U.S. Ladies [#18]: These Boots Are Made for Skating

[kwanfan1818]

There's no way of knowing or controlling which bullet points each and every judge awards for each and every jump element or preventing the judges from giving +2s and +3s to jumps with 5 or more positive bullets, only one of which is an arm variation.

That's why jumps should be leveled, with the tech panel assessing difficulty, and the judges should judge quality of entrance, air position, and landing, IMO.

 

[Sylvia]

https://www.instagram.com/p/BVTPVEnne8C/

Ting Cui's jumps in Restencourt's video montage are (* = with both arms clasped overhead):
2A+3T*, 2A-half loop-3S*, 3Lo*, 3F, 3F*-half loop-3S*, 3Lz* step forward/skate into another 3Lz*, 3Lz-half loop-3S*-half loop-3S*, 3Lz*+3T, 3Lz*+3T*.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Triple-triple-triple is absolutely allowed in freeskates.

The last time I saw I think was Kevin Van DerPerren. Duck Button loved them.

 

[DimaToe]

Smart move by Restencourt, you have to know HOW to advertise your skater on social media, he did it early enough so that she's already in the conversation by the time JGPs are starting to be assigned. Plus given the placements by our juniors as of late it's not like USFS can really pass up someone who is jumping like that.

 

[skateboy]

people don't want to see triple-triple-triples, they don't to see quads,

They don't? Heck, I do!

 

[skateboy]

Am I wrong in thinking that the large majority of fans really dislike Tano/Rippon arms on nearly every jump?

Personally, I like it for maybe one jump in a program (I don't expect everyone to agree with me on that, though). I'd rather see creative arm positions for spins and footwork.

 

[Tavi]

Here's the original link to Vincent's instagram post (as opposed to another account reposting other people's content):
https://www.instagram.com/p/BVTPVEnne8C/

I hate how the arms are the new thing! But she's very talented

So does Ting Cui now coach with Tammy Gambill or is Vincent Restencourt now in Baltimore?

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Am I wrong in thinking that the large majority of fans really dislike Tano/Rippon arms on nearly every jump?

Personally, I like it for maybe one jump in a program (I don't expect everyone to agree with me on that, though). I'd rather see creative arm positions for spins and footwork.

Its a GREAT surprise when its one but it becomes a bit unspecial once the majority of the jumps are done that way. Its takes away all the uniqueness.

I say Innovate in other ways.

 

[StitchMonkey]

I think a compromise could be reached with a system that does not forbid or penalize arm variations, but limits how many times arm variations can be used for +GOE.

If the skater really wants to Tano all their jumps... fine, let them. But why not only give each arm variation a GOE bullet point once (or twice or twice but must be in combination, or one double and one triple... there is a lot of room here)? In spins you can repeat features but you only get the credit for a feature once... make tano/rippons the same.

This way a skater is not restricted... they can choose whatever they think is best for them, but there is no incentive to tano everything so I don't think we would see as much repetition. If it was per variation, we might see more skaters trying more different variations, which I think would be welcome.

I almost might add the language to something like "arm variation that adds to the overall effect of the jump without diminishing quality"

 

[Sylvia]

So [is] Ting Cui now with coach Tammy Gambill or is Vincent Restencourt now in Baltimore?

I believe Ting Cui worked with Tammy Gambill for a period of time last summer when Restencourt was still there. Restencourt has since returned to coaching on the East coast (PA and/or MD) and accompanied Ting to Bavarian Open this past February: https://www.instagram.com/p/BQlBf9Mgggy/?taken-by=itscoachvincent

 

[gkelly]

I think a compromise could be reached with a system that does not forbid or penalize arm variations, but limits how many times arm variations can be used for +GOE.

If the skater really wants to Tano all their jumps... fine, let them. But why not only give each arm variation a GOE bullet point once (or twice or twice but must be in combination, or one double and one triple... there is a lot of room here)? In spins you can repeat features but you only get the credit for a feature once... make tano/rippons the same.

You can limit features in spins and steps (and lifts) because there are three people working together to keep track of features and only features + whether the element meets the definition or not.

You can't limit how many times a GOE bullet point is awarded because each judge decides separately for each element and they have enough other + and - bullet points plus program components to keep track of, each on their own. Even if you wrote a rule outright forbidding judges from rewarding this particular bullet point more than X times per program, you'd never know who awarded it or didn't without requiring so much record-keeping documentation that judges wouldn't have time to assess everything they're assessing now.

Even if certain jump bullet points were taken away from the judges and given to the tech panel as features, you still might get some judges who are sufficiently impressed by well-executed jumps with variations to reward them more highly than they would have without those variations. (And there would still need to be at least 6 bullet points if not 8, redefined, available to jump elements in order to allow for +3 for jumps that excel in multiple areas.)

This way a skater is not restricted... they can choose whatever they think is best for them, but there is no incentive to tano everything so I don't think we would see as much repetition. If it was per variation, we might see more skaters trying more different variations, which I think would be welcome.

I almost might add the language to something like "arm variation that adds to the overall effect of the jump without diminishing quality"

This I agree with.

Maybe there should be additional wording written into some of the GOE guidelines, either as part of the bullet point itself or an added explanation below. E.g., for "varied position in the air / delay in rotation" (assuming that bullet remains the same within the list), the explanation could note something like "Attention should be paid to the quality, difficulty, and originality of the variation -- simple common variations weakly performed should not be rewarded. Variety of variations within a program and appropriateness to the music chosen should also be considered."

Or that last sentence could be adapted into explanations of some of the Composition component criteria.

You still would get different judges exercising their individual judgment as to what's sufficiently difficult or well-performed or original enough to reward or not, and we still wouldn't know exactly what each of them were thinking. But they would have reason to consider those aspects and not just reflexively bump up the GOE another grade every time a skater's arm goes up in a jump, if indeed that's what any of them are doing.

Putting that in writing would also give skaters reasons to attempt more difficult, more original, more choreographically purposeful variations in hopes of even more rewards.

 

[Coco]

I feel the components criteria is a garbled mess, but what should happen - due the limitations spelled out by gkelly - is that one of the components should have as a bullet point 'executes elements in a way that enhances interpretation of the music and the overall impression of performance.'

So someone who 'code-whores' should get a lower mark on that component because they are doing stuff (arms over head on jumps, difficult variations that go against the music, etc.) that detracts from the overall artistic impact of the program.

But I would also like to add that if the skater has publicly stated that it is easier for her to jump with her arm over head, she shouldn't earn this bullet point.

 

[Sylvia]

Would someone like to start a thread in GSD to discuss judging matters/offer suggestions for improving the judging system?

ETA:

Meryl Davis interviewed Gracie Gold at the beginning of the Stars on Ice tour when they were in Florida: https://www.facebook.com/starsonice/videos/10154560448035936/

 

[Tavi]

I believe Ting Cui worked with Tammy Gambill for a period of time last summer when Restencourt was still there. Restencourt has since returned to coaching on the East coast (PA and/or MD) and accompanied Ting to Bavarian Open this past February: https://www.instagram.com/p/BQlBf9Mgggy/?taken-by=itscoachvincent

Thank you, Sylvia!

 

[el henry]

So, knowing nothing about Ting Cui and curious also about Coach Vincent caused me to do deep level research I watched the video verrrry closely

Vincent Restencourt's IG video of Ting Cui was taken at the IceWorks in Aston Pa, where the Liberty summer comp is held. I believe Coach Vincent worked there before he left for 7k and he is currently listed as part of the professional coaching staff for at least one program at Ice Works

https://www.iceworks.net/figure_junior_competitive.shtml

Aston is five minutes from the Delaware border and probably an hour drive from Baltimore.

 

[Debbie S]

Aston is five minutes from the Delaware border and probably an hour drive from Baltimore.

My understanding is that Vincent is coaching both at IceWorks and at a rink in MD that is closer to the Baltimore area. I believe Ting works with him at both rinks.

Neither Ting nor Novice Ladies champ Angelina Huang are in the ISP right now (probably b/c of fewer JGP ladies spots) but I hope they'll be added over the summer and get a chance at a JGP in the fall.

 

[millyskate]

Great than Vincent is doing so well as a coach. He seems to have found his niche, and as a quad pioneer showing he has solid technical understanding.

Its a GREAT surprise when its one but it becomes a bit unspecial once the majority of the jumps are done that way. Its takes away all the uniqueness.

I say Innovate in other ways.

I think this is where the misunderstanding lies. Arms above head is not about being unique, it's not about innovating. It's about setting a new base standard for the way jumps need to be performed in order to be considered technically competent. It's about upping the ante.
Previously, all jumps with arms close to the body looked the same. Now we have jumps with arms above the head. They look the same as well. But they are harder. The sport is evolving, and the new normal looks different, we just have to get used to it. It's setting apart those who are capable of doing it, and those who are not.

 

[Vagabond]

There's nothing new about jumping with arms over the head. Skaters such as Tiffany Chin, Midori Ito, and Brian Boitano were all doing it back in the 1980's, and I wouldn't be surprised if someone dug up a video of a skater doing it in the 1970's. What is new is doing it in so many jumping passes in the same program.

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

Arms above head is not about being unique, it's not about innovating. It's about setting a new base standard for the way jumps need to be performed in order to be considered technically competent.

So why not extra points for interlaced fingers, or patting your head and rubbing your stomach. Is there no place for aesthetics in the sport at all any more? The arm over the head is a variation in ballet - beautiful when done properly. Never, a part of all jumps. In fact, usually ugly as done today - the helicopter, the floppy elephant trunk, etc. The sport is getting dumber and dumber every season.

 

[mattiecat13]

My issue with Med's arm over her head is both the frequency and the fact the position, as she does it, is ugly. Her arm is not straight up but bent over her head.

 

[gkelly]

There is a small reward (at most one bullet point, which is half of one GOE grade), for any variation of the air position in a jump.

I say "at most" because there is no guarantee that a skater who attempts a variation will get that extra GOE point from any of the judges, let alone most or all.

Interlacing fingers or patting head and rubbing stomach during the in-air part of a jump would deserve the reward just as much as arm overhead.

There's nothing in the rule that singles out "arm overhead" as a specific way to get that bullet point.

As air position variations go, it's one of the easier ones.

I do think there is value in rewarding added difficulty , even if the aesthetics are lower at first. The first triples, first triple axel, first quad were less attractive than easier jumps that the same or other skaters were doing at the time -- but the added difficulty was worth rewarding. And eventually many skaters became able to do those moves beautifully.

Arm variations and air position variations were common when top skaters did double jumps or single axels. They're much less common with triples are the name of the game. But any skater who can add a variation and also rotate 3 or even 4 times in the air certainly deserves reward for mastering that level of difficulty.

I think that it would be appropriate for the rule/guideline to encourage judges to consider the difficulty of the variation as well as the aesthetics when deciding whether to award that bullet point.

Right now, judges have the option of rewarding in GOE only, in the Composition component only, or both or neither, or rewarding in one and penalizing in the other as appropriate.

It wouldn't hurt to spell all that out explicitly not only for the judges but also for the skaters and fans, so it would be more obvious where skaters can gain and lose points in their decisions to incorporate variations. (And so that fans won't think that added difficulty should never count unless it's also beautiful or unless it's as obviously quantifiable as number of rotations in the air.)

 

[Sylvia]

My understanding is that Vincent is coaching both at IceWorks and at a rink in MD that is closer to the Baltimore area. I believe Ting works with him at both rinks.

Neither Ting nor Novice Ladies champ Angelina Huang are in the ISP right now (probably b/c of fewer JGP ladies spots) but I hope they'll be added over the summer and get a chance at a JGP in the fall.

Thanks, Debbie. I'm also hoping they both will be added to the ISP this summer.

I'm working on updating my Scoretracker blog and the top 2 Junior ladies scores in early club competitions known so far are from Alysa Liu (159.63) and Hanna Harrell (152.35) who were 4th and 6th in Novice, respectively, at 2017 Nationals.

Ashley Lin scored a 53.24 in the sp at Bluebonnet Open.

I haven't seen results published online yet for this small comp. in Austin, TX this past weekend. Lin is the 2017 U.S. Junior bronze medalist who is moving up to Senior, I believe.

Courtney Hicks posted on Instagram that she is keeping her 2 choreographers -- Rohene Ward (SP: https://www.instagram.com/p/BUNJcb5h0SX/ ) and Jonathan Cassar (FS: https://www.instagram.com/p/BRw9UR_B0HD/ ) - "Amazing Grace" is playing in this recent practice clip that includes spread eagles (a la Cassar) and her split single flip: https://www.instagram.com/p/BVLF3ToBKkq/

Side note that I'm impressed by Hicks' balance and right quad muscle strength in this off-ice exercise: https://www.instagram.com/p/BVQ7cofhJhH/?taken-by=courtneynhicks

 

[Doggygirl]

My issue with Med's arm over her head is both the frequency and the fact the position, as she does it, is ugly. Her arm is not straight up but bent over her head.

THIS!!! Her bent arm makes it look like a dead fish is flopping above her head as she rotates. I respect the tech prowess of Janny, but my opinion of her dead fish stands.

 

[Sasha is DIVINE]

Medvedeva's Rippon jumps that she debuted at Worlds are quite lovely and straight up over her head.

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

Remember skaters sometimes did doubles, landing with the hands on hips? That was lovely. Never saw anyone try with a triple.

 

[Sylvia]

Remember skaters sometimes did doubles, landing with the hands on hips? That was lovely. Never saw anyone try with a triple.

https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/index.php?threads/arms-variations-on-the-air.101260/#post-5085445

ETA from Karen Chen's cheer thread:

Karen posted this photo from Vancouver/Richmond Olympic Oval yesterday [June 2] - (just guessing) perhaps one of her programs has been choreographed by Mark Pillay? https://www.instagram.com/p/BU2t6_Djwrn/?taken-by=karebearsk8&hl=en
Pillay choreographed her 2013-14 FS to Miss Saigon.

It looks like Misha Ge may be choreographing a competitive program for Karen (he did her "Rise"/Katy Perry SOI program): https://www.instagram.com/p/BVVvHMiB2Vv/?taken-by=mishage8&hl=en

 

[clairecloutier]

Okay, I don't know if this is going to come out right, but I'll just say ... Too much Rippon-ing and Tano-ing bothers me because I feel like it goes against good basic jump technique. As a skater myself (basic adult level), I find that when I jump, even baby single jumps, the natural instinct is to pull in. The more you pull in, the tighter and more efficient the rotation. Your natural instinct when you jump is NOT to wave your arms up or pat your belly or put your hands on your hips midair. In fact, having your arm up can cause the jump to go wrong. I just feel that for most skaters, trying to Tano and Rippon too much could lead to more falls and less security in their jumps. And what for? I suppose if you are a jumping machine like Med or, perhaps, Ting Cui , then maybe it is safe to do so much Tanoing/Ripponing. But if you are a lesser skater, I worry that it compromises safety and possibly good technique. And, even if you're very good, why should you have to so often operate against what is your natural instinct, and also the safest and most efficient way to jump?

Now, I know some people will argue that doing quads is also risky, and that is true. But doing a quad is taking the basic jump technique and extending it another rotation. So, to me that feels more natural than excessive Tanoing/Ripponing.

This is all aside from the fact that I don't find excessive Tanoing/Ripponing to be aesthetically pleasing. And at the end of the day, I want this sport to look good. I enjoy an occasional Tano/Rippon. Anything more than that adds nothing for me, nor does it unduly impress me in terms of the jumper's ability. I would rather see a nice high beautiful jump with a great running edge out. That is what I'm looking for when it comes to jumps.

 

[Bellanca]

Medvedeva's Rippon jumps that she debuted at Worlds are quite lovely and straight up over her head.

Yeah, agree.

I like tano-ing and the individual interpretations from skaters that do them because no two are alike. Boitano's were amazing! As @Vagabond mentioned, an arm over the head has been around for awhile now.

 

[Karpenko]

They're beautiful when done well, it's just turned into overkill so you can't appreciate it as much. Everybody is doing it now and all the time, and some of the skaters kind of just half-ass the arm position.

That said, Medvedeva's jumps are beautiful even without them and she'll be the best ladies skater either way. I'm also confident that she'd be the one to adapt the best to any curve balls they'll throw in the rules this year. A competitor does not wilt, she'd still find a way to end up while clobbering the field.

 

[emilieh]

Bradie Tennell scored a 67-something in the SP at the Southport competition in southern Wisconsin tonight. She looked great with a 3/3 and 3lo (I think).