Mass Shooting at LGBT Nightclub in Orlando

[Debbie S]

No, focus on the people killed and that this was a LGBT hate crime.

I think that is what people are doing. But if you want the news to report all the facts, you can't ignore the shooter's ties to radical Islam and what role that played in his hateful actions. ISIS is an equal-opportunity hate group - they hate gays as a group just as much as they hate Jews, Christians, Westerners, etc as distinct groups - we're all infidels. Yes, we should talk about LGBT hate/prejudice and access to guns (but given this guy worked as a security guard, he likely had access to a gun (although not likely an assault rifle) as part of his job) but we also need to talk about radical Islam and U.S. residents with ties to Islamic terror groups. Each issue is not mutually exclusive.

 

[skatesindreams]

Hate is hate, regardless of the religion that inspires it.

Amen!

 

[ballettmaus]

It annoys me that people want it classified as Islamic terrorism just so they can justify their hatred of Muslims. Maybe he was a symapthizer of ISIS but ISIS has not claimed responsibility and sympathizing doesn't make him part of it. It sounds like the act wasn't brought on by an ideology but pure hatred. And, in my opinion, that's what it is. An act of terror committed out of hatred. And I think the only other thing which matters is that he shouldn't have had access to the kind of weapon he had access to. Everything else is just irrelevant.

 

[Spun Silver]

I am not sure I understand why so many here insisted this was a hate crime INSTEAD of an act of terrorism. Could not both be true?

It is now known that the killer identified himself with ISIS immediately before the shootings.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/12/us/orlando-nightclub-shooting/index.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...Florida-shoots-20-people-taking-hostages.html

ISIS is known for its brutal executions of gays, as were (are?) the Taliban.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/isis-persecution-gay-men-murder-lgbt-muslim-society/

Unrelated to ISIS, AFAIK, an imam who was a guest speaker at an Islamic Center in Orlando this past April called for the execution of homosexuals, saying that for the sake of "compassion," "let's get rid of them."
https://pjmedia.com/homeland-securi...olf-terrorist-previously-investigated-by-fbi/

I am not sure if there is a desire to downplay the extent of homophobia in both mainstream and radical Islam.

As of now it seems that this attack was an act of ISIS-related terrorism that specifically targeted the gay community, and so can also be considered a hate crime... but not a hate crime *rather than* terrorism.

 

[ballettmaus]

I think that is what people are doing. But if you want the news to report all the facts, you can't ignore the shooter's ties to radical Islam and what role that played in his hateful actions. ISIS is an equal-opportunity hate group - they hate gays as a group just as much as they hate Jews, Christians, Westerners, etc as distinct groups - we're all infidels. Yes, we should talk about LGBT hate/prejudice and access to guns (but given this guy worked as a security guard, he likely had access to a gun (although not likely an assault rifle) as part of his job) but we also need to talk about radical Islam and U.S. residents with ties to Islamic terror groups. Each issue is not mutually exclusive.

I agree that US citizens with ties to radical Islam should not be ignored but I'm not sure if it should be talked about in connection with this shooting. To me, it sounds as if the shooter would have sympathized with any group who hated gays. ISIS was probably just the most convenient for him. To me it sounds like he hated gays first and found the group which matched his hate afterwards and I believe his hate and access to military grade weapons are more pressing that the shooter being a sympathizer of ISIS.

 

[Spun Silver]

It annoys me that people want it classified as Islamic terrorism just so they can justify their hatred of Muslims.

That is ridiculous and stupid. If it is Islamic terrorism, as it now appears, "people" want to classify it as such in order to get a better handle on the terrorists -- i.e., who and where they are and how they operate -- so as better to be able to stop them.

 

[skatesindreams]

I'm sure that terrorist organizations will "take credit" for this, whether they really organized it, or not.
That is often their pattern.

 

[rjblue]

ISIS related terrorism is funded by, or organized by, or committed by members of ISIS.

Lots of groups hate the LGBT community enough to kill. When a gay person is beaten to death by a job of evangelical teenagers, we don't call it Christian terrorism.

The way this is being covered is unbelievably upsetting.

 

[Wyliefan]

It annoys me that people want it classified as Islamic terrorism just so they can justify their hatred of Muslims. Maybe he was a symapthizer of ISIS but ISIS has not claimed responsibility and sympathizing doesn't make him part of it. It sounds like the act wasn't brought on by an ideology but pure hatred. And, in my opinion, that's what it is. An act of terror committed out of hatred. And I think the only other thing which matters is that he shouldn't have had access to the kind of weapon he had access to. Everything else is just irrelevant.

ISIS has indeed claimed responsibility. Reuters is reporting it.

Look, no sane and reasonable person wants Muslims to suffer for this. (Trump does, but he's neither sane nor reasonable.) But we get absolutely nowhere by pretending that the killer was not driven by a sick, twisted, radicalized ideology when he stated in so many words that he was. If a radical version of ANY religion calls for killing gay people, or any other group of people, we have got to be able to talk about it and why it's bad. And we can do it without demonizing all members of that religion.

If we don't, if we insist on brushing it under the rug, well, that's how we end up with despicable pigs like Trump, demonizing EVERYONE and bragging that they're the only ones not scared to speak. There has to be a rational happy medium between Trumpism and calling every killer a mentally ill lone wolf, no matter what he believes or says or does.

End of rant.

 

[MsZem]

I think that is what people are doing. But if you want the news to report all the facts, you can't ignore the shooter's ties to radical Islam and what role that played in his hateful actions. ISIS is an equal-opportunity hate group - they hate gays as a group just as much as they hate Jews, Christians, Westerners, etc as distinct groups - we're all infidels. Yes, we should talk about LGBT hate/prejudice and access to guns (but given this guy worked as a security guard, he likely had access to a gun (although not likely an assault rifle) as part of his job) but we also need to talk about radical Islam and U.S. residents with ties to Islamic terror groups. Each issue is not mutually exclusive.

At last summer's Jerusalem Pride, an ultraorthodox Jewish man stabbed several people, killing a 16 year old girl. As I wrote earlier, hateful anti-LGBT rhetoric is not exclusive to ISIS or other Islamist groups; neither are hate crimes against LGBT people.

If the shooter had any concrete ties to radical Islamist groups, I imagine that it will come up during the investigation. But the fact that the people murdered were at an LGBT club is clear right now, and it also seems pretty clear that this was not a randomly chosen target.

I hope that some of the people who are condemning this attack will reflect on how they have treated LGBT people, individually and as a group, and think about how they can do better.

 

[ballettmaus]

That is ridiculous and stupid. If it is Islamic terrorism, as it now appears, "people" want to classify it as such in order to get a better handle on the terrorists -- i.e., who and where they are and how they operate -- so as better to be able to stop them.

Well, it may be a language thing - you wrote in your post that the shooter was reported to have identified himself to be with ISIS. In Germany, they reported that as the shooter having been an ISIS sympathizer. Which means that he liked what the group does but is not part of the group and that he didn't commit the crime in the name of ISIS. He may have done it because he was an admirer but the way they report it in Germany, would mean that he acted by himself. I don't think that being Muslim and being a sympathizer of ISIS makes it Islamic terrorism. To me, right now, it's terrorism because he wanted to instill fear and it's a hate crime because he, apparently, hated gays.

 

[Allskate]

I think there are very few people who are unwilling to look at the motivation of the killer. And that includes the President. But, the reality is that this just happened overnight and it is prudent for officials to wait for information before explicitly stating the precise cause, especially if laying blame before proof might unnecessarily incite more hatred or elevate the status of a terrorist group.

Obama called this an act of terror and hate and that he does not yet know the exact motivations of the killer. That seemed to me like a pretty accurate statement of what he knew at the time of the statement. I did not hear of ISIS claiming responsibility until after his statement. And we'll see just exactly how ISIS was responsible. It may be that ISIS planned it. It may be that ISIS inspired it. We cannot know. I get that people are angry and they don't want to be patient and just want to vent at their favorite targets. But it doesn't help.

 

[skatesindreams]

The local channel I've been watching in Orlando has been researching attitudes/acts of hatred toward the LGBTQ community within Islam.
What they have found is not encouraging.

 

[ballettmaus]

ISIS has indeed claimed responsibility. Reuters is reporting it.

Look, no sane and reasonable person wants Muslims to suffer for this. (Trump does, but he's neither sane nor reasonable.) But we get absolutely nowhere by pretending that the killer was not driven by a sick, twisted, radicalized ideology when he stated in so many words that he was. If a radical version of ANY religion calls for killing gay people, or any other group of people, we have got to be able to talk about it and why it's bad. And we can do it without demonizing all members of that religion.

I hadn't heard that ISIS claimed responsibility. I also have not heard anything other than he hated gays. If it was indeed because of a twisted ideology that a radical view of the Islam brought on then it was Islamic terrorism. I just think that this close after the shooting there is a lot of information floating around and facts need to be separated from speculation and it's better to be cautious and call it terrorism now and Islamic terrorism when there is definite proof than call it Islamic terrorism now and then having to backtrack.
Unfortunately though, I think that when it comes to Islam, people find it harder to not demonize all members of the religion. Yes, we can't ignore Islamic terrorism, but we also can't ignore any other terrorism and in the end, I think what matters most is not what kind of terrorism it was - because all terror is ultimately the same - but to make people aware of the general hatred against gays by, as you said, all radical versions of religions.

 

[Wyliefan]

There are some people who will seize any excuse to demonize any religion. As an evangelical Christian, I'm well aware of this. (I'm not trying to whine about it, I'm just stating facts.) They'll keep doing it no matter what. All the more reason for reasonable people to make every effort to take a more thoughtful, nuanced approach.

 

[Cachoo]

I think what captured my attention is the killer's father said the killer was enraged when he saw two men kissing in Miami. I fear his hate led him to ISIS rather than ISIS causing him to hate. I guess it doesn't matter: Murder is murder. The saddest thing, besides the loss of these people, is that I'm not even shocked.

 

[WildRose]

Link to Reuters report: ISIS claims responsibility
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-florida-shooting-claim-idUSKCN0YY0VU

 

[Allskate]

There are some people who will seize any excuse to demonize any religion. As an evangelical Christian, I'm well aware of this. (I'm not trying to whine about it, I'm just stating facts.) They'll keep doing it no matter what. All the more reason for reasonable people to make every effort to take a more thoughtful, nuanced approach.

I agree. When the KKK relies on Christianity to support its hate crimes, it should not be seen as reflective of all Christians. When South African built its apartheid system on the Dutch Reformed Church's plans, it was not called a Christian state. There is no problem with factually stating when a particular terrorist group (domestic or foreign) is responsible for hate crimes or what their motives are, but let's know the facts first and let's be careful who we demonize and who we incite.

ETA: According to CNN, ISIS itself has not taken responsibility for the attack. Someone on social media told a news agency (ISIS affiliated) that he was an ISIS fighter.

 

[oleada]

As per the the press conference, the suspect has been investigated twice before by the FBI due to possible links to terrorism but nothing could be substantiated. The guns were purchased legally.

And from the human scum files

http://www.chron.com/news/article/Texas-Lt-Governor-Dan-Patrick-tweets-reap-what-8076147.php

A "reap what you sow" tweet from Texas Lt. Governor Dan Patrick that went out hours after approximately 50 people were killed at a Florida LGBT nightclub has been deleted amid backlash.

At precisely 7 a.m. Sunday Dan Patrick tweeted a photo with the words of Galatians 6:7. The verse reads, "Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows."

 

[Nomad]

...

And from the human scum files

http://www.chron.com/news/article/Texas-Lt-Governor-Dan-Patrick-tweets-reap-what-8076147.php

Those words apply to Dan Patrick as well.

 

[Wyliefan]

That was a horrid thing to do.

 

[AYS]

Was just about to post about that POS Patrick @oleada Tweet was scheduled before they knew about the shooting my ass.

Welcome to retirement buddy. At least I certainly hope so.

 

[Vash01]

President Obama emphasizing the fact that this was an attack on the LGBT community.

And emphasizing how easy it is for people to get their hands on guns.

President Obama said this was a terrorist act and a hate attack. He was very controlled in his statement. He stuck to the facts but it was easy to see that he was seething that this has happened.

 

[skatesindreams]

Those words apply to Dan Patrick as well.

His words/actions are beneath contempt.

 

[Vash01]

It annoys me that people want it classified as Islamic terrorism just so they can justify their hatred of Muslims. Maybe he was a symapthizer of ISIS but ISIS has not claimed responsibility and sympathizing doesn't make him part of it. It sounds like the act wasn't brought on by an ideology but pure hatred. And, in my opinion, that's what it is. An act of terror committed out of hatred. And I think the only other thing which matters is that he shouldn't have had access to the kind of weapon he had access to. Everything else is just irrelevant.

According to the networks, before the attack he called 911 and pledged his allegiance to ISIS. They don't know if he was acting on his own or through ISIS. Regardless it is terrorism and of course a hate crime.

 

[nlloyd]

ISIS is an equal-opportunity hate group - they hate gays as a group just as much as they hate Jews, Christians, Westerners, etc as distinct groups - we're all infidels.

That may be true, but gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and transgender people are also equal opportunity targets. Extreme Christians, extreme Jewish people, extreme Muslims and those with no religious affiliation have enacted hate-crimes against LGBTQ people. Before the news came out that the shooter had ties to extreme Islam, I would have been hard pushed to predict who was responsible. There were so many possible candidates. All religious communities as well as non-religious communities need to review their attitudes to LGBTQ people.

In this particular case, there seems to be a connection between an LGBTQ hate crime, extreme Islam, and ISIS, but this is only one of many possible configurations, and the exact relationship between the three factors needs to be carefully analysed. The weight of each factor and the exact way in which it intersected with the others needs to be considered. It is all too easy to conflate them and to come up with a reductive analysis that helps no-one.

 

[LilJen]

I've been back in the US less than 24 hours, and the gun violence all over the news has been a shock to the system.

There are no words to describe this. Or the senseless assassination of Christina Grimmie, which happened a few miles away a few days ago.

What the hell is wrong with America?

I've given up believing anything or anyone will change the attitude toward gun culture in this country. How many people will die senselessly because of it?

WHEN will we get an assault rifle ban back in place? Assault rifles are appropriate for the MILITARY, nobody else.

 

[oleada]

The ex-wife of the shooter spoke anonymously with the Washington Post and states that he was physically abusive.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...8-11e6-8ff7-7b6c1998b7a0_story.html?tid=sm_tw

“He was not a stable person,” said the ex-wife, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because she feared for her safety in the wake of the mass shooting. “He beat me. He would just come home and start beating me up because the laundry wasn’t finished or something like that.”

 

[Tinami Amori]

something is VERY wrong with people who want to hurt others who do not pose them any harm...

 

[ballettmaus]

There are some people who will seize any excuse to demonize any religion. As an evangelical Christian, I'm well aware of this. (I'm not trying to whine about it, I'm just stating facts.) They'll keep doing it no matter what. All the more reason for reasonable people to make every effort to take a more thoughtful, nuanced approach.

I agree. It just seems that it happens more when it concerns Muslims. I mean, why are people calling for it to be called Islamic terrorism especially this early? Why does it matter to them whether it was Islamic terrorism or Christian terrorism? Isn't it enough that it was terrorism and that it was a hate crime?
And I've yet to hear for someone calling for something to be classified as Christian terrorism.

I believe that someone needs to investigate if this was ISIS, if the shooter was part of ISIS, and generally, the shooter's ties to ISIS and if he has ties to ISIS and ISIS was behind it, why he was able to commit the crime. There's a lot that needs to be investigated on that front.
However, I think that focusing on the Islamic bit of the terrorism actually takes away from what I currently consider should be more prominent. And that is that this man was, apparently, on a watch-list and he was still able to buy a military grade gun legally and then commit an act of terrorism, a hate crime.