Mass Shooting at LGBT Nightclub in Orlando

[Tinami Amori]

How many more people have to die before something is done about gun control in the U.S.?

It is an unfortunate fact that guns are only one of many methods/tools which are used to cause the mass murders.

What do you need to outlaw to prevent Oklahoma City Bombing? Ammonium nitrate sold for agricultural uses?
http://www.history.com/topics/oklahoma-city-bombing

What do you need to outlaw to prevent Boston Marathon explosions? Nails and pressure-cookers?
http://www.history.com/topics/boston-marathon-bombings

An automobile, which can plow into a crowd? An aircraft which can fly into buildings? Matches and petrol, to stop arson attacks?

Why do people single out guns? Scrutiny of prospective gun owners is a good thing, but taking away guns from responsible citizens is clearly a liberal ploy, for 2 obvious reasons:

- Because 2nd amendment protection is viewed as a “conservative issue”.
- Because some believe that “the wealthy ones” who are trying to protect their land and property from intruders, should just “let that poor teenager burgle your house and take your TV and jewelry. He needs it more than you do. And if he rapes your daughter, she deserved it, for not devoting her life to fighting poverty”.

If people are objecting to linking this tragedy to Islam, although the guy did claim his crime in the name of ISIS, why are the same people gladly linking this tragedy to gun control, when there are so many other methods to implement hate crimes??!! Don’t link to Islam, but do link to something against conservative issues?? Clearly such hypocrisy has to do with partisan bias…..

The issue for me is a need of some individuals to destroy other people who cause them NO harm. That is what needs to be addressed.

 

[Prancer]

- Because some believe that “the wealthy ones” who are trying to protect their land and property from intruders, should just “let that poor teenager burgle your house and take your TV and jewelry. He needs it more than you do. And if he rapes your daughter, she deserved it, for not devoting her life to fighting poverty”.

What a bizarre world you live in, where people say such things.

 

[Sparks]

 

[TOADS]

I told Lady Figurekates what will most likely happen next. She said I hope not but I think you are right.....

 

[allezfred]

Why do people single out guns?

Because the sole purpose of guns is to kill.

In a civilised country a person's right to own a gun shouldn't come before a person's right not to be killed by one. There is blood on the hands of those who have fought tooth and nail to keep it easy for people like Omar Mateen, Adam Lanza and Dylann Roof etc to get access to guns.

 

[jlai]

How many more people have to die before something is done about gun control in the U.S.?

I am afraid the answer is not in my lifetime. All the NRA folks have to be gone first

 

[VALuvsMKwan]

Because the sole purpose of guns is to kill.

And, not saying that I agree with those who think what I am about to post, many others see them as methods of protection and security and defense against crime against, or unwarranted government intrusion into, their lives and property.

Until the fear underlying that mentality is addressed and defused, if ever it can be, the desire for guns will remain.

I guess posting "Please don't shoot the messenger" is overwhelmingly ironic as my next thought.

 

[AYS]

Article posted by 538 today: Terrorists are turning to guns more often in US terrorist attacks

Experts say the increased use of guns in terror attacks is an alarming trend. Arie Perliger, director of terrorism studies at the U.S. Military Academy, said that U.S. terrorists are turning to guns because since Sept. 11, the federal government has monitored the use of explosives and the trade of materials that can be turned into explosives.3 People on the terrorism watch list aren’t barred from buying guns, by contrast, although such a ban probably wouldn’t have stopped the Charleston or San Bernardino shootings, because the suspects weren’t on the watch list.

But perhaps more importantly for today's shooting:

Guns are easier for terrorists to work with than explosives “and are less likely to result in a terrorist operation being compromised,” .... “That’s particularly appealing to lone wolves. We’ll see more of that in the U.S.”

Yes there are other alternatives and we need to use a multi-pronged approach these mass killings (terrorist or hate motivated) that focuses not only on guns, but on providing mental health support, better FBI surveillance of terrorist threats, shutting Donald Trump's mouth before he further aids ISIS in their recruiting activities and further alienates and ostracizes the immigrant population, facilitating increasing acceptance and fighting against homophobia in our society, etc etc. None of this negates the critical need to address the problem we have in the US with guns. Again, putting it as either/or is a deflection.

And finally (seeing @jlai 's post): even if it's too late now, for our present society, we need to start doing it, even if it takes a 100 years to realize a less gun-violent society.

 

[Tinami Amori]

What a bizarre world you live in, where people say such things.

It's the same world for all of us now, called "internet" where such ideas are stated.
http://lawnewz.com/crazy/woman-kills-home-intruder-and-media-actually-outraged-at-her/
"You have to look at it from every child’s point of view that was raised in the hood,” Johnson cousin Naukita Harris said. “You have to understand… how he gonna get his money to have clothes to go to school? You have to look at it from his point-of-view.”

You want to see more? there is plenty on the subject of letting the poor kids burgle your house, because they are poor...

Because the sole purpose of guns is to kill.

A gun can be used to "attack" and to "defend/protect". Using a weapon on your own territory or in self-defense when attached, is one of the reasons for 2nd amnd.
When the government successfully accomplish taking away EVERY illegal gun or weapon from every "bad guy" who can attack regular citizens, and shows proof of such, and provide sufficient protection on the streets and at home for regular citizens, only THEN we can start a conversation about gun ownership for the rest of the population.

===
I like this attitude, and agree with what is said about Gay Community.
http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...in-to-fear-after-the-orlando-shooting-florida

Although I kind of like the Divine’s idea….
http://onmilwaukee.com/images/artic...ival/2013lgbtfilmfestival_fullsize_story1.jpg
https://badnewthings.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/divinegun.jpg?w=587&h=587

 

[oleada]

I also want to point out that the GOP blocked a bill shortly after the San Bernadino shotings (that had overwhelming public support!) that would have prevented terror suspects or people who were linked to terrorism from buying guns. This shooter was investigated TWICE for links to terrorism. Yet here he is, able to buy an assault rifle. The NRA and these politicians have blood on their hands.

We are literally the only developed country with this level of gun violence. The only difference is access to guns. There is no reason why an ordinary citizen needs an AK-47. None.

 

[ballettmaus]

Why do people single out guns?

I'd say because events in other countries have shown that it's a lot harder to commit an attack with any other weapon. Bomb attacks usually happen when actual members of terrorist groups commit them and a lot of them are prevented because it required more planning and organizing and that leaves a trace, knife attacks can be horrible but usually don't result in mass casualties.

I don't think that anyone believes that acts of hatred and terror are going to end when you restrict gun laws. But it'll make it more difficult for terrorists to get their hands on weapons of mass destruction and the more difficult it is, the less attacks there are going to be and the easlier it will also be for law enforcement to prevent it.

 

[Asli]

This news is devastating. How terrible. I'm wordless.

 

[Tinami Amori]

I don't think that anyone believes that acts of hatred and terror are going to end when you restrict gun laws. But it'll make it more difficult for terrorists to get their hands on weapons of mass destruction and the more difficult it is, the less attacks there are going to be and the easlier it will also be for law enforcement to prevent it.

First, take away guns from the bad guys, then we can talk about guns for regular citizens.

 

[Prancer]

It's the same world for all of us now, called "internet" where such ideas are stated.
http://lawnewz.com/crazy/woman-kills-home-intruder-and-media-actually-outraged-at-her/
"You have to look at it from every child’s point of view that was raised in the hood,” Johnson cousin Naukita Harris said. “You have to understand… how he gonna get his money to have clothes to go to school? You have to look at it from his point-of-view.”

You want to see more? there is plenty on the subject of letting the poor kids burgle your house, because they are poor...

Ah, you mean that some people think human life should be valued over material possessions? Yeah, that's a pretty old idea, dating back to well before the internet. Not surprising that people take that idea to an extreme.

Where can I find people saying that my daughter deserves to be raped because she isn't working to eradicate poverty? Not that I doubt that there are people who say such things, because you can just about always find someone who is saying something stupid and extreme and nonrepresentative of just about anyone else on the web if you look for it.

What I find odd is that someone would seek out such comments and then consider them especially meaningful.

 

[twinsissv]

How simple it would be to just finally learn an important life lesson from a piece of cloth. THE RAINBOW FLAG-
Yes! They are lovely colors when shown separately. What deep, rich tones we see with each strip standing on its own. But so much more beautiful when blended together side-by-side as one connected and united piece of fabric. So simple...and yet...those difficult words again. Connected and united.

 

[ballettmaus]

First, take away guns from the bad guys, then we can talk about guns for regular citizens.

How do you distinguish between a "good guy" and a "bad guy"? How do you know the "good guy" isn't a sleeper? How do you know the "good guy" won't suddenly snap for whatever reason? How do you know that the "good guy"'s neighbor won't kill him in his sleep with a knife to get his gun because the neighbor is a "bad guy" and then use the weapon to commit an act of hate or terror or both?
Sure, bad guy neighbor can buy an illegal weapon or kill someone who legally owns a weapon. But, again, that would already make it a lot harder and would make access more difficult and that is the whole point.

I think that hunting rifles are one thing, every other gun is another. I don't think that any ordinary citizen is in needs of a 9mm pistol. What for? And please don't say protection because every European and Canadian and Australian etc citizen lives just fine without owning guns. Emphasis on lives.

But for now I'd be happy if those on watch-lists and those who've got a criminal record and those who have drawn attention to them in any other suspicious way would be banned from legally buying guns. It's a start and at this point I'd take it.

 

[Lara]

How many more people have to die before something is done about gun control in the U.S.?

That Sandy Hook wasn't enough is a disgrace and every incident since makes me more furious/despairing about that fact.

Devastated for the victims and their families.

 

[rjblue]

I had a nice visit from a friend last night who has a degree in modern Middle Eastern history. I was telling her about some of the things I have learned on FSU lately, and mentioned the killings in Jerusalem that have affected members here. I said I can't imagine living with such a threat and she pointed out that the same gun culture of hate is developing in the USA. And then I woke up to this in the news today.

eta- In Canada, if you shoot someone who is stealing your property without threatening your person, you are committing a crime and will possibly go to jail. And you certainly will if you kill them.

 

[ballettmaus]

If people are objecting to linking this tragedy to Islam, although the guy did claim his crime in the name of ISIS, why are the same people gladly linking this tragedy to gun control, when there are so many other methods to implement hate crimes??!! Don’t link to Islam, but do link to something against conservative issues?? Clearly such hypocrisy has to do with partisan bias…..

I'm not opposed to linking it to Islam. I'm saying it shouldn't be a priority because it doesn't matter if it was Islamic terrorism or Christian terrorism or any other form of terrorism. It was terrorism. And it was terrorism because someone who had no need for it was able to get an assault rifle legally. That's why I think it's linked to gun control and should be linked to gun control. Because even without ISIS this guy would likely have found another group, another reason to commit his act of crime. From all reports he seems to have developed his hatred on his own without having been radicalized by ISIS and it stands to reason that he'd committed the crime one way or the other.

I'm willing to concede that he is likely to have committed the crime with his job-issued weapon, too. However, it is a lot less likely that it would have resulted in a mass shooting because it would have been a lot easier to overwhelm him.

I also think that, as someone who had been questioned by the FBI twice because he was suspected of having terrorist ties had no business of working on a field that allowed him access to a gun. But again, that's not connected to Islamic terrorism because someone like him would probably have followed any other terrorist group which appealed to his way of thinking. That's why I think that the most important thing is to recognize it as terrorism and which kind is the least important thing right now.

 

[once_upon]

I am afraid the answer is not in my lifetime. All the NRA folks have to be gone first

I don't think it will happen in my great great grandchildren's lifetimes. People are too attached to their perceived security in gun ownership. We are not safer when everyone owns guns. That's a falsehood

 

[Artistic Skaters]

Hanging my head in shame for Indiana.

I'm unclear about why you are hanging your head in shame for Indiana. According to the article you linked, the suspect is not to be in possession of firearms & is in violation of his probation. Do you believe his actions are sanctioned by the residents of Indiana or they have no LBGT residents in their state? The article says he previously lived in Louisville, KY - are you shaming them too?

 

[Spun Silver]

A further point that needs teasing out is your notion of the extent of homophobia in "mainstream" Islam. What evidence do you have for this? I could just as easily say that homophobia was "mainstream" in Christian evangelicalism (and I speak as a former evangelical). Would you agree with that? Would you feel it necessary to address it as vigorously as you are addressing "mainstream Islam"? Would you view mainstream evangelical homophobia as leading to this sort of hate crime as easily as you view it happening in Islam. I think there are many in the LGBTQ community who would argue that there is a fairly close relationship between 1) religious notions of homosexuality as sinful, 2) homophobia, and 3) hate crimes and that the latter often take place within the context of the former without the overt exhortations to violence that you cite. I agree with the last-mentioned, but think the relationship between the three factors it is a little more complex.

It is not hard to find evidence.

Sheik Yusuf Al-Qaradawi (perhaps the most influential living Sharia authority for Sunni Muslims): "Should [the punishment for "the abominable practice," ie homosexuality] be the same as the punishment for fornication, or should both the active and passive participants be put to death? While such punishments may seem cruel, they have been suggested to maintain the purity of Islamic society and to keep it clean of perverted elements."

Reliance of the Traveller (the authoritative Sharia manual): "The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said: 1. "Kill the one who sodomizes and the one who lets it be done to him." 2. "May Allah curse him who does what Lot's people did." 3. "Lesbianism by women is adultery between them."
http://www.nationalreview.com/artic...g-florida-anti-gay-violence-rooted-muslim-law

I don't know if it's my computer or the websites, but I am not able to copy text. (I manually copied the above.) Here is a 2009 article from Der Spiegel on a wave of homophobia in the Muslim world. Hundreds of Iraqui men suspected of being gay were murdered and their bodies mutilated. They were hunted down by morality police from Sunni and Shia militia as well as the Iraqui security forces.
http://www.spiegel.de/international...ophobia-sweeps-the-muslim-world-a-647913.html

From a 2012 article in The Economist:

Of the seven countries that impose the death penalty for homosexuality, all are Muslim. Even when gays do not face execution, persecution is endemic. In 2010 a Saudi man was sentenced to 500 lashes and five years in jail for having sex with another man. In February last year, police in Bahrain arrested scores of men, mostly other Gulf nationals, at a “gay party”. Iranian gay men are typically tried on other trumped-up charges. But in September last year three were executed specifically for homosexuality.

2009 poll finds "zero tolerance" for homosexuality among British Muslims.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/may/07/muslims-britain-france-germany-homosexuality

2013 Pew Research Center study: "Muslims overwhelmingly say that homosexual behavior is morally wrong, including three-quarters or more in 33 of the 36 countries where the question was asked.... Only in three countries do as many as one-in-ten Muslims say that homosexuality is morally acceptable: Uganda (12%), Mozambique (11%) and Bangladesh (10%)."
http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-morality/

 

[Allskate]

The Orlando shooter's ex-wife is on CNN with her fiance. I feel so sorry for this woman. She was briefly married to him and her family rescued her from him because he was violent and unstable. She thinks that he has always been mentally unstable and mentally ill and that steroids also may have played a role. She saw no signs of religion playing a role in his treatment of her or his angry disputes with his family. But, she has not seen him in seven years, so she has no way of knowing what role religion and terror groups might have played.

 

[Alixana]

Something like this, for example: At precisely 7 a.m. Sunday Dan Patrick tweeted a photo with the words of Galatians 6:7. The verse reads, "Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows."

I'm what some people would call an fundamentalist Christian and this tweet INFURIATES me. Lt. Gov. Patrick, you may not like how other people choose to live their lives, but how DARE you rejoice in their death?

 

[Simone411]

And, not saying that I agree with those who think what I am about to post, many others see them as methods of protection and security and defense against crime against, or unwarranted government intrusion into, their lives and property.

Until the fear underlying that mentality is addressed and defused, if ever it can be, the desire for guns will remain.

I guess posting "Please don't shoot the messenger" is overwhelmingly ironic as my next thought.

I will admit that I had a gun in 1992 when someone tried to break into my home through my bedroom window. It was just me living at my home and my ex sister-in-law was on the phone with me during the time the break-in happened.

It was on a Friday night around 9 p.m. when I heard a loud thump in my bedroom. The person that was trying to break in had knocked over my entertainment center that was in front of the window. It scared me so bad that I started screaming and I shouted that I had a gun. By the time I got my bedroom, I could see his head backing out of my window and then the curtain was only moving. I shot through the window anyway because I wanted him to hear the gunshot and realize I had a gun.

This man knew what he was doing. He had removed my windows screen first. He then removed the seal that was around my window pane and I never heard him do it. If it wouldn't have been for that entertainment center, he would have more than likely sneaked up behind me while I was in the living room, and I wouldn't have had time to get my gun.

The man was caught 30 minutes later about 3 blocks away from my home. He broke into another woman's home the same exact way that he broke into my home. The woman happened to be in her bedroom when it happened. When he stuck his head through the window, she put a gun to his head and told him not to move.

The man was a stalker. He wasn't breaking in to rob anything. He had a list with seven single attractive brunette women on it. His plan was to break in, rape us and then kill us. He knew when we all went to work, when we came home, when we left to go shopping, etc. The man told the police that he was really upset with me because I had messed up his plans. I was the first woman on the list, and he was upset because I started screaming and shot the gun. He told the police if he ever got out of jail that he would come after me and finished what he planned.

The police explained to me that it was how a stalker's mind was, and I had messed his plans up from the very start. I had to stay at my parents' home until I could get it more secure. I had put bars on the back windows and the side windows of my home.

When I was at NurseCare in December of 2011, my home was broke into again. This was a real robbery, and several things were stolen including some valuables that can never be replace like my mom's and grandmother's rings etc. I then realized and so did my family that it was a blessing that I wasn't at home. The robbers might have killed me if I would have been there. They also stole my gun and an antique shotgun that belonged to my dad.

I now have deadbolts, bars that go across the bottom of my doors and a security system. I would say that it's as secure as Fort Knox. The thing that disturbs me the most, however, is that they stole the gun and shotgun. All of that was reported to the police and itemized. I don't plan on getting another gun. My home is very secure now, and even though the gun helped in saving my life because of the stalker, I feel it's still dangerous to have them. And yes, I know how to use a gun and took courses (target practicing) etc. when I was in my twenties.

 

[Eden]

Tel Aviv's city hall lights up in solidarity with American victims of terror.

 

[PRlady]

How many more people have to die before something is done about gun control in the U.S.?

Fred, sorry, but there's no-one who's been in the political crossfire on this more than I was, once. I don't believe we can do anything about this in the near future. The politics just don't work.

If, with a conservative Dem from a gunowning state co-sponsoring, we couldn't get a basic bill to close the gunshow loophole through the Senate after 20 little kids were gunned down a few years ago, this isn't going to do it either.

 

[nlloyd]

It is not hard to find evidence.

Sheik Yusuf Al-Qaradawi (perhaps the most influential living Sharia authority for Sunni Muslims): "Should [the punishment for "the abominable practice," ie homosexuality] be the same as the punishment for fornication, or should both the active and passive participants be put to death? While such punishments may seem cruel, they have been suggested to maintain the purity of Islamic society and to keep it clean of perverted elements."

<snip> 2009 poll finds "zero tolerance" for homosexuality among British Muslims.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/may/07/muslims-britain-france-germany-homosexuality

2013 Pew Research Center study: "Muslims overwhelmingly say that homosexual behavior is morally wrong, including three-quarters or more in 33 of the 36 countries where the question was asked.... Only in three countries do as many as one-in-ten Muslims say that homosexuality is morally acceptable: Uganda (12%), Mozambique (11%) and Bangladesh (10%)."
http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-morality/

I would never deny the brutal laws against LGBTQ people in force in some Muslim countries nor the violent ends to which they have been put. Rather, I was questioning your notion that homophobia was "mainstream" to US Muslim culture in a way that somehow informed this violence and made it uniquely "Muslim." You seem to be simultaneously viewing Islam as an undifferentiated, singular constituency and uniquely and uniformly homophobic. It feels to me like you are implying that because some Muslim countries promulgate these horrific laws and punishments, many Muslims may be amenable to the kind of carnage we saw last night. And that the reason for this is because all Muslims are homophobic.

The problem with citing religious authorities to support your claim is that it works for many religions. The pope, for example, while very progressive on many social issues, has not countered long-held Catholic notions that homosexuality is a sin. Many, many Catholics worldwide would respond in a similar way to the respondents in the above surveys. As would many evangelicals. You may argue that Catholic and evangelical leaders do not incite their followers to violence; however, time and again we have seen the violence that ensues from their homophobia. It is not necessary to verbally incite violence in order to foster it.

It is worth noting, too, that while religious leaders may espouse particular views, followers may not. This is true of American Catholics and homosexuality, for example. With regard to Muslims, the Guardian goes on to say show 35% of French Muslims found homosexual acts to be acceptable. I wonder if this can be said of American evangelicals, even. Homophobia is obviously less "mainstream" in Muslim communities in France than you suggest. There are regional differences at play.

While you view this event primarily through the lens of ISIS terrorism, which you associate closely with Islam in general, for many gays and lesbians it will be an example of a many forms of violence coming from diverse source. Many LGBTQ people will not distinguish between religious sources. They will see it all as religiously-generated. From my point of view, it feels as if you are trying to hitch this event to anti-Muslim, fear-mongering agenda, before LGBTQ people have even had the chance to grieve.

 

[caseyedwards]

Nothing is going to be done as long as the argument from gun control supporters is so timid and dictated by NRA talking points about the second amendment. Time to go big and start pushing repeal of second amendment.

 

[Buzz]

I will admit that I had a gun in 1992 when someone tried to break into my home through my bedroom window. It was just me living at my home and my ex sister-in-law was on the phone with me during the time the break-in happened.

It was on a Friday night around 9 p.m. when I heard a loud thump in my bedroom. The person that was trying to break in had knocked over my entertainment center that was in front of the window. It scared me so bad that I started screaming and I shouted that I had a gun. By the time I got my bedroom, I could see his head backing out of my window and then the curtain was only moving. I shot through the window anyway because I wanted him to hear the gunshot and realize I had a gun.

This man knew what he was doing. He had removed my windows screen first. He then removed the seal that was around my window pane and I never heard him do it. If it wouldn't have been for that entertainment center, he would have more than likely sneaked up behind me while I was in the living room, and I wouldn't have had time to get my gun.

The man was caught 30 minutes later about 3 blocks away from my home. He broke into another woman's home the same exact way that he broke into my home. The woman happened to be in her bedroom when it happened. When he stuck his head through the window, she put a gun to his head and told him not to move.

The man was a stalker. He wasn't breaking in to rob anything. He had a list with seven single attractive brunette women on it. His plan was to break in, rape us and then kill us. He knew when we all went to work, when we came home, when we left to go shopping, etc. The man told the police that he was really upset with me because I had messed up his plans. I was the first woman on the list, and he was upset because I started screaming and shot the gun. He told the police if he ever got out of jail that he would come after me and finished what he planned.

The police explained to me that it was how a stalker's mind was, and I had messed his plans up from the very start. I had to stay at my parents' home until I could get it more secure. I had put bars on the back windows and the side windows of my home.

When I was at NurseCare in December of 2011, my home was broke into again. This was a real robbery, and several things were stolen including some valuables that can never be replace like my mom's and grandmother's rings etc. I then realized and so did my family that it was a blessing that I wasn't at home. The robbers might have killed me if I would have been there. They also stole my gun and an antique shotgun that belonged to my dad.

I now have deadbolts, bars that go across the bottom of my doors and a security system. I would say that it's as secure as Fort Knox. The thing that disturbs me the most, however, is that they stole the gun and shotgun. All of that was reported to the police and itemized. I don't plan on getting another gun. My home is very secure now, and even though the gun helped in saving my life because of the stalker, I feel it's still dangerous to have them. And yes, I know how to use a gun and took courses (target practicing) etc. when I was in my twenties.

So sorry @Simone411 for what you went through!