I, Tonya

[Aerobicidal]

I'm super excited to see I, Tonya and I don't care whether the Lutzes are authentic or not! I want funny and trashy.

I'm also excited about The Tonya Tapes after reading this lovely web page about its author.

"An author by trade, Lynda Prouse has established a successful career as a scribe for many of the world's most graceful figure skaters. From Isabelle Brasseur and Lloyd Eisler to Josee Chouinard , Lynda has seen numerous triple axels and taken note of the exciting fashions worn by these skaters both on and off the ice. Also as a former model, Lynda has acquired a breadth of knowledge on fashion trends."

Eat your heart out, Dave Rent-to-Own!

 

[BittyBug]

I don't care whether the Lutzes are authentic or not!

 

[Erin]

So because I really don't feel like working, I went through Tonya's skates on Youtube for the Kiss & Cry to figure out the Dody/Diane timeline and as far as I can tell, her last competition with Diane was 1989 US Nationals and then she showed up with Dody for 1989 Skate America and was with Dody at all competitions until the 1992 Olympics. Then went back to Diane for 1992 Worlds and was with her at all competitions thereafter. Some sources say Dody was her coach from 1988-92, but it's clearly Diane with her at 1989 Nationals, so that's an error. And unless she did flip-flopping in between competitions (like possibly the fall of 1991 @meggonzo mentioned or over the summer), it was less than I thought. She was also with Dody for longer than I thought.

Now the real challenge - figuring out many times Tonya and Jeff split up and got back together. That's another one I've never got 100% straight especially since one of their reconciliations was post-divorce. Luckily, this article has a helpful timeline about halfway through (bearing in mind that the article has the error I noted about when Dody coached her, so there could be other minor errors in this too):
http://www.nytimes.com/1994/02/07/s...-cool-as-ice-but-troubled.html?pagewanted=all

For anyone who doesn't want to read the article, in short:
March 1990 - Married
(Not in the article, but the fluff piece in this Olympic Festival video is an ironic companion when you consider what is coming next: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivAE6r_L7kw)
Fall 1990 - separated briefly then reconciled
June 1991 - Harding filed for divorce (and briefly got engaged to someone else, which I didn't remember)
Fall 1991 - Breaks off engagement with other guy, reconciles with Jeff again, divorce doesn't happen
Not in the article, but somewhere in 1992 she started going by Harding-Gillooly instead of just Harding
March and July 1993 both have incidents of the police coming to their house to break up fights
August 28, 1993 - officially divorced and has a restraining order against Jeff
Sept 7, 1993, i.e. 10 days later - asks for restraining order lifted because they must have reconciled again. Can't make this shit up

 

[Tinami Amori]

The more i look at the trailers, the more i think that Margot Robbie is too pretty to play Tonya, even in make up, and her body parts can never be artificially changed to reflect Tonya's short legs and stocky features. Even before the wack, Tonya was not a site for soar eyes, not her face, not her body.
https://ewedit.files.wordpress.com/2017/11/000267574hr.jpg?w=2700&h=1800
https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-medi...er,h_900,q_80,w_1600/eddbmvbsoxax7ztmf0vq.jpg

 

[skatepixie]

My post was intended to agree with your statement "I call BS on this".

And I certainly wouldn't expect a winery menu to include beer.

Which reminds me of how much I've been looking forward to revisiting the Napa valley, and taking the wine train this time. But I don't know how much of the valley is left, after the recent wildfire disaster.

The worse of the damage was in Sonoma county, not in the path of the Wine Train. Should be fine. The VAST majority of the Napa Valley is fine.

 

[skatepixie]

I think she's got Janny and Janney mixed up.



"Never abusive.... just one swat."



There was that documentary when Tonya was an upcoming skater that had a heartbreaking telephone conversation between daughter and mother.

I never saw the phone convo -- what was it about?

As for one swat -- wouldn't be considered abusive in most jurisdictions, especially not then, especially if no injury occurred (bruises, etc).

 

[overedge]

As for one swat -- wouldn't be considered abusive in most jurisdictions, especially not then, especially if no injury occurred (bruises, etc).

You're wrong.

 

[skatepixie]

You're wrong.

If it was with her own hand, it's still legal in all US states. With a brush, not sure -- gets a little fuzzier around the edges -- and that's NOW. But we're talking about what? 1976? 1977?

Now, do some people view it as abusive? Yes.

But from a legal standpoint, the two statements aren't contradictory.

I do feel like I need to give her some form of "benefit of the doubt" because our main source for her being some kind of abusive, horrible person is Tonya -- who could benefit quite a bit in the court of public opinion for being a "victim." Might be true, might not be true, but the evidence isn't the most solid thing.

 

[Tinami Amori]

I never saw the phone convo -- what was it about?

As for one swat -- wouldn't be considered abusive in most jurisdictions, especially not then, especially if no injury occurred (bruises, etc).

Tonya said (in her Oprah interview) that it was more than one swat, mother was drinking, and being abusive both mentally and physically, to a point where adults at the rink told Mother they will call Child Protection authorities.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eE_pIec7gSQ

here is the "wackers' story" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rh_4iGxKdP0

 

[Erin]

I never saw the phone convo -- what was it about?

This is also discussed in the NYT article I linked in another post. The relevant part:

Harding is shown on the night she placed sixth in her first national senior competition. She appears all proud and happy until she telephoned her mother, who expressed the feeling her daughter should have finished higher.

In the video, which was recently shown on "60 Minutes," Rawlinson asks Harding about the conversation, and Harding replies: "She goes: 'So I heard you missed your combination. You know, you didn't get any credit for that at all.' And I said, 'Mom.' She goes, 'You did terrible, you know that?' She said, 'You sucked.' And I said, 'Mom, I got half a credit for it.' And she goes, 'So, the rest of the program sucked, also.' "

There is another similarly bad conversation discussed later in the article after she finished second at the 1991 Worlds where the fiancé she had during one of the splits with Jeff heard her mom make comments such as her "routine looked awful" "Your hair looked terrible" and "Have you gained weight?"

 

[VGThuy]

If it was with her own hand, it's still legal in all US states. With a brush, not sure -- gets a little fuzzier around the edges -- and that's NOW. But we're talking about what? 1976? 1977?

Now, do some people view it as abusive? Yes.

But from a legal standpoint, the two statements aren't contradictory.

I do feel like I need to give her some form of "benefit of the doubt" because our main source for her being some kind of abusive, horrible person is Tonya -- who could benefit quite a bit in the court of public opinion for being a "victim." Might be true, might not be true, but the evidence isn't the most solid thing.

Of course we really do not know everything that happened in the home, however, the LaVonna beating Tonya with a hairbrush has not only been stated by Tonya, but by Diane Rawlinson, who also said Tonya used to have a sponsor when she was younger who ended up cutting the funding because he observed LaVonna's treatment of Tonya.

Then there's Sandra Luckow, who did the 1986 student documentary on Tonya, who observed another incident of Tonya getting attacked by LaVonna in the bathroom when she was a young skater. She said she wanted to call CPS (she had no idea how she knew about CPS at that age) but was told by adults they couldn't report it because then Tonya would be taken away and her skating career would be over.

A lot of adults turned the other way (but probably tried to deal with it in a more indirect, some times supportive of Tonya without actually doing the best thing for her and taking her out of the situation way) because they thought Tonya's future and path out of poverty was tied to her skating. Plus, maybe some parents felt that it may have been rougher than how they would treat their own children, but it wasn't extraordinary behavior or that they were small isolated incidents and Tonya seemed ok in the end. I'd like to think that society has learned more about child abuse and feel a bigger duty to report it these days, but I'm skeptical.

There are probably a lot more witnesses who observed verbal/emotional abuse since LaVonna would have probably been more public with that. She even admitted in the 1986 student film to behaving like that because she felt it was a motivator for Tonya.

 

[skatepixie]

Tonya said (in her Oprah interview) that it was more than one swat, mother was drinking, and being abusive both mentally and physically, to a point where adults at the rink told Mother they will call Child Protection authorities.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eE_pIec7gSQ

here is the "wackers' story" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rh_4iGxKdP0

The mother admitted to one swat and said she wasn't an abusive mother --- other posters seemed to thinking that she couldn't describe herself as "not abusive" and also admit to having smacked Tonya once.

Now, if what TONYA says is true, then yes, the mother was abusive. But I can't take Tonya at face value...

It's also possible that the truth is somewhere in between "once" (Tonya's mom's side) and "once every day" (Tonya's side).

 

[skatepixie]

Of course we really do not know everything that happened in the home, however, the LaVonna beating Tonya with a hairbrush has not only been stated by Tonya, but by Diane Rawlinson, who also said Tonya used to have a sponsor when she was younger who ended up cutting the funding because he observed LaVonna's treatment of Tonya.

Then there's Sandra Luckow, who did the 1986 student documentary on Tonya, who observed another incident of Tonya getting attacked by LaVonna in the bathroom when she was a young skater. She said she wanted to call CPS (she had no idea how she knew about CPS at that age) but was told by adults they couldn't report it because then Tonya would be taken away and her skating career would be over.

A lot of adults turned the other way (but probably tried to deal with it in a more indirect, some times supportive of Tonya without actually doing the best thing for her and taking her out of the situation way) because they thought Tonya's future and path out of poverty was tied to her skating. Plus, maybe some parents felt that it may have been rougher than how they would treat their own children, but it wasn't extraordinary behavior or that they were small isolated incidents and Tonya seemed ok in the end. I'd like to think that society has learned more about child abuse and feel a bigger duty to report it these days, but I'm skeptical.

There are probably a lot more witnesses who observed verbal/emotional abuse since LaVonna would have probably been more public with that. She even admitted in the 1986 student film to behaving like that because she felt it was a motivator for Tonya.

Knowing what I know about the foster system in my state and what goes on -- I don't think I could bring myself to report anything other than sexual abuse or situations where a child's life was in danger. Because otherwise, chances are that the might face something even worse in a foster home.

Especially considering the fact that the documentary was about a teenage Tonya, she may well have been better off where she was -- sad as that might be.

Been there, done that -- had to decide if I should report a friend's parents on a few occasions. When it was sexual abuse, I reported it. (And nothing was done, because it was a wealthy/powerful family and there was a lack of physical evidence.) When it was wacking with a hairbrush and heavy emotional/verbal abuse, I didn't, at the request of my friend. And, looking back, we're both glad I didn't call. Who knows what would have happened to her if I had. As it is, she was able to finish school, leave, go to college and graduate school, and is very successful in her career. The statistics for former foster kids are abysmal, and my friend was old enough to make her own choice about it -- and she wasn't in mortal danger at any time.

 

[VGThuy]

I understand that, and you're right, the foster system and the way children are treated once they are taken from the home and become the responsibility of the state can result in real trauma as well. Some times even death as we're finding out about that for-profit foster care company.

As someone who grew up in a Vietnamese-American community, I've known friends who were seriously abused (either physically or otherwise) by their parents and me brushing it away as their parents being stricter or more "old country" than mine were and I thought the best course of action was just to be there as a sounding board and some times a place to stay. I don't know if I would have done anything differently now either just because reporting someone's parents and thus getting involved is serious and will really affect their lives. Now, if their lives were in danger and I know about it, I like to think I would, but the decision to interject yourself into a situation like that is a very difficult choice to make and I would have to be "sure" that their lives were in imminent danger. I would probably be a lot more sure that I'd report if the child was younger.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Tonya's career path seems to be riddled with so many unconscious choices and outside distractions, it makes me sad to think she could have been one of the best skaters ever.

I need to watch her free program from Skate America in 1991 again just to cheer myself up.

 

[skatepixie]

Tonya's career path seems to be riddled with so many unconscious choices and outside distractions, it makes me sad to think she could have been one of the best skaters ever.

I need to watch her free program from Skate America in 1991 again just to cheer myself up.

I don't think there's any alternate course of events where she would have developed any form of musicality, though.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I don't think there's any alternate course of events where she would have developed any form of musicality, though.

I may need to chase you with my whacking stick for that remark!

 

[Vagabond]

I never saw the phone convo -- what was it about?

You can find a clip with the conversation and an extract from an interview with Diane Rawlinson mentioning other incidents of abuse here: https://www.facebook.com/tonyamovie/

Google is your friend.

 

[Inessence]

I believe Tonya had both Diane and Dody with her at one point, maybe 88-89(?) Dody was working with her on figures and endurance, and probably to give Diane a break. According to Tonya's book, Gillooly liked Diane but couldn't stand Dody.

 

[Erin]

Tonya could be musical at times when given the right choreography. It was never going to be a strength, but it wasn't always a glaring weakness. I thought the programs that were posted from 1987 NHK a few pages back showed her to be musical.

If you can get past the bad hair, her 1989 SP isn't bad until the lasso part at the beginning of the footwork sequence and the LP is quite nice. Posture would be my biggest complaint on the presentation side in these programs (which had actually deteriorated quite a bit since the 1987 vids):
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XoM0Ith-j_Q
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sFdoiXH3cgc

OTOH, this SP from 1990 has horrendous choreography and does show off her weakness in musicality:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bKBR-JeVB4Q

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Tonya could be musical at times when given the right choreography. It was never going to be a strength, but it wasn't always a glaring weakness. I thought the programs that were posted from 1987 NHK a few pages back showed her to be musical.

If you can get past the bad hair, her 1989 SP isn't bad until the lasso part at the beginning of the footwork sequence and the LP is quite nice. Posture would be my biggest complaint on the presentation side in these programs (which had actually deteriorated quite a bit since the 1987 vids):
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XoM0Ith-j_Q
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sFdoiXH3cgc

OTOH, this SP from 1990 has horrendous choreography and does show off her weakness in musicality:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bKBR-JeVB4Q

One thing weighing heavily against Tonya, and I am guessing from the trailer the film addresses this, is that the USFSA shunned ladies who did not fit the ice princess ideal. It is easy to see why Kerrigan was the source of her frustration.

If nothing else, Harding at least seemed to enjoy greater acceptance on an international level than at home.

 

[VGThuy]

I don’t know Tonya’s international and domestic success seem pretty even. I think Tonya’s skating was more complete before she met Jeff and became all about that 3A. I think Tonya regressed a bit after 1991 SA, and 1993 Nationals showed how rough her skating could be when she wasn’t in her best competitive shape (I don’t mean she wasn’t thin enough, I mean she was clearly undertrained).

I don’t doubt that there were some in the USFS who rather have someone other than Tonya represent them, but I also think she had some real supporters who felt burnt by her by 1994 and saw her refusal to improve her skating or to be more consistent in her training as someone who was unreliable. I know Christine Brennan of all people has said she rolls her eyes when people say the USFS didn’t support her.

 

[meggonzo]

OTOH, this SP from 1990 has horrendous choreography and does show off her weakness in musicality:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bKBR-JeVB4Q

She had the same SP in 1991 and it's one of my favorites ever.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsPS1bhAj6c&t=191s

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I don’t know Tonya’s international and domestic success seem pretty even. I think Tonya’s skating was more complete before she met Jeff and became all about that 3A. I think Tonya regressed a bit after 1991 SA, and 1993 Nationals showed how rough her skating could be when she wasn’t in her best competitive shape (I don’t mean she wasn’t thin enough, I mean she was clearly undertrained).

I remember reading that the dry Arizona air really played havoc with Harding's asthma at the 1993 National Championships. I believe she had also lost 15 pounds since Skate Canada '92, which must have zapped her energy.

These factors, combined with her on - again / off - again alleged smoking habit, can't have helped.

 

[VGThuy]

I remember reading that the dry Arizona air really played havoc with Harding's asthma at the 1993 National Championships. I believe she had also lost 15 pounds since Skate Canada '92, which must have zapped her energy.

These factors, combined with her on - again / off - again alleged smoking habit, can't have helped.

I had no idea. I think you’re right about that because I do think 1993 Nationals was the worst I’ve ever seen her and she didn’t look like herself out on the ice at all. There was a serious lack of energy and fight there.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I had no idea. I think you’re right about that because I do think 1993 Nationals was the worst I’ve ever seen her and she didn’t look like herself out on the ice at all. There was a serious lack of energy and fight there.

She can't have been the only one affected by the Arizona air, either. All of the top ladies skated really badly, except for Michelle Kwan.

 

[Erin]

She had the same SP in 1991 and it's one of my favorites ever.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsPS1bhAj6c&t=191s

You know what's funny is I've seen and liked that 1991 program before. I don't know how I didn't recognize the 1990 program as the same one. So I watched them back to back and there are some (relatively minor) choreographic differences between the two (eg the choo-choo arms in the spiral sequence from the 1990 video is gone). Aside from that, the two other differences are the costume (frilly pink in 1990 does not work with this music) and Tonya performing it with much more confidence and conviction in 1991. Amazing what a difference a few subtle things can make.

 

[Barbara Manatee]

One thing weighing heavily against Tonya, and I am guessing from the trailer the film addresses this, is that the USFSA shunned ladies who did not fit the ice princess ideal. It is easy to see why Kerrigan was the source of her frustration.

That's ironic though because Nancy wasn't comfortable in that role herself, and it turned people against her, too. Even now a lot of comments on the trailer are people saying they never liked Nancy because she was a snooty, stuck-up princess. Although I haven't seen any actual victim blaming, there's more than enough 'she didn't deserve to be whacked, but...' to make me cheesed off on her behalf.

 

[VGThuy]

That's ironic though because Nancy wasn't comfortable in that role herself, and it turned people against her, too. Even now a lot of comments on the trailer are people saying they never liked Nancy because she was a snooty, stuck-up princess. Although I haven't seen any actual victim blaming, there's more than enough 'she didn't deserve to be whacked, but...' to make me cheesed off on her behalf.

This is actually what angers me more than anything.

 

[Inessence]

Both Nancy and Tonya got a raw deal in the media.