying endorsements alone! It was one of the most pathetic and irresponsible decisions I can remember back then! Nam was just injury prone due to pushing herself to do adult programs with that little junior body of hers! She was a gorgeous skater, but like Caroline Zhang, her junior success never translated to adult skating! I blame the coaches and parents!
Nicole Bobek was always a joke. I so wish Tonia K. had gotten the spot instead. She was a journeywomen but was always prepared and professional, which is the complete opposite of Nicole. Nicole worked hard for Nationals since she knew if she skated half decent there the corrupt USFSA would ensure her being on the team even if Tonia or Angela had the skate of their lives with far more technical content, and then we had to all endure weeks of absurd hype of a U.S sweep which was never going to happen as Nicole predictably went to the Games and bombed. Atleast with Tonia there would be no silly hype of a U.S sweep to listen to, but I am sure she would be honored to respresent the U.S at the Games after years of trying and do herself proud. Who knows with the super weak field outside of the top 2, and all the bronze contenders except Chen bombing badly, anything might have happened anyway. Even Bobek's world medal (which the judges were salivating to award her a gold if she simply stayed on her feet or even only 1 fell once, but like everything else she found a way to blow) was a joke, falling twice and giving up the last 40 seconds of the program, but was still given bronze over Kwan who was clean, and Markova who wasnt but sure skated better and had a far more interesting and better choroegraphed program to boot.
As for Nam, she is like a Caroline Zhang except just lasting 1 or 2 year rather than 12.
As for Nam, she is like a Caroline Zhang except just lasting 1 or 2 year rather than 12.
lala
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Ya don't say. Funny that. How would you know this in any case? After all, Yagudin never had to compete against Sasha Cohen, Naomi Nari Nam, Sarah Hughes, Nicole Bobek, Tara Lipinski, et al. Yags is all kinds of lucky he got injured and had to retire well before his time.
I'm sure Plush was happy about Yags retiring too. Plush probably would have also preferred for Yags to skip Russian Natls on many occasions and show up in the U.S. instead, to tackle U.S. ladies divison.
Plush was almost 3 years younger. Everybody remember of their great rivalry, many people mention even today. But that is very surprising they last competition was at SLC! Plushenko was only 19. Plushy a honest guy he said in his biography he was happy when Yags left Mishin. They didn't train at same time with Mishin already but he was happy because knew Mishin takes all his attention to him. Plushenko beat Yagudin from his age of 15 on Rus Nats. He was not afraid of Yagudin, don't forget Yags needed sportpsychologist in 2001.
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aftershocks
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I guess then we must have TAT, Yags and his 'sportpsychologist' to thank for these iconic performances:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6A_dtezybzM Winter
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PX7oMMWz-g4 Man in the Iron Mask
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aftershocks
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Some peeps just don't get sarcasm, much less reasoned logic. Or is that trolls are purposely not getting their own high-falutin' irrelevance.
Help me out here @PeterG. Albeit who would wish to touch this thread with a ten-foot pole who hasn't already mightily braved its shoals and insane booby-traps.
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lala
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Are you a fabulist? These are just your dreams.
-Plushenko has much more titles as Yagudin's in all champioships except WCH titles ( Yags 4, Plush 3)
-Yagudin didn't dominate in anything. Plushenko was the innovator, Yags just followed him if he wanted to be competitive.
-According to some informations Plushenko was asked by Putin personally to compete in Vancouver. The Russians had no strong competitor in men.
-Without gold at Vancouver one gold and two silvers medals are much more as Yagudin's one gold..don't you think? So he couldn't be bitter for this reason.
- When they went to head to head at the Games Yagudin had the second OG( he was 5th at Nagano), Plushenko had the first and won silver.
- If anybody is bitter because the other is more famous, popular, richer, etc. that is Yagudin. He criticised Plushenko continously in the Russian media . Plushenko didn't reacted those articles, he invited him to his 30th birthday show. He was angry on Yagudin just because of Mishin. He believes Yagudin didn't thanked to Mishin his work.
But we all know since Sochi everything has changed in their relationship.
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lala
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I guess then we must have TAT, Yags and his 'sportpsychologist' to thank for these iconic performances:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6A_dtezybzM Winter
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PX7oMMWz-g4 Man in the Iron Mask
No, Yags had real sportpsychologist after 2000/2001 season when Plushy beat him everywhere..
What is iconic that is very subjective, you know. Yes, those are iconic, but Plushenko also had iconic performances. But maybe those are not your cup of tea.
Eeyora1
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I remember so many news outlets predicting Nagano would be 1-2-3 sweep which I never believed would happen. However I never expected her to finish 17th. I expected 8th or 9th. Bobek like so many others had the talent but not the best training regime as I can recall. She’d then over train and then injure herself.
I always thought she should have stayed with Callaghan...
MAXSwagg
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Well if we’re going by that, Hanyu has “captured imaginations” much more than Papdakis/Cizeron. I’m just curious how you mention them but failed to mention other skaters who are much more prolific. My point is I’ve never seen a PapCiz article or mention here in US. And I also find it very weird that you mention them in the same light as Witt and Torvill Dean; I don’t see any skater today that has the profile they did in “capturing imaginations.”
aftershocks
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You are in your own world @lala. La La Plushy-land apparently.
May I ask though for you to stop miscontruing and making assumptions about my 'cup of tea.' I wouldn't presume to guess what you like in your 'cup of tea.' But yeah, keep on drinkin' 
VGThuy
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Honestly though, considering how Nagano ended up, Nicole's Nationals skate would have been anywhere from 3rd to like 7th. It would have just been a simple judges' call.
millyskate
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I haven't seen any Hanyu videos with 31M views, but maybe there are. The whole point was that it's not about being prolific, but about having that x factor that makes people who have no interest in skating, from countries that have no figure skating presence, write philosophical essays under a facebook video. Hanyu has certainly got that capability also, although it's a bit different. Both Yuna and Hanyu contributed to an unprecedented cult following in their home countries and brought a whole new audience to the sport. With Lipnitskaya's Schindler's List or P&C you had people who'd never watched figure skating before and never will again being moved by their performance on a deep level. It's just a different kind of impact.
To get back to the topic, Kwan was a striking figure on the ice with rare, Audrey Hepburn/Jackie Kennedy levels of elegance and poise. Her sporting achievements were remarkable and her personality and style radiated. All stars are "overrated" in a way, because around them there are others who were almost as good and anonymous. We still love them
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gotoschool
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[QUOTE="slipchuk, post: She was generally regarded as a somewhat overscored skater. She had some controversial wins or medals- 95 Lalique over Butyrskaya, 96 worlds over Chen, 99 world silver where most had her 8th or 9th in the short, 2000 Nationals over Cohen, 2000 and 2001 Skate America over Hughes, 2002 Olympic bronze over Cohen (to some). While atleast not to my memory ever having had a controversial loss. This is in contrast to say Yu Na Kim who had many controversial losses- 2008 Worlds, 2011 Worlds, the biggest in skating history probably at the 2014 Olympics..[/QUOTE]
While I think Michelle skated well in 1996 Worlds. I believe Lu Chen should have won Worlds in 1996 because of superior artistic expression for a truly classic performance in the LP and yet she lost this artistic mark because in my view the competition was held in the US, China has weaker backing in general made more of a disadvantage by the competition being in the US, and I believe Michelle Kwan received extra marks for consistency going into the competition that was separate from actual performance. Mao should have won by more points in 2008 Worlds. Dick Button can be clearly heard saying that Yuna Kim's triple salchow in LP was a ur (cheat was the word he used), yet she received no ur call. Yet , in the replay, it only had 2 air rotations, while Mao received a ur call on her backend 3F / 3L in the LP that Dick Button did not even mention in his commentary. And 64 points for Mao's great SP was underscored.
As for as controversial win at Sochi, a look at rink coverage and jump placement, which is a great indicator of skating skills and speed, showed that in the LP Mao had by far the most, Carolina was second, and Adelina and Yuna Kim were close but well behind Mao and Carolina in coverage and expansive jump placement. While Adelina received generous tech calls, so did Yuna Kim who in addition had 4 points lower tech base than Adelina, Carolina also got fairly advantageous calls. So, I don't see the huge controversy in Yuna Kim's scoring. Mao was the one held down in tech and PCS so as not to threaten potential medalists in the final group, which was a similar technique used against Mao at 2014 Worlds to normalize the deflated Sochi LP scores.
While I think Michelle skated well in 1996 Worlds. I believe Lu Chen should have won Worlds in 1996 because of superior artistic expression for a truly classic performance in the LP and yet she lost this artistic mark because in my view the competition was held in the US, China has weaker backing in general made more of a disadvantage by the competition being in the US, and I believe Michelle Kwan received extra marks for consistency going into the competition that was separate from actual performance. Mao should have won by more points in 2008 Worlds. Dick Button can be clearly heard saying that Yuna Kim's triple salchow in LP was a ur (cheat was the word he used), yet she received no ur call. Yet , in the replay, it only had 2 air rotations, while Mao received a ur call on her backend 3F / 3L in the LP that Dick Button did not even mention in his commentary. And 64 points for Mao's great SP was underscored.
As for as controversial win at Sochi, a look at rink coverage and jump placement, which is a great indicator of skating skills and speed, showed that in the LP Mao had by far the most, Carolina was second, and Adelina and Yuna Kim were close but well behind Mao and Carolina in coverage and expansive jump placement. While Adelina received generous tech calls, so did Yuna Kim who in addition had 4 points lower tech base than Adelina, Carolina also got fairly advantageous calls. So, I don't see the huge controversy in Yuna Kim's scoring. Mao was the one held down in tech and PCS so as not to threaten potential medalists in the final group, which was a similar technique used against Mao at 2014 Worlds to normalize the deflated Sochi LP scores.
Mao Asada with better skating skills and speed than Carolina Kostner or even Yu Na Kim, ROTFL! Psycho Mao fanatic, your Mao avatar definitely fits. And while Mao should have probably won the LP phase in Sochi, she had no shot of a medal after bombing her short program, and only a psycho Mao fanatic like yourself would imply otherwise. She may have been close to Sotnikova for the bronze, but even with fair scoring Asada's 1st place LP would have only beaten Sotnikova's distant 4th placing one by 10-12 points, less than the short program gap even deflating Sotnikova's inflated SP score too.
Aussie Willy
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This thread is all kinds of over the place. 
PeterG
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Who is this Michelle Kwan? I don't really follow junior skaters.
This thread is all kinds of over the place.
As it should be. When you ask if xxx is overrated, the answer depends on who you ask.
VIETgrlTerifa, I 100% agree with you with Bobeks performances from Nationals 98 the judges could plausibly place her anywhere from 3rd to 7th in Nagano and not been wrong. Which means there is almost no chance they would choose to place her 3rd. Judges do not like podium sweeps by one country, I mentioned that in my ladies bronze medal thread. They only allow it when the 3rd skater from a country clearly outskates the others. They refused to allow Soviet sweeps in pairs and dance nearly every year in Worlds and especialy Olympics, even when the 3rd Russian was better than the others. So Bobeks National performances which could only somewhat debatably have been placed 3rd would never be enough. Even moreso when you consider Chen was the biggest sentimental favorite, Slutskaya was the favorite of a powerful federation, and Butyrskaya was from the same powerful federation and while not getting much backing from them vs Irina also is a sentimental favorite having not medaled at worlds yet. Bobek by contrast is an unpopular figure in the sport known for poor work ethic and a bad attitude, and with neither high status in the sport given her lack of recent results or a past pedigree like Chen or Slutskaya.
Nicole could have been great, but mental outlook, bad habits and nerves got in the way. USFSA really wanted Bobek to be great. She had the look the US skating world wants as a model for a champion. They tried to hold her up for as long as they could.
In her first seniors, Naomi Nari Nam finished 2nd to Kwan. I remember ABC Sports touting her as the future of US skating. They did side-by-side comparisons of her spin positions which were judged as superior to Kwan's. And they were. Unfortunately, she was too young to go to Worlds, then the injuries kept coming. She tried pairs, but I think more injuries prevented that too.
Both had a LOT of potential. But as I said earlier, results, not potential gets you in the record books and in the memories of skating fans.
In her first seniors, Naomi Nari Nam finished 2nd to Kwan. I remember ABC Sports touting her as the future of US skating. They did side-by-side comparisons of her spin positions which were judged as superior to Kwan's. And they were. Unfortunately, she was too young to go to Worlds, then the injuries kept coming. She tried pairs, but I think more injuries prevented that too.
Both had a LOT of potential. But as I said earlier, results, not potential gets you in the record books and in the memories of skating fans.
gotoschool
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Erroneous stereotypes applied to Mao to try to justify her underscoring are contradicted by physical evidence, as the heat map below clearly shows with Mao clearly having superior rink coverage and more expansive jump placement. The fact is that i also referred to 6 skaters in my last post over 3 competitions one of which didn't even include Mao, yet the response only mentions Mao, Adelina, and Sochi, with a misrepresentation of my statement coupled with a need to insult Mao fans who present physical evidence with no insults.
Mao's rink coverage
https://ibb.co/dFe046
https://ibb.co/jnKKWm
https://ibb.co/jnKKWm
Carolina Kostner:
https://ibb.co/n7x6Bm
Yuna Kim
https://ibb.co/dBOrcR
Adelina Sotnikova:
https://ibb.co/joC6Bm
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Meoima
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It's like they watch some good performance, like it a bit then move on. Same as people watch other viral videos though. So what they see a beautiful performance, it is good and that's it they move on with their other habits.
I see some great dance video on some talent show, click the like and share it on my facebook then move on with it.
My experience with showing FS videos of skaters to non-fans is that: not many people care about ice dance as a sport.
Showing ice dance videos to non-fans they just say oh it's beautiful but they're not wow and too much invested in getting to know the sport. With skaters at least they see them fall or not in the jumps so it's still easier to get. However, CoP judging is making it harder.
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lala
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You are in your own world @lala. La La Plushy-land apparently.
If I'm not mistaken Plushy is not your cup of tea thus I was brave to write that term. But if you became his fan, I apologize you
Otherwise Plushy-land's name is Plushendia. It was established by Japanese fans in 2014 :
the royal family https://www.instagram.com/p/BAcTR9emypY/
the flag https://www.instagram.com/p/4O-nKUGyoL/?
some souvenirs
https://www.instagram.com/p/BDN34MOGyuA/?
https://www.instagram.com/p/BDN3xQWGytx/?
https://www.instagram.com/p/BDN3p_Hmytd/?
and many more
https://twitter.com/plushendia_bot
This is a very happy country. We're never disappointed with our king. So much fan and interesting life.
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lala
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It's interesting
Meoima
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Everybody who has ever been in business will tell you that, yes, acquiring a new customer and sparking their interest for the first time is difficult, but it is the retention of their interest after that which is way more challenging, and important.I haven't seen any Hanyu videos with 31M views, but maybe there are. The whole point was that it's not about being prolific, but about having that x factor that makes people who have no interest in skating, from countries that have no figure skating presence, write philosophical essays under a facebook video. Hanyu has certainly got that capability also, although it's a bit different. Both Yuna and Hanyu contributed to an unprecedented cult following in their home countries and brought a whole new audience to the sport. With Lipnitskaya's Schindler's List or P&C you had people who'd never watched figure skating before and never will again being moved by their performance on a deep level. It's just a different kind of impact.
To get back to the topic, Kwan was a striking figure on the ice with rare, Audrey Hepburn/Jackie Kennedy levels of elegance and poise. Her sporting achievements were remarkable and her personality and style radiated. All stars are "overrated" in a way, because around them there are others who were almost as good and anonymous. We still love them
I am not sure how much P/C are famous inside their own country and Europe but I don’t think skating and ice dance in general generate huge followers to the point the mass audience become heavily invested in skating and learn how to understand skating deeply. If I remember correctly my friends in France say they’re not interested in skating much so...
With skating, to get attention for several minutes and get buzz for several days thanks to viral video is very much possible just like other types of sports or perfoming style. I might spend a week to read about some kind of entertainment shows and forget about it next month.
The point is to generate huge interest and get followers who study skating and pay huge money to travel for skating competitions seriously. I don’t think we have that.
This coming from the person who calls the other a psycho imo. Gotoschool may be passionate but he/she was never rude.
If you can't accept different opinions, then don't open a thread like this one. Based on your analysis, all I can see is a passionate Kim fan who wants to undermine Kwan's accomplishments as she is usually brought up as being one of the greatest female skaters of all time. I certainly do not remember Everyone agreeing that Kim should have gotten the gold. There were quite a few who preferred Kostner. The opinions varied even more for 2011 and 2008 Worlds, where Kim made major mistakes in either one or both sections. If anything, there was at least equal controversy regarding who should have won the 1998 Olympic title in the ladies field.
SamuraiK
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So I entered here expecting the usual Kwan hysteria but find Bobek hating , Asada-bot accusations and the everlasting Yags vs Plushy drama.. Michelle has outdone herself!!
.. Michelle has outdone herself!!
VGThuy
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So I entered here expecting the usual Kwan hysteria but find Bobek hating , Asada-bot accusations and the everlasting Yags vs Plushy drama
Haha yeah. Went from is Kwan overrated to is everyone in the history of this sport overrated? Was Madge Syers overrated?
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