2017 ISU Challenger Series

I think they mean an event which is not EC or WC, that has been held each year since 1968.

Except that many other skating competitions have been held annually for far longer, including many national championships and some domestic competitions. And, of course, the Olympics have included figure skating since 1908. But why bother dealing with facts when you can make your own competition sound more impressive than it actually is?
 
f that's too many then make it two spots per country across the board. Just don't keep changing it.
Announcements with entry rules are published months in advance. I still don't see why all of the competitions need to follow the same entries rules, as long as they are clear about what the rules are.

Nebelhorn requirements have been stable for years: in non-qualifying years, they allow up to two for singles, if the member has placed a skater in the top ten at the prior year's Nebelhorn, and up to two for Pairs and Dance, both if the total field quotas aren't exceeded. That means that each member submits entries by the entry date, then the Nebelhorn organizers assess the entries and confirms those who can compete, which has not been an issue for Pairs and Dance. In qualifying years, only one entry per member is allowed in singles, and up to two in Pairs and Dance, based on the field limits.

As far as I know, they've never had more than the field size maximum worth of skaters trying to qualify for the Olympics. If they did and turned away members who were trying to qualify instead of expanding the fields, then they'd have an issue with the IOC, as the qualifier would be violating the ISU qualifying process. As far as I know, they haven't turned away single entries from members who had already qualified, to make room for nations that need to qualify. (Host spots aren't subject to these limits, but the German Fed has used host spots with discretion in the qualifier years.)

Although one year they allowed Miki Ando to compete without going through her Federation, and there was lots of :drama: surrounding that.

Skaters look at those dates, out their preferences in for events and then things change. Last year Montreal in particular was very challenging behind the scenes with skaters being told one thing about numbers until the close of entries, then numbers changing a few days later, then adding more skaters a few days later again. This meant that some had then changed preferences or purchased different flights only for numbers to change and spots opened up.
If the Montreal organizers or any other organizers violated/violate the terms of the announcement, then that is something the ISU should be slapping them over. The answer is enforcement of the existing contract, not another rule. If the announcement is written like the Nebelhorn announcement, then skaters should take into consideration the risk and odds that they might be bumped before listing the competition as their preference.

It should be very clear when places and dates are published, how many skaters may go to each event and such last minute, after entries close type changes should be avoided.
Which has nothing to do with Nebelhorn, where the process is described clearly, and, unless someone has an example otherwise aside from Ando being added one year, has been followed.

Also, if the members aren't reading and are assigning skaters improperly, which they have been known to do too regularly -- too many Chinese Pairs at Jr. Worlds, non-senior-age-eligible skaters competing, Feds promising too many spots to skaters at Nebelhorn in qualifying years -- then that's on them, not the organizers.
 
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For 2017 Nebelhorn Trophy, countries that did not qualify an Olympic spot at 2017 Worlds will be allowed enter one skater/couple/team in each category that they did not qualify. Entries that need to qualify for the Olympics will have priority.

Aside from these entries, countries who finished in the top 10 at 2016 Nebelhorn Trophy will be initially allowed enter one skater.

MEN - RUS, BEL, USA, MAS, CAN, JPN, TPE, SVK
LADIES - JPN, RUS, CAN, KOR, USA, BEL, GBR, CZE, AUS, FIN
PAIRS - CAN, USA, SUI
ICE DANCE - ITA, USA, CAN, KOR, FRA, BLR, GBR

Depending on how big the entry lists, additional skaters from a waiting list can be added.
 
Have they ever even had to turn down skaters because of the number of skaters/teams needing to qualify? Limiting spots to one for those who don't, maybe, but I don't remember the former happening.
 
Is there some huge list of skaters somewhere that have the ability, money, and Federation support to go to Challenger events & can't get in? I obviously don't follow all the athletes, but the large Federations like the U.S. and Canada are limiting their own athletes' participation due to funding and scoring criteria. Yes, they have athletes who could go and benefit from more World Standing points; but they don't send them all to multiple events. Canada is pinching pennies. And at least in the U.S., I'm pretty sure there's a certain required score in order to get second slots so it's not the top athletes who are limiting others' opportunities. Russia doesn't have entries in every discipline at all the Challengers either. (Their dancers barely attended two years ago). Lombardia had very few dance entries last season. I assume they'd have been very happy with more. Golden Spin let in loads of people. I cannot imagine the pairs fields were full at every event.

Yes, it could be possible to limit top athletes to one Challenger. If the issue is prize money, then I can see the argument. But is there really an issue of too little space for athletes who actually have the means to compete in these competitions?
 
The issue is not necessarily that smaller country skaters can't "get in" to the CS events, it's that the GP skaters basically double-dip by getting top ranking points from CS events as well as GP events, making it even harder for the smaller country skaters to improve their rankings and move up warmup groups at 4CC/Worlds or even make their way onto the GP.

I would have no problem with a rule barring two-GP skaters from the CS, or at least excluding them from earning ranking points/being eligible for the prize money. I raged at the CS top three last season, and two of those three were skaters I love very much. But the CS was not designed for Jason and Max.
 
I would have no problem with a rule barring two-GP skaters from the CS, or at least excluding them from earning ranking points/being eligible for the prize money. I raged at the CS top three last season, and two of those three were skaters I love very much. But the CS was not designed for Jason and Max.

Max did not get to go to 4CCs or Worlds. Why would CS not be designed for him? Shouldn't he have the right to earn his spot in the World Standings relative to his ability level? (Goodness knows WS marks are wacky enough already. Maybe we should rename them something else?). Jason missed his entire post season last year and could very easily have missed the U.S. team this season. One rarely knows who will miss out on the rest of the season. Monko & Khaliavin went out with an injury halfway through the GP last year; and despite a top 8 finish at Worlds the year before, they fell right out of the guaranteed GP spots list because they had not competed in any Challengers. I think if we are going to keep a World Standings list, then there ought to be more than one way for an athlete to demonstrate his/her worthiness to be on there.

Australia should host its own CS event.
Korea.
Kazakhstan.

We need more small-4CC-host-country inflation:).
 
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The Challenger Series documents all clearly state that Grand Prix skaters may also participate in Challenger Series events. There is nothing in the documentation to suggest that GP skaters shouldn't compete or take advantage of the chance to get more World Standings points. I see no language in the CS documents suggesting that the sole purpose of CS events is to help lower-ranked skaters from smaller federations rise in the standings. Yes, the series is meant to give non-GP skaters greater opportunity to compete and get WS points. But it also does not restrict higher-level GP skaters from bigger federations. Frankly if WS points/rankings are on the table, it should be everyone's chance to get them.

So, the stated ISU rules don't support the theory that higher-ranked GP skaters should not be allowed to compete in CS events or should be restricted to 1 event. I would argue that their participation raises the level of competition, ultimately to everyone's benefit.

What does it really mean for lower-level skaters to get good results in competitions that don't have a high competitive level? I mean, Chtchetinina/Scherer won a Senior B event this year over a quite weak field. And while it was a great result for them and I'm sure very encouraging, it didn't keep them from finishing dead last at Worlds or mean that their skating had moved to a higher level. If they had gotten WS points for that victory, and those WS points had moved them ahead of teams who were more competent but actually had lower results because they were competing at events with higher level of competition, how is that helpful for anyone, or indicative of reality?

Anyhow, here is the actual language from the ISU documents.

ISU Communication 1858
Announced introduction of ISU Challenger Series


1. Preamble
... The ISU Council agreed to financially support a restricted group of identified ISU Members traditionally staging International Figure Skating Competitions being part of the ISU Event Calendar.

This ISU support has the objective to ensure the proper and consistent organization and conduct of up to eleven (11) International Competitions linked together as a new ISU Series giving adequate opportunities for many Skaters to compete at the international senior level and earn World Standing Points and to increase the opportunity for Officials to officiate at an international level.

4. Participation
Participation is open to all Skaters/Couples of ISU Members, who are eligible for International “Senior” Competitions by age (Rule 108) and by citizenship (109), and entered through the respective ISU Member. There is a limitation for the Skaters/Couples to three (3) participations in the events of the ISU Challenger Series. Participation in any of an ISU Junior Grand Prix event or a (Senior) Grand Prix event does not limit the participation in events of the ISU Challenger Series. However Skaters having participated in the Junior and/or (Senior) ISU Grand Prix of Figure Skating during the same season should not have priority to enter events of the Challengers Series.


ISU Challenger Series 2016/17 Announcement
Announced this year's series

3.1 Participation

Participation is open to all Skaters/Couples of ISU Members with a maximum of 3 entries per category (except for the Host Member), who are eligible for International “Senior” Competitions by age (Rule 108) and by ISU Challenger Series in Figure Skating 2016/17 - 3 - citizenship (109), and entered through the respective ISU Member. The participation of Skaters from the Host Member into the respective ISU Challenger Series in Figure Skating event is not limited. There is a limitation for the Skaters/Couples to three (3) participations in the events of the ISU Challenger Series in Figure Skating. If a Skater/Couple does not complete an event after initially drawn for starting order of the Short Program/Short Dance due to illness, injury or other circumstances, such an event will count as one participation in the ISU Challenger Series.

Participation in any of an ISU Junior Grand Prix of Figure Skating event or an ISU Grand Prix of Figure Skating event does not limit the participation in events of the ISU Challenger Series. However Skaters/Couples participating in the ISU Junior Grand Prix of Figure Skating or the ISU Grand Prix of Figure Skating during the same season should not have priority to enter events of the ISU Challenger Series in Figure Skating.
 
I would wonder whether the hosts of the Challenger Series events would really want to keep the Grand Prix skaters out of their events because those skaters tend to be the ones that would attract more attention and be on the posters and advertising to help with ticket sales. Also, would the events have enough skaters (particularly North American events) if you removed all the entries with two Grand Prix events? Since the events have to have a certain number of entries from a certain number of countries withdrawing or restricting the entries might push the event below the required level and then none of the skaters would get any World Ranking points.
 
There are always a lot of foreign skaters training in North America. That includes "genuinely" foreign skaters like Yuzuru Hanyu, for example, and skaters like Amy Lin, who in American and has lived her whole life in the U.S. but represents Chinese Taipei.

So far, it hasn't been very difficult for the organizers of the North American CS events to recruit enough of such skaters to meet the quotas for having results count toward Season's Best Scores.
 
What does it really mean for lower-level skaters to get good results in competitions that don't have a high competitive level? I mean, Chtchetinina/Scherer won a Senior B event this year over a quite weak field. And while it was a great result for them and I'm sure very encouraging, it didn't keep them from finishing dead last at Worlds or mean that their skating had moved to a higher level. If they had gotten WS points for that victory, and those WS points had moved them ahead of teams who were more competent but actually had lower results because they were competing at events with higher level of competition, how is that helpful for anyone, or indicative of reality?

FWIW, ranking point systems across all sports have had this issue.

Tennis often has tournaments designated at the same level (same # of ranking points offered) but with vastly different depth of fields. Also, there are restrictions to the # of smaller level tournaments (equivalent to ISU challenger) that the top tier (#1-#20) can enter per year.
 
I don't think I can quote what I want to. Kwan fan, I'm not disagreeing with you, but I am talking about the Challenger Series in general and not Nebelhorn as it has always been clearly different.

Clairecloutier, you are correct in that the wording is clear, it was then just not every country following that. Skaters travelling long distances often look for two CS events back to back in close proximity. So last year for example, Salt Lake then Montreal on the same continent. Only for Montreal to tell skaters that no, they would only accept one skater per nation. So skaters change plans and flights, only for Montreal then to add skaters once ( after close of entries), then add even more closer to the event. These skaters had been told their entries wouldn't be accepted at first so made other plans.

I have no issues with the CS at all, it is great for skaters, we just need individual organisers of events to follow what the ISU has set out and not keep changing things within days of the events.
 
we just need individual organisers of events to follow what the ISU has set out and not keep changing things within days of the events.
The ISU has set out basic requirements that inherit the requirements for senior internationals to be able for skaters to earn WS points, ie, they can't be limited geographically.

It is the organizers who are responsible for devising the entry rules for their events, publishing them in the announcement, and enforcing those rules. If Montreal made an announcement, then changed the entry rules around, that's on them. Now skaters/teams understand that there's a risk in taking the Montreal organizers seriously.

It's the ISU's responsibility for slapping organizers that ignore the rules, including those who allow entries that don't meet requirements.
 
The Announcement for the ISU Challenger Series in Figure Skating 2017/18 has been published: http://static.isu.org/media/520340/cs2017-18_announcement-final.pdf

Re-posting here:
The minimum number of entries per discipline are as follows:
  •  Men / Ladies: minimum of eight (8) entries each, from at least four (4) ISU Members
  •  Pair Skating: minimum of five (5) entries from at least three (3) ISU Members
  •  Ice Dance: minimum of six (6) entries from at least four (4) ISU Members.
The entry deadline for each event should be not later than 21 days but at the earliest 30 days prior to the first official practice day. The exact entry deadlines of the respective event within the ISU Challenger Series in Figure Skating will be outlined in the individual event announcements. Late entries will need the approval of the ISU Vice President Figure Skating.
At this time, only the 2017 Nebelhorn Trophy Announcement is published: http://static.isu.org/media/508473/owg-qualifying-competition-nebelhorn-trophy-2017-announcement.pdf
 
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Autumn Classic International tickets went on sale last Thursday and all-event tickets are listed as being sold out (Hanyu is scheduled to compete): https://skatecanada.ca/2017/07/ticket-information-2017-autumn-classic-international/

https://skatecanada.ca/event/2017-autumn-classic-international/

Really?? I was planning on going; it never even occurred to me tickets might sell out (or that they'd even be on sale-- there was no schedule posted as of last week or so). Good heavens, it's a Senior B, not Worlds ... oh well .... :(
 
Really?? I was planning on going; it never even occurred to me tickets might sell out (or that they'd even be on sale-- there was no schedule posted as of last week or so). Good heavens, it's a Senior B, not Worlds ... oh well .... :(

It's Hanyu.

I only hope that he doesn't change his plans and withdraw, because if he does, the rink will be left almost empty for those who might be fans of other skaters competing, and that will be a disgrace.
 
It's Hanyu.

I only hope that he doesn't change his plans and withdraw, because if he does, the rink will be left almost empty for those who might be fans of other skaters competing, and that will be a disgrace.

Disgrace?
 
Really?? I was planning on going; it never even occurred to me tickets might sell out (or that they'd even be on sale-- there was no schedule posted as of last week or so). Good heavens, it's a Senior B, not Worlds ... oh well .... :(

LOL You should've known that if you want to go to an event, and Hanyu is competing, you better be awake and ready the minute the tickets go on sale...
 
It never occurred to me that tickets would sell out either; I was hoping to head up Friday for the SD. :wuzrobbed
 
I'm shocked that it sold out. The only individual seats left are Thursday! I went last year for Saturday only. I did buy a ticket in advance but it didn't seem that packed to me. And Hanyu has skated at this event two times before.
Well I guess I won't be making a return trip. Thank goodness for the live streaming (though there is no info there, but Skate Canada always has live streaming of their events).
 
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It's Hanyu.

I only hope that he doesn't change his plans and withdraw, because if he does, the rink will be left almost empty for those who might be fans of other skaters competing, and that will be a disgrace.

In my experience, 95% of Yuzu fans only go to watch him, they don´t stay more than 2 skaters before or after him.
 
Really?? I was planning on going; it never even occurred to me tickets might sell out (or that they'd even be on sale-- there was no schedule posted as of last week or so). Good heavens, it's a Senior B, not Worlds ... oh well .... :(

Do you know who else is will be there? I think daily tickets are $35.oo ea. Maybe u can get sAT.& sunday
 
I wonder if Skate Canada is going make a limited number of daily tickets available for local area folks? Someone should contact them and ask.

The entries by name submission deadline dates for 5 of the first 6 Challengers are:

U.S. Classic/SLC: Friday, August 11, 2017– 20:00 h (Colorado Springs, USA – Mountain Time)
Lombardia/ITA: Announcement not yet online that I can find
Autumn Classic/CAN: Friday, August 18, 2017 – 20:00 h (EST)
Nepela/SVK: Friday, August 18, 2017 – 20:00 h (local time Bratislava).
Nebelhorn/GER: Friday, August 25, 2017 (20:00 local time)
Finlandia/FIN: Friday September 1, 2017 – 8 pm (local time Espoo)
 
I wonder if Skate Canada is going make a limited number of daily tickets available for local area folks? Someone should contact them and ask.


Autumn Classic/CAN: Friday, August 18, 2017 – 20:00 h (EST)



T
 
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