Is Michelle Kwan overrated

Good lord, NO. IMHO, Kwan changed the landscape of skating with her performance quality. Breathtaking, joyous, intense, original. I feel like those who designed IJS had exactly her qualities in mind. Just my piddly two cents :)
 
One reason for the famed Kwan longevity is her failure to win the Olympics. If she had won the 98 Olympics she might well have gone pro. Had she won either the 98 or 2002 Olympics it is 100% certain she goes pro after the 2002 Games.

Had Yu Na Kim not won either the 2010 or 2014 Olympics for instance, instead of deserving to win both times, she probably would still be competing, vying for the elusive Olympic Gold in her home country, and on her 6th or 7th World title today.

She basically inadvertently benefitted from her failure to do what other legends like Yu Na Kim or Kristi Yamaguchi did quickly. Had Kristi been 2nd to Ito in 92, she obviously competes through 94, wins the 93 worlds, 94 Olympics, 94 worlds, and possibly a bit beyond 94 (although probably no motivation to go right to 98 now) and ends up a far more decorated skater than what she is today when she won everything quickly and went pro. The same could be applied to Tara Lipinski and Oksana Baiul to a lesser extent, I say lesser extent as their chances of long term dominance IMO are far less than Kim or Yamaguchi. The one exception is Katarina Witt who only stayed in since her country made her, and she of course achieved far more than Kwan and had a 5 year clip of far greater dominance than Kwan (1 loss in 5 years, wow) even in a still much shorter career where she retired at only 21.
 
slipchuk said:
One reason for the famed Kwan longevity is her failure to win the Olympics. If she had won the 98 Olympics she might well have gone pro. Had she won either the 98 or 2002 Olympics it is 100% certain she goes pro after the 2002 Games.

Had Yu Na Kim not won either the 2010 or 2014 Olympics for instance, instead of deserving to win both times, she probably would still be competing, vying for the elusive Olympic Gold in her home country, and on her 6th or 7th World title today.

She basically inadvertently benefitted from her failure to do what other legends like Yu Na Kim or Kristi Yamaguchi did quickly. Had Kristi been 2nd to Ito in 92, she obviously competes through 94, wins the 93 worlds, 94 Olympics, 94 worlds, and possibly a bit beyond 94 (although probably no motivation to go right to 98 now) and ends up a far more decorated skater than what she is today when she won everything quickly and went pro. The same could be applied to Tara Lipinski and Oksana Baiul to a lesser extent, I say lesser extent as their chances of long term dominance IMO are far less than Kim or Yamaguchi. The one exception is Katarina Witt who only stayed in since her country made her, and she of course achieved far more than Kwan and had a 5 year clip of far greater dominance than Kwan (1 loss in 5 years, wow) even in a still much shorter career where she retired at only 21.
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That explains Plushenko's longevity, too. Oh wait ....
 
caseyedwards said:
Michelle Kwan ended her career being underscored in IJS!! This was judges telling her that her time was up! They didn’t say she was overrated but they wanted to move on!
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I don't agree with the message from the judges part. However, Kwan was not a COP skater. The IJS scoring system did not favor her strengths. She was never going to be the fastest, jump the highest or explore new elements. She was remarkably consistent, but equally played it safe. It was a time when if you fell, you were toast. IJS gave skaters like Alyssa C. a boost. Her non jump elements (like spins) were valued more than under 6.0. And, IJS ushered in an era where if you rotated on a 3/3 but fell, you still scored lots of points.

And, I think Michelle wanted a life. I remember she wanted to live at the dorms and "experience" college. Her dad and/or Frank told her that her skating would suffer, and it did. Simply not enough hours in the day.
 
giselle23, it does in fact partly explain Plushenko and his longevity in comparision to someone like Yagudin or Kulik. If Kulik doesnt win in 98 he 100% goes for 2002 at minimum. Yagudin had his career end with hip injury, but regardless winning in SLC he was never going to compete untiil 2010 and beyond like Plushenko, and it is questionable if he even goes to 2006. If Plushenko wins in SLC he never competes anywhere near as long. And even winning in Turin, the main reason he came back for Vancouver is many still regarded Yagudin as better than him and the only reason to have something even on paper over Yagudin was to win a 2nd OGM in Vancouver. That is why he was so bitter and sour when he lost there, it had nothing to do with Lysacek winning as nobody will ever consider Lysacek an all time great, it was that even competing way longer than Yagudin he failed to get anything up on him, not even a 2nd OGM, less world titles, and lost the one time they went head to head at the Games.
 
slipchuk said:
giselle23, it does in fact partly explain Plushenko and his longevity in comparision to someone like Yagudin or Kulik. If Kulik doesnt win in 98 he 100% goes for 2002 at minimum. Yagudin had his career end with hip injury, but regardless winning in SLC he was never going to compete untiil 2010 and beyond like Plushenko, and it is questionable if he even goes to 2006. If Plushenko wins in SLC he never competes anywhere near as long. And even winning in Turin, the main reason he came back for Vancouver is many still regarded Yagudin as better than him and the only reason to have something even on paper over Yagudin was to win a 2nd OGM in Vancouver. That is why he was so bitter and sour when he lost there, it had nothing to do with Lysacek winning as nobody will ever consider Lysacek an all time great, it was that even competing way longer than Yagudin he failed to get anything up on him, not even a 2nd OGM, less world titles, and lost the one time they went head to head at the Games.
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I have no doubt that if Michelle had won the OGM IN 1998, she would have continued on. As a young skater, she said she wanted to go the three Olympic Games. I expect her record at Nationals to stand for a long time and when someone else wins 5 World Gold medals and is on the World podium for for 9 years straight (5 gold, 3 silver, 1 bronze), we can talk about who is overrated. Signing off of this hater thread now.
 
AxelAnnie said:
. . . Kwan was not a COP skater. The IJS scoring system did not favor her strengths.
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Particularly because Michelle was never that flexible and had the late career hip injury and the version of the COP used in 2004-2006 rewarded the Beillmann position multiple times in spins and spiral sequences . . . which is funny because this is now defunct.
 
slipchuk said:
giselle23, it does in fact partly explain Plushenko and his longevity in comparision to someone like Yagudin or Kulik. If Kulik doesnt win in 98 he 100% goes for 2002 at minimum. Yagudin had his career end with hip injury, but regardless winning in SLC he was never going to compete untiil 2010 and beyond like Plushenko, and it is questionable if he even goes to 2006. If Plushenko wins in SLC he never competes anywhere near as long. And even winning in Turin, the main reason he came back for Vancouver is many still regarded Yagudin as better than him and the only reason to have something even on paper over Yagudin was to win a 2nd OGM in Vancouver. That is why he was so bitter and sour when he lost there, it had nothing to do with Lysacek winning as nobody will ever consider Lysacek an all time great, it was that even competing way longer than Yagudin he failed to get anything up on him, not even a 2nd OGM, less world titles, and lost the one time they went head to head at the Games.
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Well now plushenko has two gold medals!! We’ll see if he gets to keep it!
 
gisele, I would ather have the careers of all of Yamaguchi, Kim, and what Medvedeva is likely to achieve than Kwan's.

Kim- Much more successful than Kwan in the biggest (Olympics) and 3rd biggest (Grand Prix final) than Kwan, as well as at Four Continents (where Kwan never competed and Kim has won so by default Kim wins), the regular grand prix, Junior Worlds, basically almost everywhere. An Olympic Gold and silver which everyone regards as should have been 2 golds as her 2014 Olympic loss is regarded by nearly all fans and experts as the biggest farce in history and I am not even a fan of hers. And of course Kwan won the prestigious Grand Prix final a mere one time where Kim like everywhere else was dominant and won many times. The only place Kwan has done better is worlds and even here they won the same number of programs (8) with Kim participating in about half the number of Worlds.

Yamaguchi- Olympic Gold, back to back world titles around her Olympic Gold, and 4 World Pro titles vs Kwan who did not even have a pro career. Along with the prestige of multiple National titles in pairs, a very rare feat.

Medvedeva- Seems well on pace to eclipse all of these careers, even if I consider Yu Na Kim and perhaps Kristi Yamaguchi (but not Michelle Kwan) as probably being better overall skaters.

Kwan might have continued if she won in 98 but it is far from a sure thing. Everyone thought Baiul, Lipinski, and Hughes would continue as well. And the chances of her going beyond 2002 and winning the 9 U.S titles you speak of are now nil. And many skaters have 9 National titles, Patrick Chan won his 10th National title this weekend, Bourne & Kraatz also have 10 National titles, Evgeny Plushenko has 10 National titles and he faced Yagudin who is way better than anyone Kwan faced in the U.S, Yu Na Kim has 6 but would have 12 if she didnt skip between 2007-2012, Maribel Vinson Owen also has 9 National U.S singles titles and numerous pairs titles and is not even considered a great of the sport, and even Ivan Dinev has a whopping 12 National titles. A skater like that has atleast 5 National titles
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsGQPOaq8bE National titles really mean nothing, except in your own country.
 
slipchuk said:
Kwan might have continued if she won in 98 but it is far from a sure thing. Everyone thought Baiul, Lipinski, and Hughes would continue as well. And the chances of her going beyond 2002 and winning the 9 U.S titles you speak of are now nil. And many skaters have 9 National titles, Patrick Chan won his 10th National title this weekend, Bourne & Kraatz also have 10 National titles, Evgeny Plushenko has 10 National titles and he faced Yagudin who is way better than anyone Kwan faced in the U.S, Yu Na Kim has 6 but would have 12 if she didnt skip between 2007-2012, Maribel Vinson Owen also has 9 National U.S singles titles and numerous pairs titles and is not even considered a great of the sport, and even Ivan Dinev has a whopping 12 National titles. A skater like that has atleast 5 National titles
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsGQPOaq8bE National titles really mean nothing, except in your own country.
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Michelle also has a bachelors degree, masters degree, worked for the US State Department under two administrations, tried and failed in major political campaigns, formally promotes the Olympic Movement, Special Olympics, and the World Games. Michelle also certainly is not hurting for money, I mean it is others that are trying to shake her down for cash and not the other way around. Michelle has had a much more diverse career than the others. Who knows? Maybe some losing taught her a different kind of resilience than the others. Michelle has had a very interesting life, and it is not a life that only revolves around skating. I am certain all the others have "met powerful people", but only Michelle has "worked with them".
 
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slipchuk said:
Maribel Vinson Owen also has 9 National U.S singles titles and numerous pairs titles and is not even considered a great of the sport . . .
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You're crazy!

Maribel Vinson Owen was:

- inducted into the World Figure Skating Hall of Fame
- inducted into the US Figure Skating Hall of Fame
- an Olympic medalist
- a World medalist
- a European Championship Medalist
- the coach of an Olympic, World, and National Champion
- the author of three books on figure skating
- provided technical advice to Mabel Fairbanks, a Women's Sports Hall of Fame Inductee who had a hard time getting into a rink because she was black, let alone any competitions, yet she coached Tiffany Chin, Scott Hamilton, Kristi Yamaguchi / Rudy Galindo, Tai Babilonia / Randy Gardner, Debi Thomas . . .
- the first woman sportswriter for the New York Times
- one of the coaches that died on the Sabena Flight 548

I can not believe you would stoop that far to try to prove Michelle Kwan is overrated.
 
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bardtoob said:
You're crazy!

Maribel Vinson Owen was:

- inducted into the World Figure Skating Hall of Fame
- inducted into the US Figure Skating Hall of Fame
- an Olympic medalist
- a World medalist
- a European Championship Medalist
- the coach of an Olympic, World, and National Champion
- the author of three books on figure skating
- the first woman sportswriter for the New York Times
- one of the coaches that died on the Sabena Flight 548

I can not believe you would stoop that far to try to prove Michelle Kwan is overrated.
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Perhaps because she’s not really much of a “household name” outside of skating circles? No doubting she had a stellar reputation and record.
 
Inessence said:
Perhaps because she’s not really much of a “household name” outside of skating circles? No doubting she had a stellar reputation and record.
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Who is a household name from before 1961? Nobody. The first US Nationals was broadcast in 1961.
 
Michelle Kwan is one of the few skaters who appealed to people beyond the sport. I remember visiting my friend a few years after the end of Michelle's career, with whom I used to watch skating as a teenager. For some reason, Michelle Kwan came up on TV and her brother said "oh, that's Michelle Kwan, I remember her"! (bear in mind this was in France)

I think there have been only a handful: Katarina Witt, Torvill and Dean, and now Papadakis and Cizeron seem to capture that public imagination although it's too early to say if that will stick. Lipnitskaya had that potential, but since she only had one great performance, people forgot. Her Schindler's list program did cause the whole world to stop and watch though.
 
millyskate said:
Michelle Kwan is one of the few skaters who appealed to people beyond the sport. I remember visiting my friend a few years after the end of Michelle's career, with whom I used to watch skating as a teenager. For some reason, Michelle Kwan came up on TV and her brother said "oh, that's Michelle Kwan, I remember her"! (bear in mind this was in France)

I think there have been only a handful: Katarina Witt, Torvill and Dean, and now Papadakis and Cizeron seem to capture that public imagination although it's too early to say if that will stick. Lipnitskaya had that potential, but since she only had one great performance, people forgot. Her Schindler's list program did cause the whole world to stop and watch though.
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Er, what? Papadakis/Cizeron? I don’t think so, and I’m a big fan.
 
MAXSwagg said:
Er, what? Papadakis/Cizeron? I don’t think so, and I’m a big fan.
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Err, have you seen how many million views their FD has on youtube/ facebook? And the incredibly diverse population that is moved by it? From the Middle East to random high school boys...
 
I guess what I’m trying to say is that it’s the intangibles, rather than the resume, that makes the reputation of a skater. And Michelle Kwan did capture people’s hearts, and the mental image of her spiral is iconic for skating fans.
 
slipchuk said:
Yagudin who is way better than anyone Kwan faced in the U.S.
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:huh: :duh: :p :wall: :rofl:
Ya don't say. Funny that. How would you know this in any case? After all, Yagudin never had to compete against Sasha Cohen, Naomi Nari Nam, Sarah Hughes, Nicole Bobek, Tara Lipinski, et al. Yags is all kinds of lucky he got injured and had to retire well before his time. :p

I'm sure Plush was happy about Yags retiring too. Plush probably would have also preferred for Yags to skip Russian Natls on many occasions and show up in the U.S. instead, to tackle U.S. ladies divison. :lol: :eek: :watch:
 
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