Pairs Discussion Thread 2017-18--"Two Skating as One"

[angi]

D&R have been one of if not my fav pairs team recently but I feel that was a gift... I couldn't believe when I saw the tech score in the corner when they finished... and Im like.."Really? highest of the competition for side by side doubles?"
!

While I agree they should have been third, the technical score that was in the corner of the screen is not what they got in the end, after the review they dropped 3-4 points in TES.

 

[aftershocks]

While I agree they should have been third, the technical score that was in the corner of the screen is not what they got in the end, after the review they dropped 3-4 points in TES.

Yeah, I was confused by that when I looked at the ISU results page and saw that D/R were barely ahead of J/C. Then when I watched D/R's sp again to try and appreciate the positives, I wondered why I was seeing 77+ with D/R landing just percentage points behind S/M. I thought, why did I think they were closer to J/C? I mean when was it announced that a review had been undertaken? Never? Geesh. It makes the scoring look even more suspicious that a further review happened after the kiss 'n cry reveal.

Anyway, S/M's score was too high as well. I think J/C deserved at least a point higher, with D/R slightly behind them, as I said earlier. And S/M only about 75+ or 76 even realistically, because S/M have flaws that haven't been fully worked out.

Dave Lease is certifiable, but then he does often say some things that make sense. For example, it's a crime that Tarasova/Morosov have such great skating skills but lack connection on the ice and usually have terrible programs. Their Candyman music and fp really really needs to disappear into candy land and get lost forever. On TSL, Dave and Jonathan were fairly accurate in their assessment of that horrendous fp. The elements are sublime, but why must we be subjected to such a mess of choreo and music selection? The judges seriously need to take off points for T/M's composition and interpretation marks especially. Why do they just keep on being handed gift points for terrible programs?

If S/M could get it together and skate clean, and if Bruno could master German, they might be able to go to the Olympics and really make a strong effort to win OGM. I don't care much for Sui/Han's programs this year. They might be better off bringing back their last year's programs which they didn't use much, and perhaps make a stronger case for Olympic dominance in pairs. Peng/Jin appear to need more time for growth. I'm really not enamored of watching Yu/Zhang. Nice tricks when they are on, but no connection at all, and no comfort level. The disconnect hampers them as a pair.

Interestingly, at the tail end of his RC review, Dave waxed nostalgic about some former pairs programs by U.S. teams worth watching again. I agree with his suggestions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59A5vL1WvDQ Oh my, I remember -- Tiffany was so very lovely; why didn't something happen for her at the very least? She was indeed special! 1998 Stieglers' Romeo & Juliet

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvp96fqlRTk What a boss program. I have never forgotten this program choreographed by Peter Oppegard for Stiegler/Zimmerman 1997 U.S. Nats The Sorcerer's Apprentice

Now that program is something that Tarasova/Morosov should be thinking more along the lines of, no?! I mean seriously get creative and innovative. Tell a story that helps Evgenia and Vlad to connect better. Why is it so hard for them to be more creative and judicious in their choice of music and choreo? With all the wonderful choreographers out here today, why are they so stuck in such a bad rut?

Maybe John Z and/or Peter O should think about bringing this program back for an up-and-coming U.S. pair team! For Calalang/Sidhu or Deardorff/Settlage. Or perhaps even for Denney/Frazier. Why not?

 

[Quadjump]

The "Bruno is not on Aljona´s level" seems to be older than their partnership.

I just cannot believe how much Bruno improved over the last two years. In the beginning of their partnership he looked slow and clumpsy in some movements and they have already getting 9´s in skating skills. That was definitly too much! But I would not really discuss this point after yesterday´s SP. Bruno really performed yesterday! The speed and choregraphy was on one level. But nobody can reach Aljona´s level of Interpretation and Performance. Robin has never tried. Robin let so much room for Aljona to shine bright.

A friend of mine, who has never watched figure skating, saw Aljona for her first time last year and just before they began to skate she said: "She has such charisma around her. I cannot take my eyes off her." Poor Bruno, I thought.

Almost every pair is not equal in their skills except of Sui/Han. And this is the Chineses greatest advantage.

 

[aftershocks]

^^ Hmmm @Quadjump, there have been plenty of pairs teams with equal skill level who have complemented each other beautifully: The Protopopovs; Babilonia/Gardner; Sale/Pelletier; Gordeeva/Grinkov; Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze; Tarasova/Morosov; Shen/Zhao; Pang/Tong, etc. To be quite honest, Robin complemented Aliona just fine. They were a team in every sense of the word. The constant refrain that Aliona was better than Robin seems to be older than their former partnership. Ain't true either. Even Aliona seems to have forgotten why she stuck with Robin and Ingo for so long. It worked, despite all the furor around them and the constant attempts to pull them apart.

 

[firstflight]

Looking at the protocols, the GOE for James/Cipres' side-by-side spin are all over the place. Are some of the judges confused by the choreography and thinking that Morgan is falling down at the end of the spin?
And, whoah, his pants are tight especially noticeable in the Kiss and Cry.

 

[angi]

Looking at the protocols, the GOE for James/Cipres' side-by-side spin are all over the place. Are some of the judges confused by the choreography and thinking that Morgan is falling down at the end of the spin?

I think they might be because I know that it's choreographed and it still makes me pause and wonder

 

[firstflight]

I think they might be because I know that it's choreographed and it still makes me pause and wonder

Yeah, that could have been a couple of points. So I think they need to change it. Maybe a glide before the spinning fall?

 

[aftershocks]

Looking at the protocols, the GOE for James/Cipres' side-by-side spin are all over the place.

The protocols are interesting to look at along with the judges' national identity. It's a mistake to believe everything you see in the protocols. But the average of what the judges decide stands. As far as that particular spin, I guess someone should explain to the judges that Morgan's slide out of the spin is a choreographic variation. It can be confusing at first, but then it should become obvious to judges who have good sense that it's part of the choreography!

J/C skated first in the final group and it was obvious that the judges were really trying to manage their scores in order to keep J/C within a reasonably fair range that would allow flexibility for the judges having leeway to manage scores for whatever the rest of the skaters did. Z/E clearly showed their lack of experience, lack of spark and connection, and lack of emotional intensity. Plus they made technical errors, so the judges couldn't keep them too close to J/C, especially not after how well J/C skated.

And then D/R managed to bring the house down with a fp reminiscent of their magical performance at 2016 Worlds. Eric did have that slight touchdown on the sbs 3-lutz, but Meagan made adjustments after the sp and was in the zone. It was nice to see them skate so well. They surely didn't want to come away from SC without top billing.

At the moment, J/C seem to be a team having fun, training hard, and on the rise, regardless of the judges' micromanagement of their scores. Vanessa and Morgan have worked so hard and been through so much together to get to where they are now. I hope they continue to build and keep going forward with confidence. They were the only team to skate fairly clean with no major mistakes in either program at SC. And their programs are wonderful in back-to-back seasons. They have my respect and admiration. One could argue that J/C should have been first or second in the sp, and definitely they should have pulled out a silver medal overall in the final results. But that's figure skating. And this is just the start of the season, so J/C have something to build upon.

I'm sure Meagan and Eric are breathing a huge sigh of relief for this win.

 

[RoseRed]

Yeah, I was confused by that when I looked at the ISU results page and saw that D/R were barely ahead of J/C. Then when I watched D/R's sp again to try and appreciate the positives, I wondered why I was seeing 77+ with D/R landing just percentage points behind S/M. I thought, why did I think they were closer to J/C? I mean when was it announced that a review had been undertaken? Never? Geesh. It makes the scoring look even more suspicious that a further review happened after the kiss 'n cry reveal.

The protocols are interesting to look at along with the judges' national identity. It's a mistake to believe everything you see in the protocols. But the average of what the judges decide stands (unless they review and make changes after the kiss 'n cry reveal because they realize they made a huge mistake trying to hold up a team).

I'm very confused. Angi's post was talking about the TES dropping from what was shown as the skate ended right? That's pretty normal if they review the rotation on a jump or the tech panel changes a level or something. You keep saying after the KnC reveal, but the score announced for D/R in the KnC was 73.53, same as what's on the protocol and the results page. I don't get why you're implying something shady happened.

 

[aftershocks]

^^ Okay @RoseRed, I checked again. Thanks for pointing that out. It must have been S/M's 77.34 score that was shown as the score to beat, which is often confusing and looks like the score for current skater(s). And then reading @angi's post I was confused thinking she meant D/R's score was changed after the fact. I see now @angi was referencing the tech score we see in the left hand corner during the skate that dropped to 73.43 after deductions. So I stand corrected. There was no further review after the fact. I'll edit my previous post, but I can't correct comments in my initial post.

Often, I try not to look at the tech score in the left hand corner during performances, because it can be distracting and nerve-wracking. I really get tired of the way the ISU tries to make the numbers seem suspenseful. It's completely annoying and often confusing the way they put up the leading score during the kiss 'n cry, and then post current skater(s) score and the ranking. And then a huge pause in order to try and drag things out to create faux suspense before showing where the current skater ranks overall. This particularly happens when the scores are close and they want to drag out the drama, and the agony for the skaters in the kiss 'n cry who are uncertain where they stand with the numbers flashing.

That scenario happened with Nathan at Rostelecom Cup, when they showed him coming in second in the fp, and then kept showing him in 2nd until they slowly revealed he had really won overall. It's frankly annoying the way the sport attempts to make the numbers seem exciting, with the 'season's best score' nonsense and playing around with ranking in sp and fp. They should work on stopping the dragging out of minutes in the kiss 'n cry instead of reducing length of programs.

 

[Sylvia]

Cross-posting from the OES news thread in GSD...

Anna Duskova has to undergo knee ligament surgery and they will skip Europeans and hope to be ready for the Olympics: http://www.czechskating.org/clanek/738/grand-prix-2017

Google translation: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=cs&tl=en&u=http://www.czechskating.org/clanek/738/grand-prix-2017

Update 1.11.2017:

Anna Dušková and Martin Bidař have to postpone their premiere in Grand Prix competitions for the next season. Anna wounded in warm-up before training and unfortunately the injury was more serious than just a rash. Anna Dušková will have to undergo a broken knee ligament surgery and we have to cancel our participation in Grand Prix competitions. There is no start to the January European Championship. But coach Horkl and the couple will try to co-operate with physicians and physiotherapists so they can introduce themselves at the Winter Olympics in Pjongchang (Korea).

We would also like to thank the Czech Olympic Committee thanks to the Health Insurance Program of the Czech Republic for a quick solution to the situation and, thanks to a series of examinations and an early term of the operation, it is possible to prevent an even greater training and competitive breakdown of the couple.

We hold our hands for surgery and subsequent rehabilitation to take place without any problems, and Anna and Martin can fulfill their Olympic dream!

Anna's FB message mentions "surgery on Monday": https://www.facebook.com/duskovabid...11081362684/487196338317489/?type=3&source=54

Fingers crossed for Anna that she and Martin will be able to compete in PyeongChang!

 

[barbarafan]

Cross-posting from the OES news thread in GSD...

Anna Duskova has to undergo knee ligament surgery and they will skip Europeans and hope to be ready for the Olympics: http://www.czechskating.org/clanek/738/grand-prix-2017

Google translation: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=cs&tl=en&u=http://www.czechskating.org/clanek/738/grand-prix-2017

Update 1.11.2017:

Anna Dušková and Martin Bidař have to postpone their premiere in Grand Prix competitions for the next season. Anna wounded in warm-up before training and unfortunately the injury was more serious than just a rash. Anna Dušková will have to undergo a broken knee ligament surgery and we have to cancel our participation in Grand Prix competitions. There is no start to the January European Championship. But coach Horkl and the couple will try to co-operate with physicians and physiotherapists so they can introduce themselves at the Winter Olympics in Pjongchang (Korea).

We would also like to thank the Czech Olympic Committee thanks to the Health Insurance Program of the Czech Republic for a quick solution to the situation and, thanks to a series of examinations and an early term of the operation, it is possible to prevent an even greater training and competitive breakdown of the couple.

We hold our hands for surgery and subsequent rehabilitation to take place without any problems, and Anna and Martin can fulfill their Olympic dream!

Anna's FB message: https://www.facebook.com/duskovabid...11081362684/487196338317489/?type=3&source=54

Fingers crossed for Anna that she and Martin will be able to compete in PyeongChang!

That is so sad. I really like this team. ACL's are tricky. Fingers crossed surgery is smooth and recovery quick.

 

[MAXSwagg]

The "Bruno is not on Aljona´s level" seems to be older than their partnership.

I just cannot believe how much Bruno improved over the last two years. In the beginning of their partnership he looked slow and clumpsy in some movements and they have already getting 9´s in skating skills. That was definitly too much! But I would not really discuss this point after yesterday´s SP. Bruno really performed yesterday! The speed and choregraphy was on one level. But nobody can reach Aljona´s level of Interpretation and Performance. Robin has never tried. Robin let so much room for Aljona to shine bright.

A friend of mine, who has never watched figure skating, saw Aljona for her first time last year and just before they began to skate she said: "She has such charisma around her. I cannot take my eyes off her." Poor Bruno, I thought.

Almost every pair is not equal in their skills except of Sui/Han. And this is the Chineses greatest advantage.

Really, Stolbova and Klimov arguably have the best skating skills and best overall pair quality, with Sui and Han and Tarasova and Morozov close behind.

 

[yurokis40]

I want Duhamel and Radford to win an Olympic medal if they skate well at the Olympics, I know they get a beating for their artistry and Meagan not being the balletic type , but they were the pair responsible for enhancing the technical level in the last quad.

 

[aftershocks]

Cross-posting some comments from U.S. pairs thread:
I'm serious about hoping to see someone bring back or be inspired by Peter Oppegard's The Sorcerer's Apprentice program for a pair team. Probably Oppegard's permission would be needed to take liberally from the original choreo. It might be cool to see John Z and John Kerr adapt it for a team. Again, the choreo and concept might look good on U.S. teams such as Cain/LeDuc, K/O, Dear/Settl, Diger/Neu, and maybe Cala/Sid. And internationally: Sav/Mas or James/Cipres perhaps. I'm quite certain if the Russian team Tar/Mor had a free program of this nature, they would likely deserve their humongous overscores on composition and interpretation.

The crap programs T/M have been putting out for far too long do them absolutely no justice. I would hate to see T/M on the Olympic podium at all with that horrid dumbed-down Candyman shock-trocity. Surely there's a way to update The Sorcerer's Apprentice under IJS/COP.

Interestingly, there's a move that Stieg/Zim do @2:19 in this program that's ahead of it's time -- shades of Sav/Szol's Pina moves that spawned the leans, angled slides and backward leaning head holds we are seeing in many programs these days: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvp96fqlRTk

Or maybe the backward leaning head hold that (eg. James/Cipres do in their sp this season) was directly inspired by Oppegard's choreo in The Sorcerer's Apprentice resulting from the recent revival of views and discussion, which predates Dave Lease's recent mention.

 

[Xela M]

S&M's LP deserves to win Olympic Gold. It's very nearly perfection on ice.

Merkel needs to personally step in and grant him citizenship - NOW!

 

[clairecloutier]

Here's my review of the pairs event at Skate Canada:

https://adivinesport.com/2017/11/02/skate-canada-2017-pairs-review/

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Here's my review of the pairs event at Skate Canada:

https://adivinesport.com/2017/11/02/skate-canada-2017-pairs-review/

That was a quad twist from S&M???? how did I not notice that.... just seemed like a mile high triple..... The commentators on Olympic Channel didn't even point it out or mention it.

I thought only T&M, S&H and Knierims were the ones doing it currently.

 

[firstflight]

I predict that while most of the other top 10 finishers from 2017 Worlds will have their PCS stay within a general band across competitions this season, the two Canadian pairs’ PCS are going to be all over the place instead.

 

[Sylvia]

That was a quad twist from S&M???? how did I not notice that.... just seemed like a mile high triple.....

Just a typo. SP protocol says 3Tw4 (6.60 BV + 1.9 GOE) = 8.50

 

[clairecloutier]

Just a typo. SP protocol says 3Tw4 (6.60 BV + 1.9 GOE) = 8.50

Oops, sorry. I fixed it!

 

[whiteskates]

Thank you for the well written review, clairecloutier! A joy to read.

 

[firstflight]

Sui looks absolutely stunning with her hair pulled back in the FS. She almost looks like a different person.

 

[firstflight]

And now about their actual skating: Regardless of whether one prefers other programs (I totally see how Turandot can be a turn-off), I don't see how one can justify any other pair beating Sui/Han if they go clean at the Olympics. By clean, I mean even cleaner than today. They are soooo polished.

 

[ssminnow]

I love Sui/Han's short program. Their Turandot just doesn't do it for me and I can see them losing to other top teams if everyone goes clean. The reason Turandot worked so well for Shen/Zhao is that S/Z had this raw, almost unpolished energy, so they turn the familiarity of the music into their advantage. S/H's artistry is a little more subtle; they have better skating skills but less presence, so they would be better suited for a less dramatic but more nuanced piece of music.

 

[firstflight]

I love Sui/Han's short program. Their Turandot just doesn't do it for me and I can see them losing to other top teams if everyone goes clean. The reason Turandot worked so well for Shen/Zhao is that S/Z had this raw, almost unpolished energy, so they turn the familiarity of the music into their advantage. S/H's artistry is a little more subtle; they have better skating skills but less presence, so they would be better suited for a less dramatic but more nuanced piece of music.

I totally agree that the music was so much more effective for S/Z back in 2003, but I think it’s clear from last Worlds that the judges adore S/H and are willing to go sky high PCS for them regardless of the exact program.

 

[clairecloutier]

Here's my pairs review for Cup of China: https://adivinesport.com/2017/11/07/cup-of-china-2017-pairs-review/

 

[firstflight]

One more comment about Turandot— remember, Shen/Zhao did not reach their apex skate of that program until the end of their second season skating to it. It was such an “everything came together” rendition, of course fueled by the emotional roller coaster of her injury at that very Worlds.

Sui/Han are on a shorter time scale if they want to create that magical “Olympic moment” that matches S/Z’s 2003 performance. S/Z never got to experience that high at the 2002 Olympics with the fall. If S/H skate this FS clean during the Olympics, I bet one or both of them are going to explode in that last minute with spontaneous joy.

 

[smileyskate]

Jumping on to say that it was nice having David P. doing the commentary (CBC channel) for Cup of China. Throughout he was providing technical details which made it more interesting.

 

[slipchuk]

The only team I can see ever maybe beating Sui & Han if they go clean or almost clean or Savchenko & Massot and that is only if they themselves go clean, sorting out their massive consistency issues, their very poor start to the season, her chronic throw issues in the last 2 years, and most of all their throw triple axel issues. No chance in hell Tarasova & Morozov come close to beating a clean Sui & Han at this point. Duhamel & Radford certainly cant, even with the skates of their life at the 2016 Worlds they would have lost for sure had Sui & Han done a clean long program, and Sui & Han are only much improved since then. Stolbova & Klimov have lost too much ground in the last couple years to have any realistic shot, they barely have a podium shot at this point. So that leaves only Savchenko & Massot, and even they are very unlikely to come up with something that would likely beat a clean Sui & Han, especialy with their own consistency problems, and they havent even been good enough to win Europeans yet.