Mass Shooting at LGBT Nightclub in Orlando

[Wyliefan]

"In retrospect Sandy Hook marked the end of the US gun control debate. Once America decided killing children was bearable, it was over."

With respect, that is really not a fair way to put it. I own a gun, and I promise you, I do not believe that killing children is in any way "bearable." I also promise you that (apart from practice) my gun is never going to be used for anything except to defend myself against an attacker.

 

[clairecloutier]

So horrified by what's happened. I don't have words adequate to address it. I'm shocked and frightened for the LGBT community, who were victimized by the attack. It makes clear that, for all the progress that's been made toward equality, we're still not there yet and there are still psychos who will actually kill to express their hatred. When I think of LGBT friends, and that a similar attack could affect them, it's horrifying. But also I'm thinking how this is an attack on all of us, an attack on humanity. This psycho targeted the LGBT community--the next could hit an African-American church or a women's group or a Muslim-American mosque. It's an attack on all of us and on an open & inclusive society.

Agree with @allezfred that the right to defend yourself & bear arms must not come before the right of others to stay alive. And increasingly, there's a conflict there. Assault rifles must be banned to limit the damage of these insane attacks, but really, the whole issue of gun control needs serious reexamination.

Here's a column about the attack from my friend & fellow skating blogger Sarah Rasher:

Responding to the Tragedy as an Angry, Out Figure Skating Fan
http://thefinersports.sportsblog.co...gedy-as-an-angry--out-figure-skating-fan.html

 

[misskarne]

With respect, that is really not a fair way to put it. I own a gun, and I promise you, I do not believe that killing children is in any way "bearable." I also promise you that (apart from practice) my gun is never going to be used for anything except to defend myself against an attacker.

If your gun is stored correctly and safely, how do you think you're going to get to it in time? A "bad buy" is not going to sit around and politely wait for you to unlock the safe, put it together, unlock the ammo safe, and load the weapon.

 

[Wyliefan]

If your gun is stored correctly and safely, how do you think you're going to get to it in time? A "bad buy" is not going to sit around and politely wait for you to unlock the safe, put it together, unlock the ammo safe, and load the weapon.

Nor am I going to sit around and politely wait for the bad guy to climb the stairs before making a move. Given the number of people who do manage to use their guns to protect themselves -- anywhere from 108,000 to 3,000,000 times a year, according to research compiled and studied by the CDC -- I'd say it's a myth that it can't be done.

I don't consider myself a "gun nut" and I recognize that the use of a weapon is not the ideal way to handle a situation. In a perfect world, we wouldn't need guns to defend ourselves against anything, ever. But then, in a perfect world, we wouldn't have burglaries, rapes, and murders.

 

[pat c]

[QUOTE-Tinami Amori]I have a question: what EXACT objections (other than hidden motivations of social justice, redistribution, and all sorts of class issues) do Liberals have against a law-abiding family or home owner owning a gun for home protection of his property and family from the buglers if he keeps his/her gun safe?[/QUOTE]


1. The weapon is more often than not turned against the home owner.
2. The weapon isn't accessible if needed, and if it is too handy so often it's the wrong people who get shot. ie children
3. A person's right to safety far outweighs a homeowners right to protect their *things*.
4. Too many people don't know how to safely handle weapons, which leads back to #1.

Hand guns or single shot rifles/shotguns aren't the problem in all of these massacres. It is semi automatics. Any hunter I know of worth their salt, doesn't hunt with a semi automatic. Only people hunting people use semi automatics. (generalization).

 

[TOADS]

Could never understand the rationale for owning an assault rifle...really?

For the record, I don't own any guns and really not interested in doing so....

A friend of mine who does asked me what would you do if someone broke in a tried to kill you both.

I told I just hope they have Starbucks where ever we end up....

 

[snoopy]

Also report is coming out which I hope can be verified is from high school classmates of the shooter who said the shooter cheered during the 911 attack and said praise Allah. If this is indeed the case then it definitely looks like this guy fell through the cracks.

He didn't really fall through the cracks. He was investigated by the feds but they couldn't find any concrete ties to terror groups. Now maybe one could say he fell through the gun law loop holes.

 

[TOADS]

He didn't really fall through the cracks. He was investigated by the feds but they couldn't find any concrete ties to terror groups. Now maybe one could say he fell through the gun law loop holes.

Well they didn't do their job. When all his tirades included a lot of homophobic garbage, that sure as shit is falling through the cracks in my book...

 

[BlueRidge]

"In retrospect Sandy Hook marked the end of the US gun control debate. Once America decided killing children was bearable, it was over."

With respect, that is really not a fair way to put it. I own a gun, and I promise you, I do not believe that killing children is in any way "bearable." I also promise you that (apart from practice) my gun is never going to be used for anything except to defend myself against an attacker.

This is important. Do I agree with Wyliefan about guns? Mostly no. But do I think that we can afford to claim that everyone who disagrees with liberals on guns finds "killing children bearable?" No.

There are those who are reprehensible and engage in actions such that they can only be condemned. But people we disagree with politically are not those people. We have to find a way to see the humanity in everyone, even when something they say may anger us. We have to find our common ground. We have to be able to live together.

We need to all try to embody the opposite of the Orlando shooter.

 

[Wyliefan]

This is important. Do I agree with Wyliefan about guns? Mostly no. But do I think that we can afford to claim that everyone who disagrees with liberals on guns finds "killing children bearable?" No.

There are those who are reprehensible and engage in actions such that they can only be condemned. But people we disagree with politically are not those people. We have to find a way to see the humanity in everyone, even when something they say may anger us. We have to find our common ground. We have to be able to live together.

We need to all try to embody the opposite of the Orlando shooter.

Thank you for that, @BlueRidge. That's all I was trying to say -- you said it much better.

 

[once_upon]

"In retrospect Sandy Hook marked the end of the US gun control debate. Once America decided killing children was bearable, it was over."

With respect, that is really not a fair way to put it. I own a gun, and I promise you, I do not believe that killing children is in any way "bearable." I also promise you that (apart from practice) my gun is never going to be used for anything except to defend myself against an attacker.

I don't think all or even majority think killing children is bearable.

With all due respect to you and your legal right to own a gun, there is really no firm promise tha a gun will never be used for any other than your intended purpose. It maybe your only intent.

It may not be the intent of anyone who knows you have one.

I don't agree with your opinions on gun ownership - I do acknowledge the constitutional law that allows you that right. No one needs the assault weapons.

 

[MsZem]

With respect, that is really not a fair way to put it. I own a gun, and I promise you, I do not believe that killing children is in any way "bearable." I also promise you that (apart from practice) my gun is never going to be used for anything except to defend myself against an attacker.

Is your gun an assault rifle? I'm guessing it's not.

I don't pretend to understand American gun culture, but I think that some weapons shouldn't be owned by civilians. And it seems like part of the problem in the US is that any attempt to regulate and curb gun use is seen as an attempt to keep everyone from owning any kind of gun. Surely it is possible to limit access to certain weapons, and by certain people, without having this sort of slippery slope situation?

 

[TOADS]

Is your gun an assault rifle? I'm guessing it's not.

I don't pretend to understand American gun culture, but I think that some weapons shouldn't be owned by civilians. And it seems like part of the problem in the US is that any attempt to regulate and curb gun use is seen as an attempt to keep everyone from owning any kind of gun. Surely it is possible to limit access to certain weapons, and by certain people, without having this sort of slippery slope situation?

Maybe it is due to terminology. As soon as you say "gun control" or "gun regulations"' the immediate knee jerk reaction is they want to take all guns away.

Maybe we need another approach to the issue but I haven't an answer at the moment..

 

[oleada]

I understand that some people own guns for self protection and hunting - which I completely disagree with on every level but that's the law. However, I don't see how some sort of registry, waiting periods, background checks and limitations on how many guns or types of guns can be owned are unreasonable. You don't need assault weapons to go hunting and you don't need a stockpile of weapons to defend your home. Guns should be hard to get.

 

[BlueRidge]

We are such an instantaneous society. I see there were vigils held many places last night.

If anyone sees information about vigils planned going forward please post about them. I am interested in vigils in the Washington DC area.

 

[antmanb]

Over on this side of the pond - there's a vigil in Soho in London this evening at 7pm, and there will be vigils in Manchester and Birmingham at 10pm tomorrow night as well.

 

[VGThuy]

I'm going to the vigil at Stonewall tonight.

 

[Prancer]

Well they didn't do their job. When all his tirades included a lot of homophobic garbage, that sure as shit is falling through the cracks in my book...

What would you consider their job in this case? Lots of people rant and rave and hold ideas that others find reprehensible, but they don't do anything illegal. What should be done with them?

In the past, Islamic jihadists were often foiled because they talked within their community and others within the community would tell the police. Knowing this, many of these radical types no longer associate with a community and they keep their mouths shut around everyone else. They do not go to the mosque, they do not argue with other Muslims, they do not expose themselves.

 

[allezfred]

There will be a vigil in Dublin tonight at 6:45pm. A book of condolence has also been opened by the Lord Mayor.

 

[BlueRidge]

I found a listing for vigils across the US here http://www.weareorlando.org/

so far none in DC or VA

 

[skatesindreams]

The culprit in this case seems to have been a chameleon; changing his behavior/beliefs depending on who he was with.
This, according to multiple interviews with those with whom he associated, over a period of years.

 

[genevieve]

"In retrospect Sandy Hook marked the end of the US gun control debate. Once America decided killing children was bearable, it was over."

With respect, that is really not a fair way to put it. I own a gun, and I promise you, I do not believe that killing children is in any way "bearable." I also promise you that (apart from practice) my gun is never going to be used for anything except to defend myself against an attacker.

Where are the responsible gun owners demanding a ban on assault rifles? How is there not a coalition within the NRA demanding change about gun access? Is there one and it just doesn't get press?

I went to the vigil in Seattle last night and I'm still shattered this morning.

 

[BlueRidge]

I went to the vigil in Seattle last night and I'm still shattered this morning.

(((non-hug equivalent)))

 

[skatesindreams]

(((non-hug equivalent)))

Joining in.

 

[TOADS]

What would you consider their job in this case? Lots of people rant and rave and hold ideas that others find reprehensible, but they don't do anything illegal. What should be done with them?.

But this was part of a long pattern of bad behavior. Twenty years ago most rant and ravers never went beyond that point. In the last 10 years it seems that more rant and ravers eventually went to carry out their deeds. This guy should have been kept on a watch list which might have prevented him from purchasing the weapons two weeks ago he used.

 

[skategal]

There is a vigil in Halifax, NS (Canada) tonight.

 

[topaz]

Milwaukee's Pridefest was this weekend(I didn't go this year, too busy with my garden). But they did a special tribute on Saturday.

 

[Wyliefan]

Where are the responsible gun owners demanding a ban on assault rifles? How is there not a coalition within the NRA demanding change about gun access? Is there one and it just doesn't get press?

I went to the vigil in Seattle last night and I'm still shattered this morning.

There may be, I don't know. I'm not really up on the inner workings of the NRA. I wasn't trying to start a gun control debate, merely trying to clear myself and others of the heinous charge of deciding that killing children is bearable.

Seconding BlueRidge's *non-hug equivalent.* That vigil must have been heartwrenching.

 

[icie]

What stinks it that a person can be on the "no fly list" in the US & many on that list are still able to purchase guns.

 

[victorskid]

There was a vigial here in Ottawa last evening, at our Human Rights Memorial. The Mayor has ordered the rainbow flag to be flown near that memorial through Thursday.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/vigil-ottawa-orlando-shooting-1.3631710