Increasingly likely “Russia” will be banned from Pyeongchang

[hanca]

Oh...you didn't want to understand me..The asthmatic skiiers and swimmers are using the inhaler legally. And if you check how many Oly champs have asthma you will be surprised. So there are two options the real asthmatic athlets have big advantage. The second option many of them are cheater and they want to win with false medical diagnosis. But they have big advantage, too. The final conclusion they would compete separately.

No system is completely fair. I agree with you that allowing Therapeutic Use Exemptions means increasing chance of some athletes using to cheat. In my view they should stop with TUE. If someone needs to use banned medications to be able to do the sport, they may have to get used to the fact that they are medically not suitable for elite competitions. I would separate medications to two categories- allowed or not allowed. Who needs to use to not allowed ones, they won’t be eligible to compete. And the allowed ones are available to everyone.

 

[hanca]

@lala I guarantee you that asthma is not something people get a false diagnosis to win with. It's really something that is just that common, particularly in Western countries. And asthma medicines don't give you an advantage unless you're taking them incorrectly.

They can, pretty easily. All they need is to find one crooked doctor. And there are some around, in all countries.

 

[VGThuy]

No system is completely fair. I agree with you that allowing Therapeutic Use Exemptions means increasing chance of some athletes using to cheat. In my view they should stop with TUE. If someone needs to use banned medications to be able to do the sport, they may have to get used to the fact that they are medically not suitable for elite competitions. I would separate medications to two categories- allowed or not allowed. Who needs to use to not allowed ones, they won’t be eligible to compete. And the allowed ones are available to everyone.

That seems like a fair way of doing it. However, I think anyone proposing that should consult with some disability rights advocates and medical doctors and experts (not just one but a community) to see if this is actually a fair way of doing things or if it's just needlessly discriminatory.

 

[Willin]

@hanca I later edited to add this, but research has found that asthma medications don't actually increase athletic performance, and therefore should be removed from the banned substances list.

 

[lala]

@lala I guarantee you that asthma is not something people get a false diagnosis to win with. It's really something that is just that common, particularly in Western countries. And asthma medicines don't give you an advantage unless you're taking them incorrectly.

I don't know. But I read it and our swimmer from national team said what he said...and I believe him because he had no interest in saying it.

 

[hanca]

@hanca I later edited to add this, but research has found that asthma medications don't actually increase athletic performance, and therefore should be removed from the banned substances list.

It did help with my skating though. Helped me breathe better. And I have no idea if I have asthma or not.

 

[hanca]

That seems like a fair way of doing it. However, I think anyone proposing that should consult with some disability rights advocates and medical doctors and experts (not just one but a community) to see if this is actually a fair way of doing things or if it's just needlessly discriminatory.

I don’t think this could be called discriminatory. The same way some professions have various requirements, for example my father used to be in army and he had regular fitness checks. If he failed, they would kicked him out. If you are a wheelchair user, you are unlikely to work as a bodyguard. If you need to use crutches, you wouldn’t get a job as a flight attendant...there are many occupations that have certain requirements on certain standard of health or fitness level.

 

[Rock2]

I can't wrap my head around Russia being banned from Pyeonchang. I have to think some late-breaking story is going to hit with some deal cut or new measures put in place. #denial

Having said that, if Putin or others are out there publicly pointing fingers, this is concerning. Suggests hope is lost, at which point the game becomes distancing yourself from the guilty.

I similarly don't see specific sports being banned while others like skating being allowed to go. I don't get the sense the IOC is being that surgical. What they are trying to understand is if there is enough evidence of systematic doping at the country level, not the sport level, I believe. So, they may see a few sports with widespread problems as reason enough to ban the country. Yikes.

Regardless, I just won't believe it until I see it.

 

[VGThuy]

I don’t think this could be called discriminatory. The same way some professions have various requirements, for example my father used to be in army and he had regular fitness checks. If he failed, they would kicked him out. If you are a wheelchair user, you are unlikely to work as a bodyguard. If you need to use crutches, you wouldn’t get a job as a flight attendant...there are many occupations that have certain requirements on certain standard of health or fitness level.

It is discriminatory, but many times some discrimination is ok and understandable. Not everything should be accommodated. However, I think we as a society should use rationality to determine when discriminatory acts are legitimate for this one context and when they're based on irrationality and are thus needless and over-inclusive. Plus, it's up to sporting bodies to determine what kind of message of inclusiveness and exclusiveness that they want to send out there. We all know it's in various sports' best interest to increase interest and participation.

 

[hanca]

It is discriminatory, but many times some discrimination is ok and understandable. Not everything should be accommodated. However, I think we as a society should use rationality to determine when discriminatory acts are legitimate for this one context and when they're based on irrationality and are thus needless and over-inclusive.

I don’t think it is discriminatory. For example, some jobs require you to be certain gender. If there is a justifiable reason why you need to hire males or females, it is not discriminatory to put it in the advert that you are looking for males/females.

 

[Amantide]

If Voronov makes the team and then doesn't get to the Olympics, I will cut someone.

Geee, really. Can he decide on his own and go without representing Russia? If yes, he should def. do that. Feck the flag. This would be his last chance.

 

[VGThuy]

I don’t think it is discriminatory. For example, some jobs require you to be certain gender. If there is a justifiable reason why you need to hire males or females, it is not discriminatory to put it in the advert that you are looking for males/females.

That is discriminatory. Just because it's discriminatory doesn't mean that it's not allowed or legitimate or rational. Our laws and many different job requirements all have discriminating features and/or requirements but that's ok because often times those jobs are specialized and only certain people can do them. So what we're arguing here is if it's ok in this context to discriminate against individuals who have pre-existing conditions who may need a waiver so they can use medication that is otherwise banned from participating and competing in these sports due to fairness concerns. I'm saying if we were to do that, I hope we do it in a way that's rational and not needlessly discriminatory (not not discriminatory generally) and thus over-including those who receive no real advantage over other athletes from taking that medication due to their condition.

 

[clairecloutier]

I don't even come close to knowing all the medical details of this, but asthma (and its associated illnesses) is a really, really widespread, common condition. Discouraging athletes with asthma from taking part in competition (by disallowing asthma meds) seems draconian. I mean, two of the Olympic champions from Sochi (Charlie White, Yuzuru Hanyu) have asthma. So I'd be very hesitant about taking that kind of step.

I think in many cases, asthma meds are used simply to bring people with serious allergies/asthma up to the level that non-asthmatic people are at, or close to it. I know that's the case for me personally--even with allergy meds, my breathing is still not as good as most "normal" people's. I doubt there's anything I could take that would actually make it better than normal.

But I would assume this matter is looked at carefully by those in charge.

 

[BittyBug]

Geee, really. Can he decide on his own and go without representing Russia? If yes, he should def. do that. Feck the flag. This would be his last chance.

Maybe he could represent the Independent Republic of the Pleather Pants.

 

[Amantide]

Maybe he could represent the Independent Republic of the Pleather Pants.

With all our hearts and blessings.

 

[hanca]

That is discriminatory. Just because it's discriminatory doesn't mean that it's not allowed or legitimate or rational. Our laws and many different job requirements all have discriminating features and/or requirements but that's ok because often times those jobs are specialized and only certain people can do them. So what we're arguing here is if it's ok in this context to discriminate against individuals who have pre-existing conditions who may need a waiver so they can use medication that is otherwise banned from participating and competing in these sports due to fairness concerns. I'm saying if we were to do that, I hope we do it in a way that's rational and not needlessly discriminatory (not not discriminatory generally) and thus over-including those who receive no real advantage over other athletes from taking that medication due to their condition.

The example I wrote above, the one you called discriminatory, is not discriminatory according to our law. So I wonder why you think your law is superior to ours? Here it is called ‘occupational requirements’, but the employer would have to be able to justify this. I don’t think it would be hard to justify that an alite athlete is not suitable for elite sport if he/she relies on banned medications. Although they may have to be able to justify why the medications are banned.

But if you are worried about not discriminating needlessly, you could make more medications allowed (for everyone). Then even those with some disabilities will be able to compete.

 

[VGThuy]

I think our laws often promote discrimination. It’s sort of supposed to. Often for good reasons. Sometimes not or being based on outdated data and ideas.

 

[AxelAnnie]

I don't even come close to knowing all the medical details of this, but asthma (and its associated illnesses) is a really, really widespread, common condition. Discouraging athletes with asthma from taking part in competition (by disallowing asthma meds) seems draconian. I mean, two of the Olympic champions from Sochi (Charlie White, Yuzuru Hanyu) have asthma. So I'd be very hesitant about taking that kind of step.

I think in many cases, asthma meds are used simply to bring people with serious allergies/asthma up to the level that non-asthmatic people are at, or close to it. I know that's the case for me personally--even with allergy meds, my breathing is still not as good as most "normal" people's. I doubt there's anything I could take that would actually make it better than normal.

But I would assume this matter is looked at carefully by those in charge.

I think the issue would not be with the use of the medication for the purposes intended. The problem is when athletes who do not have asthma, take it to open their airways for an extra boost.

There are a lot of meds that when abused have interesting side affects. I rode with a woman physician for years, and before a horse show she would take some beta blockers to calm her nerves. I was totally shocked.

If there are rules for meds, I think that is reasonable. Everyone is informed of the rules, and everyone follows the same rules. There should med medical exemptions, and athletes who have an exemption could be tested regularly to make sure the meds are not being abused.

 

[hanca]

I think our laws often promote discrimination. It’s sort of supposed to. Often for good reasons. Sometimes not or being based on outdated data and ideas.

I guess it depends how you define discrimination. If you define it as ‘any exclusion regardless the reasons for it’, or if you define it as ‘exclusion that is not properly/objectively justified’. It seems to me that for you it is the former and for me the latter.

 

[caseyedwards]

https://mobile.nytimes.com/comments/2017/11/28/sports/olympics/russia-doping.html#modal-login

Rodchenkov diaries report from NYT! Ruiz has another blockbuster story. There’s no way russia ever competes at Olympics again.

 

[hanca]

I think the issue would not be with the use of the medication for the purposes intended. The problem is when athletes who do not have asthma, take it to open their airways for an extra boost.

There are a lot of meds that when abused have interesting side affects. I rode with a woman physician for years, and before a horse show she would take some beta blockers to calm her nerves. I was totally shocked.

If there are rules for meds, I think that is reasonable. Everyone is informed of the rules, and everyone follows the same rules. There should med medical exemptions, and athletes who have an exemption could be tested regularly to make sure the meds are not being abused.

That’s not so black and white though. For example, I went to doctor because I couldn’t breathe when I was skating. Doctor did the tests, said that it is not conclusive. I have no problems outside the rink and there can be asthma that is exercise induced, and especially when someone exercises in cold temperatures. So the doctor told me that unless he would be testing me at the ice skating rink when I exercise, he couldn’t be certain whether I have asthma or not. He gave me an inhaler. So if I was an elite athlete, would you say that I should be taking it or not? The doctor prescribed it to me and told me to use it, but I don’t have asthma diagnosis. Since then several others doctors prescribed it to me (when I run out, I go and get a new one).

 

[kwanfan1818]

Oh...you didn't want to understand me..The asthmatic skiiers and swimmers are using the inhaler legally. And if you check how many Oly champs have asthma you will be surprised. So there are two options the real asthmatic athlets have big advantage. The second option many of them are cheater and they want to win with false medical diagnosis. But they have big advantage, too. The final conclusion they would compete separately.

You're leaving out a third option: that the athletes with asthma start with a deficit in lung function that is offset by any advantage that the short-term inhaler's drugs might given them, ie, to bring them to par with athletes without asthma.

 

[skatingguy]

Oh...you didn't want to understand me..The asthmatic skiiers and swimmers are using the inhaler legally. And if you check how many Oly champs have asthma you will be surprised. So there are two options the real asthmatic athlets have big advantage. The second option many of them are cheater and they want to win with false medical diagnosis. But they have big advantage, too. The final conclusion they would compete separately.

No, I misunderstood what you saying. Upon reading some more information there seems to be a few reasons why swimmers might have a higher rate of asthma. For example, chlorine rates in the air of swimming pools is one theorized cause and swimming in non-chlorinated bodies of water reduces the risk of developing asthma. It also seems that the swimmers in Western countries are more likely to be asthmatic then swimmers from other parts of the world but asthma is more common in Western countries. I'm going to continue to read about this, but I have to go to work now.

 

[hanca]

No, I misunderstood what you saying. Upon reading some more information there seems to be a few reasons why swimmers might have a higher rate of asthma. For example, chlorine rates in the air of swimming pools is one theorized cause and swimming in non-chlorinated bodies of water reduces the risk of developing asthma. It also seems that the swimmers in Western countries are more likely to be asthmatic then swimmers from other parts of the world but asthma is more common in Western countries. I'm going to continue to read about this, but I have to go to work now.

Yes, but lala didn’t say that swimmers have higher rate of asthma. Lala said that the winners swimmers have higher rate of asthma. That’s a huge difference.

 

[Bellanca]

Imho, the IOC cannot find their a$$es with BOTH hands, let alone appear as if they are seriously going to 'ban' a country, a country the size of Russia, at that. It's all too rich, entirely transparent and thoroughly corrupt. Laughable, really.

 

[AxelAnnie]

That’s not so black and white though. For example, I went to doctor because I couldn’t breathe when I was skating. Doctor did the tests, said that it is not conclusive. I have no problems outside the rink and there can be asthma that is exercise induced, and especially when someone exercises in cold temperatures. So the doctor told me that unless he would be testing me at the ice skating rink when I exercise, he couldn’t be certain whether I have asthma or not. He gave me an inhaler. So if I was an elite athlete, would you say that I should be taking it or not? The doctor prescribed it to me and told me to use it, but I don’t have asthma diagnosis. Since then several others doctors prescribed it to me (when I run out, I go and get a new one).

With my totally limited knowledge.... I would think that an elite athlete who is experiencing asthma symptoms while skating should have the resources available to them to be tested while skating, and treated and tested as appropriate.

I suspect that no one expects a diabetic to forego their insulin. BTW - I have asthma. In the spring when they cut the grass at my barn I have had to leave the riding lesson because I couldn't breathe. Not fun!

 

[AxelAnnie]

Yes, but lala didn’t say that swimmers have higher rate of asthma. Lala said that the winners swimmers have higher rate of asthma. That’s a huge difference.

I suspect the chlorine is a huge contributor, if not causal. It has to be horribly irritating. Winners are going faster, and probably spend the most time in the pool with the yuk.

 

[Willin]

https://mobile.nytimes.com/comments/2017/11/28/sports/olympics/russia-doping.html#modal-login

Rodchenkov diaries report from NYT! Ruiz has another blockbuster story. There’s no way russia ever competes at Olympics again.

Very interesting. If these diary entries are the real thing - which they appear to be - they would prove that Rodchenkov isn't lying.
Based on how he acted in Icarus, I have no trouble believing that he is really this meticulous, as he was incredibly meticulous in his doping plan for the director of that film. Not to mention how meticulous his record keeping was in regards to his career and life history. It's amazing the details he remembers, but if he did take notes this detailed it would make sense. He also seemed highly paranoid about being killed or silenced for coming forward, so that may be another reason he'd keep such detailed notes to back himself up.

 

[Bellanca]

The New York Times?? A reliable source?? Since when?? Thanks for the levity! Whew! Good one!!

 

[el henry]

The New York Times?? A reliable source?? Since when?? Thanks for the levity! Whew! Good one!!

Since I know several reporters at the Times (or did) and since thanks to them (ETA; in part, of course there was other reliable coverage), we know about the doping scandal, they are indeed a reliable source.

Thinking that you can discount the excellent investigative reporting at the Times with a few emojis.
Definitely my laugh for the day. Thanks!