Increasingly likely “Russia” will be banned from Pyeongchang

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suki said:
I am confused by this statement. Russia did very well in Sochi. Even if they tried to take medals from Russians, it would not necessarily benefit North American skaters, since the medals were spread among Asian and European countries as well.
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They tried to disqualify Sotnikova and even the Russian team by disqualifying Bobrova. There was gleeful discussion on fsu about how that would award Gracie Gold a bronze, the team gold to Canada and team silver to the USA.
 
Here is the conundrum the IOC faces - if they allow Russian athletes to compete as independent Olympians, if they refuse to allow the Russian national anthem to be played for any Russian gold medalists, etc, then Putin has said he will pull all Russians from the Olympics. So, the IOC has to decide if they are willing to call Putin's bluff.

Bach can want what Bach wants but I'm not sure he will get what he wants. @InsideTheGames is one of the leading Olympics news orgs and their sourcing is usually impeccable. The thought from their editor is that the Rio option is off the table due to RUSADA's continued non-compliance. we shall see what happens though it won't surprise me if Putin does yank the entire Russian squad from Pyeongchang.

As to whether or not it is fair to those athletes who compete in sports that don't have a history of doping... I am not too sussed over it. None of this would be a problem if there hadn't been a state-sponsored doping program in the first place. Whether that program only benefited athletes in certain sports or it benefited all Russians is irrelevant because I can guarantee you that if Putin & Co had thought there was a need or a drug cocktail that would have helped the figure skaters or curlers or whomever then those athletes likely would have been doped. Just because they weren't doesn't mean the will to have done so, if necessary or possible, didn't exist. And that is why this whole situation with Sochi and the sample-swapping, the elaborate lengths to which the Russian government went to ensure "clean" results, needs to be addressed with more than a mere slap on the wrist like they got for Rio. If truly clean athletes are deprived of the opportunity to compete then maybe, just maybe, they will be the ones who have the character, strength, and determination to force the change upon the Russian sports culture that is so very necessary.

Will Russian non-participation in Pyeongchang alter the competitive landscape, especially in the ladies figure skating field? Sure. Oh well. Their non-participation will not stop the Japanese, Canadian, Italian or American media from touting an Olympic medalist. And most of the public won't realize what an impact the loss of the Russian ladies on the field would mean. The only figure skating discipline where no Russians competing is likely to seep into the greater public's consciousness as a real loss would be pairs because that is the field that Russia has well and truly dominated for decades and the SLC scandal is still recent enough for most casual Olympics viewers to easily recall. And, even in recalling that, there could easily be a sentiment (At least amongst North American viewers) of "well, the Russians cheat to win, so no big loss."
 
WADA was initiated by the IOC: it's not an outside or truly independent body that imposes itself on the IOC. I am far from a supporter of WADA, but it's not my monster: it's the IOC's. WADA's Code is referenced multiple times in the Olympic Charter as being non-negotiable, but, as we've seen many times, "non-negotiable" needs air quotes.

It seems that rather than backing WADA directly and banning Russia, the IOC may be trying to box Putin into refusing its terms, or at least pre-testing the waters for that kind of decision before making the official one in December.
 
Karen-W said:
Here is the conundrum the IOC faces - if they allow Russian athletes to compete as independent Olympians, if they refuse to allow the Russian national anthem to be played for any Russian gold medalists, etc, then Putin has said he will pull all Russians from the Olympics. So, the IOC has to decide if they are willing to call Putin's bluff.

Bach can want what Bach wants but I'm not sure he will get what he wants. @InsideTheGames is one of the leading Olympics news orgs and their sourcing is usually impeccable. The thought from their editor is that the Rio option is off the table due to RUSADA's continued non-compliance. we shall see what happens though it won't surprise me if Putin does yank the entire Russian squad from Pyeongchang.

As to whether or not it is fair to those athletes who compete in sports that don't have a history of doping... I am not too sussed over it. None of this would be a problem if there hadn't been a state-sponsored doping program in the first place. Whether that program only benefited athletes in certain sports or it benefited all Russians is irrelevant because I can guarantee you that if Putin & Co had thought there was a need or a drug cocktail that would have helped the figure skaters or curlers or whomever then those athletes likely would have been doped. Just because they weren't doesn't mean the will to have done so, if necessary or possible, didn't exist. And that is why this whole situation with Sochi and the sample-swapping, the elaborate lengths to which the Russian government went to ensure "clean" results, needs to be addressed with more than a mere slap on the wrist like they got for Rio. If truly clean athletes are deprived of the opportunity to compete then maybe, just maybe, they will be the ones who have the character, strength, and determination to force the change upon the Russian sports culture that is so very necessary.

Will Russian non-participation in Pyeongchang alter the competitive landscape, especially in the ladies figure skating field? Sure. Oh well. Their non-participation will not stop the Japanese, Canadian, Italian or American media from touting an Olympic medalist. And most of the public won't realize what an impact the loss of the Russian ladies on the field would mean. The only figure skating discipline where no Russians competing is likely to seep into the greater public's consciousness as a real loss would be pairs because that is the field that Russia has well and truly dominated for decades and the SLC scandal is still recent enough for most casual Olympics viewers to easily recall. And, even in recalling that, there could easily be a sentiment (At least amongst North American viewers) of "well, the Russians cheat to win, so no big loss."
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Rio showed what happens now. Olympic crowds boo Russians and and the press is all about how all Russians should be banned. How Russians are stealing medals from deserving people. There are lily king type athletes Bashing their Russian competition and people talking about how much better the games would be if no Russians were there. The Rio model was a total disaster. It was a badwill games! It wasn’t even effective. Putin still hasn’t admitted his state sponsored doping program. RusAF is still not compliant because their leaders haven’t been given permissions by putin to admit his doping program. Bach isn’t going to get his Rio model again. It’s not going to happen. Their plan is to have all Russians compete neutrally and ban them all from mentioning they’re from Russia like it was dona at IAAF 2017. But this is too much for an Olympics so Russia will boycott! Then Bach will just say “Russia is choosing not to compete. We want all athletes!”
 
kwanfan1818 said:
WADA was initiated by the IOC: it's not an outside or truly independent body that imposes itself on the IOC. I am far from a supporter of WADA, but it's not my monster: it's the IOC's. WADA's Code is referenced multiple times in the Olympic Charter as being non-negotiable, but, as we've seen many times, "non-negotiable" needs air quotes.

It seems that rather than backing WADA directly and banning Russia, the IOC may be trying to box Putin into refusing its terms, or at least pre-testing the waters for that kind of decision before making the official one in December.
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I agree. I just posted the same really. Putin said Russia will totally boycott if Russians have to pretend Russia doesn’t exist. Well that is IOC most likely plan!
 
I hope to see Russian skaters at the Olympics. This is just too much. They can not find out who cheated, so they ban everyone including those who don't cheat?
 
I hope this all works out in such a way that the Russian figure skaters can compete. If not, Worlds is going to be BIG and WILD.
 
Winnipeg said:
If there are no clear consequences when found doping, it will continue.
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The questions are whether:
  • WADA acts/rules based on proper scientific standards/evidence
  • WADA punishes/sanctions uniformly and fairly, based on explicit criteria and processes
  • WADA's standards are applied equally and fairly, both by themselves and by the IOC and member Federations
 
My question is why we are more concerned about the rights of the "clean" Russian athletes to compete rather than the rights of athletes from the rest world. Their right
  1. to know that they are competing on a level playing field and that the host Country is not running a doping scam
  2. to know when they win a competition they get their moment of glory on the Olympic podium at the games rather than 2 years later after the original "winner" is removed for doping.
Personally I don't care if the "clean" Russian athletes get to compete because I think that the rights of the athletes from other countries can only be guarantied if WADA rules are enforced on all countries and it seems Russia is and was unwilling to comply.
 
If people disagree about whether WADA has met the standards to even determine if Russian athletes were doping, then it's a matter of whether people agree that there are "clean" vs. "tainted" Russian athletes in the first place unless specific Russian athletes were found doping, like from all other countries.
 
kwanfan1818 said:
The questions are whether:
  • WADA acts/rules based on proper scientific standards/evidence
  • WADA punishes/sanctions uniformly and fairly, based on explicit criteria and processes
  • WADA's standards are applied equally and fairly, both by themselves and by the IOC and member Federations
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Well, for at least the first bullet we know that the answer is a resounding proven "NO". Meldonium case was completely mishandled, no research done on their part. So who knows how many more skeletons WADA has in their closet and what their true motivations are.
A new clean organization needs to be created.
 
Vash01 said:
I don't care about casual fans, I care about fairness. The best athletes must win, not Lesser ones who won only because the best were not allowed to compete for political reasons. It seems you are ok with unfairness as long as skaters from your country win. I want the best athlete to win, regardless of nationality.
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We should ALL care about fairness, and that is the primary cause of this entire fracas. But athletes (even if those not in figure skating) have been participating in a state-run doping ring including alteration of tests. RUSADA has had a chance to clean up their act and has willfully chosen not to do so. Do you not think that is due to "political reasons?" The denials of plausibility rank up there with Russia continuing to deny they have attempted to meddle in European and North American elections.

It certainly sounds like the IOC is very willing to let most Russian athletes compete neutrally. If that is what happens and then Putin decides to pull the entire contingent, then I find no reason to blame the IOC. They would be offering a way for the best athletes to win - and truly regardless of nationality.

If the Russian ladies are banned, I would not consider the winner a true winner. It would be robbery. I will say good bye to figure skating at that point. I have no desire to be a fan of a dirty political sport.
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Ice skating is a dirty political sport and has been for... well, probably forever. You think even if the entire Russian team competes (regardless of whether they come fully representing their country or as "neutral" members) that this is going to change? :rofl: And no, I absolutely, positively, 100%, do not think it is linked to only the Russian federation. You see political machinations happening even at low level club competitions here in the U.S. So you know it has to be happening at even more extremes at the highest levels, sadly.
 
Coquelicot14 said:
Well, for at least the first bullet we know that the answer is a resounding proven "NO". Meldonium case was completely mishandled, no research done on their part.
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I'm not sure no research was done, but rather that the research on which they relied was insufficient.

IMO, there should be transparency, ie, the research on which they rely is posted on their site, and that the completeness and methodology can be disputed.
 
JanetB said:
Personally I don't care if the "clean" Russian athletes get to compete because I think that the rights of the athletes from other countries can only be guarantied if WADA rules are enforced on all countries and it seems Russia is and was unwilling to comply.
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but why clean athletes of the rest of the world matter more than clean russian athletes? if the IOC is not capable of detecting and punishing only individuals who commit doping, then maybe the stupid Olympics should not even exist, because in any case there is no justice.
 
peibeck said:
We should ALL care about fairness, and that is the primary cause of this entire fracas. But athletes (even if those not in figure skating) have been participating in a state-run doping ring including alteration of tests. RUSADA has had a chance to clean up their act and has willfully chosen not to do so. Do you not think that is due to "political reasons?" The denials of plausibility rank up there with Russia continuing to deny they have attempted to meddle in European and North American elections.

It certainly sounds like the IOC is very willing to let most Russian athletes compete neutrally. If that is what happens and then Putin decides to pull the entire contingent, then I find no reason to blame the IOC. They would be offering a way for the best athletes to win - and truly regardless of nationality.



Ice skating is a dirty political sport and has been for... well, probably forever. You think even if the entire Russian team competes (regardless of whether they come fully representing their country or as "neutral" members) that this is going to change? :rofl: And no, I absolutely, positively, 100%, do not think it is linked to only the Russian federation. You see political machinations happening even at low level club competitions here in the U.S. So you know it has to be happening at even more extremes at the highest levels, sadly.
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Very good post. I would be oh so surprised if Putin would allow "his" athletes to compete neutrally. He gains nothing from that. Russian athletes, into whom Russia has paid lots of money, will not be competing for their country. I don't think it is going to happen. If he thinks he has been "wronged" then why let the athletes compete?
 
Coquelicot14 said:
Well, for at least the first bullet we know that the answer is a resounding proven "NO". Meldonium case was completely mishandled, no research done on their part. So who knows how many more skeletons WADA has in their closet and what their true motivations are.
A new clean organization needs to be created.
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The way the whole Meldonium case was handled was suspect. It was targeted.

kwanfan1818 said:
I'm not sure no research was done, but rather that the research on which they relied was insufficient.

IMO, there should be transparency, ie, the research on which they rely is posted on their site, and that the completeness and methodology can be disputed.
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I am afraid the research was intentionally skewed with a certain objective and it's the wrong way to do research.
 
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chapis said:
but why clean athletes of the rest of the world matter more than clean russian athletes? if the IOC is not capable of detecting and punishing only individuals who commit doping, then maybe the stupid Olympics should not even exist, because in any case there is no justice.
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  1. The Russian government will not stop their interference unless they are forced to.
  2. Non-Russian Athletes are the ones most harmed by RUSADA scandal so to me they are the more important.
  3. How many of the clean Russian athletes knew about what was happening at RUSADA and didn't say anything.
 
JanetB said:
  1. The Russian government will not stop their interference unless they are forced to.
  2. Non-Russian Athletes are the ones most harmed by RUSADA scandal so to me they are the more important.
  3. How many of the clean Russian athletes knew about what was happening at RUSADA and didn't say anything.
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What athletes? Evgenia? Polina? Elena?. I am pretty sure that Evgenia is all day training then she go directly to her home to watch Yuri on ice or Sailor moon, I pretty much doubt she knows something about it.
 
JanetB said:
  1. The Russian government will not stop their interference unless they are forced to.
  2. Non-Russian Athletes are the ones most harmed by RUSADA scandal so to me they are the more important.
  3. How many of the clean Russian athletes knew about what was happening at RUSADA and didn't say anything.
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1. This a claim, not proven beyond a reasonable doubt. The accuser has a bad track record, see my previous posts.
2. What about Russian athletes that were wrongly accused by WADA? They aren't people?
3. How would you prove it? Or are you doing a blanket statement for the whole nationality. Hmm... sounds reminiscent of some time in history....
 
Tahuu said:
According to Christine Brennan's article today, RUSADA has not tested or tested only once many top winter athletes this year. So I went and checked USADA's test history on US figure skaters and here's the link https://www.usada.org/testing/results/athlete-test-history/. Just choose from the pull-down menu for 2017 and figure skating and hit "Search." You'll see all the skaters' test history for this year, ex. Max was tested 2x, Jason 4x, Nathan 4x, Josh 1x, Adam 1x, Vincent 2x, etc. An interesting observation and thread drift: Does the testing frequency suggest USOC puts much more stock on Jason and Nathan for their potential Olympic selection?
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I wonder why Maia Shibutani was tested 6 times in 2017, more than any other athlete.

Anyway, I think there can be some kind of compromise that doesn’t require a blanket ban but also gets the message across. People are creative and there’s a lot of options we can all come up with that aren’t the two extremes of banning or allowing things to continue as normal. IMO, the fairest outcome would be to have athletes tested (in a procedure and with the frequency that is agreeable to almost everyone) and the clean ones will be able to participate.
 
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chapis said:
What athletes? Evgenia? Polina? Elena?. I am pretty sure that Evgenia is all day training then she go directly to her home to watch Yuri on ice or Sailor moon, I pretty much doubt she knows something about it.
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I smelled fish when Russian coaches had to let go all foreign skaters at their training rinks during the 2014 Olympic season. Was it a state order?
 
@lala Russia does not release this data. It would be nice if Russia (or all countries) was more transparent with this data. Even USADA does not release the results for each athletes' tests. USADA also does not specify why some athletes are listed in red and others are listed in blue. It would be interesting to know since there's no clear pattern. Does red mean something was found in the tests, that the athletes are on a list to be tested more frequently due to their success, that they have medical exemptions, or something as innocent of them having a new test within the last update period?

@VIETgrlTerifa Maybe she just got unlucky? If the pattern of testing overperforming athletes reflects an actual policy, I'd bet Mirai's 5 tests is due to her 3A. It seems in other sports (ie. gymnastics having the most for Simone Biles, Ali Raisman, and Gabby Douglas; basketball having the most for Kevin Durant, LeBron James, Kyrie Irving, Klay Thompson, and Russell Westbrook), those that get tested most are those that are the most successful.

Based on track and field it seems the ones tested most frequently are those who had a history of doping - Justin Gatlin in particular. Somehow I doubt that's what's going on in skating, though.
 
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