Papadakis CIzeron #4 - Happiness Does Not Wait

[Laney]

A very important question for the end of my post - what do you think of Gabi's new dress? Or at least I think it's new: I'd say it's a bit darker and a mix of navy blue and purple?

Oh, I thought something is wrong with my eyes I noticed too, that the dress is a bit darker. I think I liked the first one a tiny bit better, but hey, it´s still one of my favourite dresses this season I love it that it´s so simple and doesn´t take away any of the skating.

 

[Anyasnake]

So after this weekend, I kept on rewatching the dance event with several commentators to see what they had to say about each team, that was very interesting.
Here is the opening of CBC broadcast with an interview : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuynfxFxq5s
Gsquared FD : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUpXqSYwgcU
Broadcast ending with another small interview : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2GXO36DOiY

All of the commentary is very interesting ! Of course it's still biased, that's understandable because it's a Canadian broadcast, it's supposed to put their athletes to the spotlight. But it's so nice to have these small interviews

 

[MarieM]

Biased it is.
I hate partisanships in commentary.
And no I'm sorry, Tessa&Scott wouldn't be able to do the Moonlight Sonata in the same way. Because that's not where they are at this moment. That is not their strengh. I hate that they are trying to throw shade like that but we're getting used to it.

 

[Anyasnake]

Biased it is.
I hate partisanships in commentary.
And no I'm sorry, Tessa&Scott wouldn't be able to do the Moonlight Sonata in the same way. Because that's not where they are at this moment. That is not their strengh. I hate that they are trying to throw shade like that but we're getting used to it.

I'm so used to it now it It's to have a reassurance thing I guess ? Even though I find Kurt to like P/C a ton more than before, he told PJ Kwong he prefered their FD (Tbh, both him and Lane felt sounded more skeptical than usual right after V/M FD that I got surprised).

I'd like to have your opinion @MarieM : I rewatched both FD, without music to compare the so-called difficulty in both programs. Doing it I noticed a couple of things : Both have quite the same numbers of crossovers in transitions (the dancing part of it is different but there is nothing more difficult in one program or another), and in the feet in the step sequences, V/M have accents with head and fast arm movements (hence why it looks more difficult ?) but not the deepest edges. While I'll say V/M have acrobatic entries in lifts, P/C have the smoothest. But I didn't find the overall difficulty of one program, as superior as the other as everyone claims.

 

[Miloune]

Tbh, both him and Lane felt sounded more skeptical than usual right after V/M FD that I got surprised)

Maybe they both already knew the results and looked for reasons explaining VM defeat when doing the commentary.. Or was the commentary done live?

 

[Anyasnake]

Maybe they both already knew the results and looked for reasons explaining VM defeat when doing the commentary.. Or was the commentary done live?

Maybe, I don't know if it was live I don't think so. But I doubt they watched it beforehand.
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9_-0ByXycU if you want it)
It just surprised me from the usual "Canadian point of view" they usually give us that's all

 

[EYGH]

I'm so used to it now it It's to have a reassurance thing I guess ? Even though I find Kurt to like P/C a ton more than before, he told PJ Kwong he prefered their FD (Tbh, both him and Lane felt sounded more skeptical than usual right after V/M FD that I got surprised).

I'd like to have your opinion @MarieM : I rewatched both FD, without music to compare the so-called difficulty in both programs. Doing it I noticed a couple of things : Both have quite the same numbers of crossovers in transitions (the dancing part of it is different but there is nothing more difficult in one program or another), and in the feet in the step sequences, V/M have accents with head and P/Cfast arm movements (hence why it looks more difficult ?) but not the deepest edges. While I'll say V/M have acrobatic entries in lifts, P/C have the smoothest. But I didn't find the overall difficulty of one program, as superior as the other as everyone claims.

Thanks for saying clearly what has been bothering me about the P/C critics who systematically posit that V/M have the better skating skills, are doing much harder things and have better deeper edges.
I rewatched several times the SD and really I'm blown by Gabi and Guillaumes Sd, their edges in particular, their body movements which are totally latin (very Rio Carnaval) , the whole dance is very attractive and addictive. I love it, even the music which has grown on me.
Also Gabriella doesn't have shallow edges and certainely not inferior edges to Tessa in the SD as far as I can tell after many reviewings.
What V/M have are the accrobatic lifts. I like the one in the SD, one being the maximum per dance as far as accrobatics are concerned for me and no crotch lift ever !

 

[Anyasnake]

Thanks for saying clearly what has been bothering me about the P/C critics who systematically posit that V/M have the better skating skills, are doing much harder things and have better deeper edges.
I rewatched several times the SD and really I'm blown by Gabi and Guillaumes Sd, their edges in particular, their body movements which are totally latin (very Rio Carnaval) , the whole dance is very attractive and addictive. I love it, even the music which has grown on me.
Also Gabriella doesn't have shallow edges and certainely not inferior edges to Tessa in the SD as far as I can tell after many reviewings.
What V/M have are the accrobatic lifts. I like the one in the SD, one being the maximum per dance as far as accrobatics are concerned for me and no crotch lift ever !

There is a reason every judge (including Canadian) gives the high marks and GOEs. You can't show up thinking it's in your bag you have to skate well. It's a bit of an excuse (that doesn't work tbh).
From a strict "dancing" point of view, I think they are very good (I think they have the better arm movement in the business too ). People are digging the SD much more than anticipated
I don't really know where the fact that Gaby has "shallow edges" comes from tbh. I get you don't want to watch the feet when looking at them (they have much more to offer, the big picture is their strength), however when you do focus on the feet, with no music, I don't see it. I see big edges too. Because she shines more than before, people are looking more at her and say "wait she is good". (Of course, she does twizzles on her own, right ? )
Reminds me when people were saying : "Charlie is so much better than Meryl". What ? Before I went to the forums I never saw anything like that. Weird how this kind of statements easily spread

 

[cocotaffy]

The other thing bothering me especially in TSL recap is why when talking about politics they always mention Didier but never the Canadian fed, are they supposed to be like the white sheep ? I would think politics would come from every corners come Olympics yet only Didier's name and sometimes Marina Zoueva's are talked about. Are we supposed to believe V/M are not supported and pushed by their own Fed ??? Plus Didier hasn't even been able to be elected at the head of ISU so I doubt he's that intimidating. They also systematically open the ID segment by naming Didier, every single time, it's getting ridiculous. I'm sorry but this week end P/C just skated both programs cleaner especially the SD actually, no need for Didier's intervention. Their pattern entry was mind blowing and fortunately the camera shot was perfect to understand how deep their edges are even Ben Agosto mentioned it. I also think photos capture their deep edges and matching body lines very well.
As for CBC, they're the kings of backhanded compliments. Nothing new. But they're getting a bit better than when P/C started. Maybe once V/M retire they'll acknowledge that P/C's programs to look that effortless require astounding SS and it's not easier than an all-in-your face type of choreography. Wishful thinking I know ...

 

[barbarafan]

Maybe they both already knew the results and looked for reasons explaining VM defeat when doing the commentary.. Or was the commentary done live?

Often show taped next day. I am sure they watch it ahead. As well T/S are Carol's team's (G/P) rivals and as she is a biased commentator so she has subtle shade for them...It used to not be so subtle but a lot of people complained.

 

[annie_mg]

I also don't get people's comments about Gabriella having ugly positions during lifts and not stretching her legs/pointing her toes. I never noticed that and I'm really curious to see photo/video material proving that. I'm fine with being proven wrong.

 

[Miloune]

There is a reason every judge (including Canadian) gives the high marks and GOEs. You can't show up thinking it's in your bag you have to skate well. It's a bit of an excuse (that doesn't work tbh).
From a strict "dancing" point of view, I think they are very good (I think they have the better arm movement in the business too ). People are digging the SD much more than anticipated
I don't really know where the fact that Gaby has "shallow edges" comes from tbh. I get you don't want to watch the feet when looking at them (they have much more to offer, the big picture is their strength), however when you do focus on the feet, with no music, I don't see it. I see big edges too. Because she shines more than before, people are looking more at her and say "wait she is good". (Of course, she does twizzles on her own, right ? )
Reminds me when people were saying : "Charlie is so much better than Meryl". What ? Before I went to the forums I never saw anything like that. Weird how this kind of statements easily spread

Somehow, the argument that "Guillaume is a stronger skater than Gabby" has become "Gabby has poor skating skills" in the mouth of the haters. Of course Guillaume is exceptional, but he is when compared to any skater, not just Gabby. It's just a lame and false excuse to criticize P/C...

The other thing bothering me especially in TSL recap is why when talking about politics they always mention Didier but never the Canadian fed, are they supposed to be like the white sheep ? I would think politics would come from every corners come Olympics yet only Didier's name and sometimes Marina Zoueva's are talked about. Are we supposed to believe V/M are not supported and pushed by their own Fed ??? Plus Didier hasn't even been able to be elected at the head of ISU so I doubt he's that intimidating. They also systematically open the ID segment by naming Didier, every single time, it's getting ridiculous. I'm sorry but this week end P/C just skated both programs cleaner especially the SD actually, no need for Didier's intervention. Their pattern entry was mind blowing and fortunately the camera shot was perfect to understand how deep their edges are even Ben Agosto mentioned it. I also think photos capture their deep edges and matching body lines very well.
As for CBC, they're the kings of backhanded compliments. Nothing new. But they're getting a bit better than when P/C started. Maybe once V/M retire they'll acknowledge that P/C's programs to look that effortless require astounding SS and it's not easier than an all in your face type of choreography. Wishful thinking I know ...

You should have seen the hashtag #GailhaguetandISU trending on twitter (among VM ubers).
Same as "Gabby's poor skills", he is being used as an excuse to explain P/C's results...

It's all very disrespectful to the skaters.

 

[EYGH]

V/M ubers are quite something. They are scary and so many people feel obliged to compliment V/M when they say something positive about P/C. I think TSL is a case in point besides being gossips and making innuendos and thrownig shade wherever.

Also I think these ubers should be called on the abuse they are throwing towards P/C on social media or even on Gaillaguet whom I really don't like. I don't understand why he is still at the head of the FFSG but he is and it is not shoking that he supports the French team. He also is neither the first one nor the last one to do politicking.

Skate Canada doesn't have such a pristine reputation either and last year at Worlds who has been underscored in the SD ? - P/C. Who has been overscored in the FD ? V/M. Was there a French judge in the panel ? No. A Canadian one ? Yes and was that judge fair to the French ? Not exactly.
So I'm totally fed up with the hollier than thou finger pointing accusatory and denigrating crowd of V/M ubers.

And implying P/C are cheaters and won simply because Didier took things into his hands is not only absurd but utterly insulting.

 

[Anyasnake]

Often show taped next day. I am sure they watch it ahead. As well T/S are Carol's team's (G/P) rivals and as she is a biased commentator so she has subtle shade for them...It used to not be so subtle but a lot of people complained.

IIRC, she wasn't happy for V/M return at all at first.

 

[Anyasnake]

V/M ubers are quite something. They are scary and so many people feel obliged to compliment V/M when they say something positive about P/C. I think TSL is a case in point besides being gossips and making innuendos and thrownig shade wherever.

Also I think these ubers should be called on the abuse they are throwing towards P/C on social media or even on Gaillaguet whom I really don't like. I don't understand why he is still at the head of the FFSG but he is and it is not shoking that he supports the French team. He also is neither the first one nor the last one to do politicking.

Skate Canada doesn't have such a pristine reputation either and last year at Worlds who has been underscored in the SD ? - P/C. Who has been overscored in the FD ? V/M. Was there a French judge in the panel ? No. A Canadian one ? Yes and was that judge fair to the French ? Not exactly.
So I'm totally fed up with the hollier than thou finger pointing accusatory and denigrating crowd of V/M ubers.

And implying P/C are cheaters and won simply because Didier took things into his hands is not only absurd but utterly insulting.

I very much agree with everything said here. Those ubers, you don't find them massively on the forums because there is regulation. Twitter is full of ubers who didn't even watch the competition, looked up at the results and got angry about "corruption". And a lot of them have the worst of all : national bias.
It's fine I get it, it's normal to support someone from your country. I'm french and I support P/C (even though it's the 1st time I'm inclined toward a french skater and not a rival). But I don't support them because of the flag, it's because of the qualities and everything (Us the French, we are even "scared" sometimes to be considered too nationalistic about that even when we know we're not )
But I don't know how they can all come in full force on twitter and be so agressive. I've seen P/C ubers do that on YouTube. But never in that extent, I genuinely couldn't believe it. It's borderline dangerous at this point.

I'm thinking TSL wants to keep its audience. But honestly its their issue if they can't handle criticism. Why starting by talking about Didier ? Everyone dislikes him, we get him, I want him out. He was the reason P/C didn't go to Sochi, hello (wake up). I'm not mentionning him anymore.
I don't know why people seem to think that either USA and CAN fed "suck" at politicking or aren't doing as much as the europeans... this belief is strong, yet so false.

This weekend at GPF, P/C were pristine, the SD in particular was flawless. It's not a matter of taste at this point, you're judged on elements. Why does TSL fails to mention that particular point ? It's like they went all political but didn't watch. It went exactly as everyone thought it would go : if a team isn't clean and the other isn't, the 1st one wins. It would have been the other way if P/C weren't and V/M were.

 

[EYGH]

[QUOTE="Anyasnake, post: 5211219, member: 7363
I don't why people seem to think that either USA and CAN fed "suck" at politicking or aren't doing as much as the europeans... this belief is strong, yet so false.
.[/QUOTE]

Canada and USA (just like Russia or Italy, ...) do participate in politicking just as much as anybody else and their judges are not perfect but there is this belief ingrained in North America that they hold the moral high ground. The level of hypocrisy is quite astounding and they are very good at the finger pointing thing. The fact that Gaillaguet got caught with his pants down doesn't mean others weren't doing it just that they were doing it with better skill.

Just like with doping. Do we really believe that only the Russians are using illegal substances and are cheaters in sport ? There is a good dose of selective memory besides being willingfully blind/forgetfull on certain events.

 

[Anyasnake]

selective memory

 

[MarieM]

I'm so used to it now it It's to have a reassurance thing I guess ? Even though I find Kurt to like P/C a ton more than before, he told PJ Kwong he prefered their FD (Tbh, both him and Lane felt sounded more skeptical than usual right after V/M FD that I got surprised).

I'd like to have your opinion @MarieM : I rewatched both FD, without music to compare the so-called difficulty in both programs. Doing it I noticed a couple of things : Both have quite the same numbers of crossovers in transitions (the dancing part of it is different but there is nothing more difficult in one program or another), and in the feet in the step sequences, V/M have accents with head and fast arm movements (hence why it looks more difficult ?) but not the deepest edges. While I'll say V/M have acrobatic entries in lifts, P/C have the smoothest. But I didn't find the overall difficulty of one program, as superior as the other as everyone claims.

Both are equal technicians. V&M have IMO the edge as far as lifts go (complex entries, complex poses and going out), but P&C do have more deep edges, being younger helping them here.
Steps are about the same, but V&M are able to make you think they do more complex turns which isn't the case. They have more transitions in the SD, but I think the FD they have the same amount.

What I think is different in both teams is how they approach the sport. Tessa&Scott are amazing competitors. They've always pushed the technical enveloppe at the expense of everything else.
What they're not? They don't project as much as I'd love them to. Tessa is absolutly brilliant at projecting, but Scott never was. He's trying, but maybe way too hard this season. They've reworked the programs to put him back as the supporting partner, and IMO, it's working better.
Being older doesn't help them with the run of their blades, and it was pretty obvious in the pattern at the GPF. But IMO, two months is a long time, and they may get that easyness back by Olys.

Gabriella&Guillaume don't showcase the difficulty of what they're doing. They're aiming at something else: meshing everything in one single program so that you hardly notice the elements. But IMO, as with the canadians, it's thanks to Gabriella that those programs do work. Guillaume is kind of a blank state, and if you want to compare to Scott, he never ever does things. If Gabriella is off, the programs don't work.
I wish they'd changed at least their spin. I've seen them doing it for at least 10 years. I think their lifts are fitting their programs, but IMO if they do stay on another cycle, that's those elements they'll need to better.
They've taken the safest route with their FD, building on their strength rather than trying to reinvent themselves. IMO, that's the last year they can do that.

We are truly fortunate V&M came back to push P&C to work more and stop relying on what they do best at the detriment of Short Dances. And witnessing two teams of this caliber is a treat that we haven't had the chance to witness since Gritshuk&Platov and Krylova&Ovsiannikov retired.

 

[Miloune]

I agree about PC, I really do hope they take a risk next year. Otherwise the competitions will get boring, for us and for them .

I'm already looking forward to what they'll do with a tango in the short. That will be interesting.

 

[Anyasnake]

Thank you @MarieM ! That is a great analysis !

 

[Enchanted]

I do not see Guillaume as a blank state. IMO he projects just as much as Gabriella. I've seen them live both at shows and at competitions and currently one of their strengths is how even they are in their presentation and interpretation, they seem to be at the same page on what they want to achieve with their programs.

 

[ItalianFan]

Just like with doping. Do we really believe that only the Russians are using illegal substances and are cheaters in sport ? There is a good dose of selective memory besides being willingfully blind/forgetfull on certain events.

Anybody remember Lance Armstrong?

 

[cocotaffy]

I do not see Guillaume as a blank state. IMO he projects just as much as Gabriella. I've seen them live both at shows and at competitions and currently one of their strengths is how even they are in their presentation and interpretation, they seem to be at the same page on what they want to achieve with their programs.

No he's most certainly not but he projects differently than Gaby hence the fact they perfectly complement one another. For me, he expresses everything through his body movements but not so much his face, that might be why he could be described as a blank state. She expresses so many emotions through her face and also her arms. Robin Cousins said something really interesting about Guillaume: he's such an incredible talent, it just oozes from the ankle around. Basically, his body does all the talking.

 

[Twilight1]

The other thing bothering me especially in TSL recap is why when talking about politics they always mention Didier but never the Canadian fed, are they supposed to be like the white sheep ? I would think politics would come from every corners come Olympics yet only Didier's name and sometimes Marina Zoueva's are talked about. Are we supposed to believe V/M are not supported and pushed by their own Fed ??? Plus Didier hasn't even been able to be elected at the head of ISU so I doubt he's that intimidating. They also systematically open the ID segment by naming Didier, every single time, it's getting ridiculous. I'm sorry but this week end P/C just skated both programs cleaner especially the SD actually, no need for Didier's intervention. Their pattern entry was mind blowing and fortunately the camera shot was perfect to understand how deep their edges are even Ben Agosto mentioned it. I also think photos capture their deep edges and matching body lines very well.
As for CBC, they're the kings of backhanded compliments. Nothing new. But they're getting a bit better than when P/C started. Maybe once V/M retire they'll acknowledge that P/C's programs to look that effortless require astounding SS and it's not easier than an all-in-your face type of choreography. Wishful thinking I know ...

I am not sure who Canada Fed is supporting at this point. France really only has a sure medal in ice dance and an outside shot in pairs.

Canada has a legit shot in all 4 disciplines... with only men as the outside shot. Canada hasn't had a gold medal in ladies since Barbara Ann Scott so with Meds injured maybe that is where their energy lays? Or it could be pairs.

The fact is Canada has an almost guaranteed 2 medals (team and ice dance) so politiking could be to spread the gold around with a shot at 3 more.

That said, P&C are deserving gold medalists come Oly's and poltiks should not diminish this fact.

Canada, France, Russia, China, Japan, and US politik and anyone who says otherwise are in denial.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

I do not see Guillaume as a blank state. IMO he projects just as much as Gabriella.

LOL, someone here thinks Cizeron is like a blank slate? Even Charlie white said at Paris he would prefer that he dialed it back and let her shine more. Which was ridiculous to me....

If someone thinks Cizeron is a blank slate I can't even imagine what they must think of Charlie white then? Flatline?

 

[EYGH]

Anybody remember Lance Armstrong?

Among others. Like with politicking doping concerns everybody. No one is actually totally spared.

 

[Anyasnake]

I've found this superb small documentary of Catherine Pinard featuring P/C : https://twitter.com/CGalipeauTJ/status/940416084565401600

All about the creative process ! It's really good

 

[cocotaffy]

I've found this superb small documentary of Catherine Pinard featuring P/C : https://twitter.com/CGalipeauTJ/status/940416084565401600

All about the creative process ! It's really good

Thank you very much, it was extremely interesting and I did notice it's the first year Catherine Pinard is officially listed as P/C's coach along DLH. Happy she gets the recognition she deserves. She's like an emotion birther, no wonder Gaby and Guillaume are able to dig so deep and makes us feel so much through their movements.

 

[muffinplus]

I've found this superb small documentary of Catherine Pinard featuring P/C : https://twitter.com/CGalipeauTJ/status/940416084565401600

All about the creative process ! It's really good

Thanks for posting that... looks great

 

[millyskate]

Biased it is.
I hate partisanships in commentary.
And no I'm sorry, Tessa&Scott wouldn't be able to do the Moonlight Sonata in the same way. Because that's not where they are at this moment. That is not their strengh. I hate that they are trying to throw shade like that but we're getting used to it.

Yeah, nobody would be able to skate Moonlight sonata like that. Not close. Precisely because of points below.
And I know I've said this several times, but the speed...... it's not a small difference. Live, it's spectacular.

I also don't get people's comments about Gabriella having ugly positions during lifts and not stretching her legs/pointing her toes. I never noticed that and I'm really curious to see photo/video material proving that. I'm fine with being proven wrong.

As someone who has abundantly photographed Ice Dance in the past couple of seasons I can confidently say that it's absolute nonsense. They can't hit an ugly position and that's precisely what differentiates them from other teams. The faces, the fingers, everything is absolutely on point *especially* during the lifts where others can often be seen pulling faces, having lose legs, struggling with the man "hoisting" up the female skater into whatever position. I get about 20 good P&C pictures to every 1 for other teams, and I get that part of that is they inspire me - but I know from other photographers with no horse in this race that they also have a particularly high hit rate with them.


I think that possibly what people may be referring to is them not having "Ta-Da" lifts, and instead integrating them into the choreography For example their SD lift is done in the movement, there's no "stop look at me I'm so acrobatic/flexible" moment.