Long Program Breakdown: Ladies Olympic Medalists 92-02

CoolGuy

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I thought that it would be interesting to take the ladies Olympic Medalists from 1992-2002 and break down their long programs by looking at the amount of time the ladies spend doing crossovers/basic stroking, jump preparation, two-foot skating & posing, and choreography (well... non-two foot skating & posing choreography). So, what I did was load all 12 programs into Adobe Premiere, cut out all of the technical elements, and tried to categorize the categories listed above.

I also have to say, this was a bitch to do; it wasn't easy to make some decisions on what should go where, and when a cut should be made, etc... I mean, once you think you have a good idea of what should classify as two-foot skating and posing vs "choreography," or when you should start tracking "jump preparation," the next skater comes along and just ruins your thought process. I have gone back and forth so many times on different things, that if I were to go back and do it again, some things would probably change. So just keep in mind that this is by no means perfect, and that with someone else's eyes, different decisions would be made. I tried to stay as internally consistent as possible, but there will undoubtedly be a crossover here or there that accidentally wound up under choreography (so, allow for some give or take with regards to the times given to each skater). And finally, this assessment makes no judgement calls regarding the quality, cohesiveness, or actual difficulty of what is being done; it's just measuring how much time they're doing stuff. So, with that huge disclaimer out of the way, here is the video:

https://youtu.be/vdMRKObBbhU
(each video column is a different Olympics, and the rows are organized by placement)

Just some comments about each category and the skaters:

Crossovers/Basic Stroking
  • This was the most straightforward category to cut. There may be a second's worth of crossovers that were missed for some skaters here or there, so I would give a +/- 1 second margin of error in this category.
  • I'm sorry, but Lu Chen and Baiul have some ugly ass crossovers while Nancy has some really nice crossovers.
  • If Kwan skated her Scheherazade program like she did at nationals, there would've been two seconds less of crossovers (1 second of crossovers after the footwork vs 3 seconds to setup the final triple toe)... not that it would've mattered.
Jump Preparation
  • I tried to start timing this when they "assume the position," for lack of a better term. Essentially, when the stroking and or transitions end, the setup begins (or at least within reason; I mean, I include the last three-turn or mohawk going into most of these jumps).
  • I also included a brief category for the average jump preparation, because some skaters do 8 jumping passes while others only do 6, and it makes a significant difference in where skaters rank... I think both measurements are valid because if you can do 7 triples in only 6 passes, you should be recognized for not having to spend as much time setting up for a jump; however, at the same time, that doesn't mean you aren't taking a relatively long time setting up those 6 jumping passes either.
  • Midori Ito and Kristi Yamaguchi finish all of their jumping pass preparations (of which they have 7 and 8, respectively) before Slutskaya finishes her first three... I swear, the lutz and salchow take an eternity to get through.
  • Baiul has one ugly triple toe preparation.
Two Foot Skating & Posing
  • This (and the next) category was the most difficult to determine. Initially I was just going to have this as part of the Choreography category, but then you have some skaters who are literally standing there doing nothing while someone else is doing every damn transition in the book getting credit for the same thing; however, determining what should go under this less-desirable category wasn't easy. Standing still and waiving your arms? Not desirable. Gliding forwards with both feet next to each other? Not desirable. However, what about gliding forwards with one foot directly in front of the other? What about doing it all on an edge instead? What if your feet are crossed when you're doing this? What if you do a turn with both feet on the ice? And then you have posing... What if your feet moving while posing (even though you're not really going anywhere)? And what if you are going somewhere, but just one step at a time (not that I'm referencing Baiul here...)? So, to make my life easier, I included pretty much all of the above in this category. I'm still undecided about the opening of Baiul's program though, where parts of it could possibly be considered desirable choreography.
  • The things I didn't include in this section, despite being on two feet, were Ina Bauers, spread eagles, and a pivot turns (or whatever you call it when you jam one toe-pick in the ice and do a turn with your other skate supporting you).
  • This section (and the next) will be the ones that spark the most debate and require the most revising.
Choreography
  • It shouldn't surprise anyone who wins this category, nor should it surprise anyone who loses this category (nor should it surprise you by how much they win or lose this category by).
  • Kerrigan does this hopping 3-turn out of several of her jump landings, so I included these in the choreography section (doesn't really add that much time to choreography, but I thought it was a nice little detail with her skating).
  • Kwan's Scheherazade program at nationals has 7 seconds of additional choreography with the split falling leaf sequence and running butterflies (which would've put it above Lyra Angelica in choreography duration :eek:).


If you want to spoil yourself with the results without watching the video, see below (ranked in order of best to worst):






Code:
+----------------+---------------+
|      NAME      | CROSSOVERS    |
+----------------+---------------+
| 1992 Ito       | 0:00:36.57    |
| 1994 Lu Chen   | 0:00:39.97    |
| 1992 Yamaguchi | 0:00:45.97    |
| 1994 Kerrigan  | 0:00:47.97    |
| 1998 Kwan      | 0:00:48.60    |
| 2002 Hughes    | 0:00:49.57    |
| 1992 Kerrigan  | 0:00:52.33    |
| 2002 Slutskaya | 0:00:52.47    |
| 1998 Lu Chen   | 0:00:58.80    |
| 1998 Lipinski  | 0:01:00.27    |
| 1994 Baiul     | 0:01:00.47    |
| 2002 Kwan      | 0:01:03.83    |
+----------------+---------------+

+----------------+--------------+
|      NAME      | JUMP PREP    |
+----------------+--------------+
| 1992 Ito       | 0:00:13.83   |
| 1992 Yamaguchi | 0:00:14.17   |
| 1992 Kerrigan  | 0:00:16.77   |
| 1994 Kerrigan  | 0:00:17.23   |
| 1998 Lipinski  | 0:00:17.83   |
| 1994 Lu Chen   | 0:00:19.37   |
| 2002 Hughes    | 0:00:19.73   |
| 1994 Baiul     | 0:00:21.43   |
| 2002 Slutskaya | 0:00:21.80   |
| 1998 Lu Chen   | 0:00:22.63   |
| 1998 Kwan      | 0:00:23.20   |
| 2002 Kwan      | 0:00:24.83   |
+----------------+--------------+

+----------------+--------------------+
|      NAME      | JUMP PREP PER JUMP |
+----------------+--------------------+
| 1992 Yamaguchi | 0:00:01.77         |
| 1992 Ito       | 0:00:01.98         |
| 1992 Kerrigan  | 0:00:02.40         |
| 1994 Lu Chen   | 0:00:02.42         |
| 1994 Baiul     | 0:00:02.68         |
| 1994 Kerrigan  | 0:00:02.87         |
| 1998 Kwan      | 0:00:02.90         |
| 1998 Lipinski  | 0:00:02.97         |
| 2002 Kwan      | 0:00:03.10         |
| 2002 Slutskaya | 0:00:03.11         |
| 1998 Lu Chen   | 0:00:03.23         |
| 2002 Hughes    | 0:00:03.28         |
+----------------+--------------------+

+----------------+-------------------+
|      NAME      | TWO FOOT & POSING |
+----------------+-------------------+
| 1994 Lu Chen   | 0:00:14.87        |
| 1998 Kwan      | 0:00:19.27        |
| 2002 Kwan      | 0:00:20.67        |
| 1992 Yamaguchi | 0:00:23.53        |
| 1992 Kerrigan  | 0:00:28.13        |
| 2002 Slutskaya | 0:00:29.03        |
| 2002 Hughes    | 0:00:31.70        |
| 1992 Ito       | 0:00:39.73        |
| 1998 Lu Chen   | 0:00:40.27        |
| 1998 Lipinski  | 0:00:43.13        |
| 1994 Kerrigan  | 0:00:45.30        |
| 1994 Baiul     | 0:00:45.53        |
+----------------+-------------------+

+----------------+--------------+
|      NAME      | CHOREOGRAPHY |
+----------------+--------------+
| 1994 Lu Chen   | 0:01:46.47   |
| 1992 Yamaguchi | 0:01:22.53   |
| 1992 Ito       | 0:01:13.43   |
| 1998 Kwan      | 0:01:11.43   |
| 1992 Kerrigan  | 0:01:10.10   |
| 2002 Hughes    | 0:01:07.37   |
| 2002 Kwan      | 0:01:05.40   |
| 1994 Kerrigan  | 0:01:03.93   |
| 1994 Baiul     | 0:01:01.53   |
| 2002 Slutskaya | 0:01:00.07   |
| 1998 Lu Chen   | 0:00:51.80   |
| 1998 Lipinski  | 0:00:45.37   |
+----------------+--------------+
 
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Thanks @CoolGuy! I can tell this must have been a laborious process--but the results are definitely interesting!

Some quick reactions:

1. LOL on Baiul having the most 2-foot skating/posing. No surprise there. :)

2. It is interesting to note that, of the 2-time Olympic medalists in this survey (Kerrigan, Chen, Kwan), you can see that in most of their categories, they definitely went slightly downhill in their second Olympic appearance (i.e., slightly more crossovers/posing/jump prep, slightly less choreography).

3. As a Yamaguchi fan, I'm pleased to see her score quite "high" in most categories (i.e., relatively less jump setup/crossovers/etc., relatively more choreography). I've always believed that the quality of programs Kristi put out in 1992 was very high, and in many ways ahead of her time--this supports that theory.

4. Also interesting to see that Kwan had the most total jump setup time (in both her Olympics). On the one hand, it's considered "better" to have less jump setup; on the other hand, maybe that's why her jumps were so consistent overall.
 
4. Also interesting to see that Kwan had the most total jump setup time (in both her Olympics). On the one hand, it's considered "better" to have less jump setup; on the other hand, maybe that's why her jumps were so consistent overall.

I think a reason for that is because Kwan had 8 jumping passes in both the 1998 and 2002 Olympics because if you look at the jump prep time per jump, Kwan still spends a lot of time time prepping her jumps compared to say Yamaguchi and Ito and Chen, but it's not the top two like it was in the average jump prep time category.

I also had no doubt Yamaguchi and Chen 1994 would score high because their programs were packed. I was surprised Ito scored high but only because I don't remember her in 1992, other than that triple axel, as well as the others.
 
I just watched the video and read the entire post.. Seems WAY COOL..

But I don't understand a thing... :(

What exactly are we measuring or evaluating in each category for each person.. Im completely lost... I don't understand what the time means for each tile (skater). I understand what the categories are but have no idea what we are judging or comparing.......

Can someone help me

what does it mean that someone gets a 36:09 and the next for someone is 36:17

added later: OK, I rewatched the video and reread the post and am even more confused. I don't understand a thing. Choreography was the last category.. so what does that mean.. Lipinski is the worst (because hers came up first as 12th) and Lu was the best at 1? That means she did one minute and 45 seconds of choreography??

Im so lost. LOL
 
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Thanks @CoolGuy! I can tell this must have been a laborious process--but the results are definitely interesting!

Some quick reactions:

1. LOL on Baiul having the most 2-foot skating/posing. No surprise there. :)

I was actually surprised at how much time Nancy spends doing the same thing in 1994; they're practically tied (and a lot of it depends on what one actually considers two-foot skating and posing). I was also surprised at how much two foot skating Ito does (she was the second skater that I edited, since I went in chronological order).

4. Also interesting to see that Kwan had the most total jump setup time (in both her Olympics). On the one hand, it's considered "better" to have less jump setup; on the other hand, maybe that's why her jumps were so consistent overall.

As @VIETgrlTerifa noticed, that's due to the number of jumping passes; the only skaters with 8 jumping passes are Yamaguchi, Lu Chen (94), Baiul, and Kwan (98, 02). So, while Kwan is by no means quick with her jump preparation, she's roughly on par with (or somewhat quicker than) her direct rivals in 98 and 02. That being said, Yamaguchi and Ito are in classes of their own.

I just watched the video and read the entire post.. Seems WAY COOL..

But I don't understand a thing... :(

What exactly are we measuring or evaluating in each category for each person.. Im completely lost... I don't understand what the time means for each tile (skater). I understand what the categories are but have no idea what we are judging or comparing.......

Can someone help me

what does it mean that someone gets a 36:09 and the next for someone is 36:17

added later: OK, I rewatched the video and reread the post and am even more confused. I don't understand a thing. Choreography was the last category.. so what does that mean.. Lipinski is the worst (because hers came up first as 12th) and Lu was the best at 1? That means she did one minute and 45 seconds of choreography??

Im so lost. LOL

Oh, sorry if I made it confusing... it's looking at how much time a skater spends doing something. So, when it says that for crossovers, Yamaguchi has a time of 0:00:45.97, that means 45.97 seconds of her program is nothing but crossovers. Since it is generally believed that the less time you spend doing crossovers in your program, the better it is, those skaters with a lower time are scored higher (ie: first one done = 1st and last one done = 12th). The same is true for jump preparation, skating on two feet, and posing (these are all typically considered negative things), so you want to be the first skater to finish in these categories.

Choreography/one foot skating is the opposite; generally, the more choreography you have, the better, so you would want your skaters spending more time doing this. As a result, if you finished first, then that means you have less choreography than the others (and therefor come in last place for this category); here, you want to be the last skater standing. I thought it would be interesting to visually compare the skaters with these metrics, so can see just how much longer a skater is spending stroking around the ice, or who truly is the last skater actually skating (and when you watch the video, it's just ridiculous how much longer Lu Chen is out on the ice actually doing choreography compared to the others).

It seems you got the hang of it with the end part of your post... so, yea, Lipinski is the worst when it comes to actually doing choreography because she only spends 45 seconds doing any, while Lu Chen is by far the best because she spends 1 minute and 45 seconds.
 
^^ Totally got it now. Thanks. (but I loves me some Lipinski) :) but yeah she was known for her jumps so I wouldn't expect her to slam dunk the category.

Would be interesting if you did this for 06, 10 and 14
 
You know Oksana did pose a lot, but she sure was moving while she was doing it shaking it all kinds of ways. Your measurements here would vindicate a poster I used to talk to on GS (like 12 years ago...:eek:) who always argued that Oksana's posing was exaggerated when compared to Nancy because Nancy posed just as much. This is also bringing me back to the 2002 program construction debates. I KNEW Irina did more posing than anyone else in 2002 and by some way too.
 
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^^ Totally got it now. Thanks. (but I loves me some Lipinski) :) but yeah she was known for her jumps so I wouldn't expect her to slam dunk the category.

Would be interesting if you did this for 06, 10 and 14

Considering some of the recent debate regarding the men's medalists in other threads, I was thinking about doing it for them; however, one issue is that the revisions in COP will skew the results (going from 4 spins to 3, and replacing one footwork sequence with a choreographic sequence, which seems to be shorter in duration, would allow those in 2014 to spend more time doing choreography... or at least you would think).

I also have a rough cut for all of Kwan's programs from 96 to 2005 (including Miraculous Mandarin and both versions of Bolero), which I thought would be interesting (are all of the Morozov programs really that empty, and are all of the Lori Nichol programs really that special? And if so, by how much? Also, how superior is Miraculous Mandarin to Scheherazade in these measures, if at all? etc...).

You know Oksana did pose a lot, but she sure was moving while she was doing it shaking it all kinds of ways. Your measurements here would vindicate a poster I used to talk to on GS (like 12 years ago...:eek:) who always argued that Oksana's posing was exaggerated when compared to Nancy because Nancy posed just as much.

Before doing this, I always said to myself that not only was Nancy's skate better technically, but her program/choreography was easily superior.... all Baiul was doing was just standing there posing and shaking her hips while Nancy was actually skating. Now I tell myself that Nancy's program/choreography was superior because her posing was more aesthetically pleasing :D
 
Could you please do your Kwan one? I'm super curious now. I also think there were like four versions of Bolero that were different from one another.
 
Thanks for the analysis, CoolGuy

Now I tell myself that Nancy's program/choreography was superior because her posing was more aesthetically pleasing :D

And that's a subjective judgment about which the judges might well have disagreed
 
@CoolGuy would you mind doing Midori Ito's 1988 Olympic LP, which is the prototype for all modern ladies LPs.

I would do it myself, but I do not think my results would be consistent with yours.

Your work is very interesting!

You absolutely right. Watching Midori Ito's 1988 LP, it really was the prototype of the modern day ladies long program.
 
What a cool project! Thanks @CoolGuy !

Some observations:

- Contrasting Chen in 1994 and Kwan in 2002, both had relatively intricate programs but Chen did much less crossovers. Kudos!

- The interesting observation for the jump prep per jump stats is that medalists in each Olympic quad were gradually using more time to take up their jumps! Kudos esp to Lipinski since she had 2 big combos in there.

- Surprised to see Kerrigan had almost as much 2foot and posing as Baiul in 1994.

- I think the last 2 categories clearly support why Kwan deserved a higher second mark than Slutskaya in 2002.
 
Wow What a hard work. That's impressive !
Of course it doesn't show the overall quality of the skating, the choreography, and so on, but it's very interesting. Thanks !
I'm surprised Nancy Kerrigan and Oksana Baiul have almost the same 2-foot/posing time. But anyway, I'm not surprised they have more than everybody else !
And glad to see Lu Chen 1994's LP recognized for its intricate choreo !
 
You know Oksana did pose a lot, but she sure was moving while she was doing it shaking it all kinds of ways. Your measurements here would vindicate a poster I used to talk to on GS (like 12 years ago...:eek:) who always argued that Oksana's posing was exaggerated when compared to Nancy because Nancy posed just as much. This is also bringing me back to the 2002 program construction debates. I KNEW Irina did more posing than anyone else in 2002 and by some way too.
I might be the last person on earth to say "I'd enjoy Nancy". But heck I remember Nancy did not pose as much as Oksana in 1994.
 
Nancy's 1994 Olympic LP can easily be broken down and discussed using figure skating terminology. You can't do that with Oksana's 1994 Olympic LP because a lot of the time Oksana is just walking forward and backward rhythmically or doing improvised tapping and arm waving.
 
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I will get Midori's 88 Olympics LP (as well as Kwan's 96-2005) programs up hopefully by Sunday; but I was thinking that perhaps I should put together a collection of cases in order to gauge what everyone else thinks on how things should be categorized (ie: should case A, B, and C be categorized as posing or choreography), and whether or not I should redo some categories... such has having 2-foot skating and posing in separate categories; there's quite a few difficult to categorize cases, that I think having additional input would go a long ways towards helping getting everything correct. I also thought about having levels of choreography like there are levels of spins under COP, but while that may make assessment more accurate, it also makes it more time consuming.
 
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I think this is fine as it is. I think you should leave it simple, and let those viewing it analyze the quality of "choreography" and "two foot skating/posing".
 
I think it will be interesting (although sad) to see an analysis of Kwan's programs over the years. To see the crossovers and 2 footed skating go up, and choreography go down...
 
Oksana is an Olympic Champion, and she deserves to be. When a skater makes it look as easy as she did, and people feel like they can get out there themselves and move across the ice as she could...

You cannot train that. Oksana was a natural.
:oksana1:

ETA: She did much more than just pose. Nancy could never skate using her whole body from head to toe as Oksana did. Nobody could. Scott Hamilton commented as much. He was correct, and her competitors knew it.
 
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Jumping in to say I loves me some good posing:

Katarina's Carmen and Oda's Chaplin programs come to mind. Love, love, love!
 
Jumping in to say I loves me some good posing:

Katarina's Carmen and Oda's Chaplin programs come to mind. Love, love, love!
:lol: Oda, oh yes, his Chaplin was all about some good posing. :inavoid:

It is ironic, some fans suggesting certain glorious skaters from the past would pose too much during competitions, yet they are likely to be fans of Ashley Wagner, and that's OK, just slightly hypocritical, IMHO. Although to be fair, I think at least one ;) is pro-Gracie Gold, who does not hold a pose for points.

BTW: I'm not taking a shot at AW, but when you think of a skater who likes to pose, AW often comes to mind.
 
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