IAAF and Russian Athletics Anti-Doping Corruption Review

[poths]

Tomorrow marks a grave day in athletics, but a new day for clean sport. A significant report will be released by WADA's Dick Pound that makes FIFA corruption look low level. Early indications allude to an Olympic ban for Russia in athletics...and potentially all sports. There is further evidence to suggest a government sponsored widespread systematic doping regime including Winter sports in the run up to Sochi and clear evidence of bribery, where officials have paid for positive tests to be covered and a discussion on "bought" results. The sports in which results could be bought are limited, and obviously include Figure skating. Again, this will not be a Mickey Mouse report, or an undercover investigation, this is WADA and they annul, expel, demote to their hearts content.

Whilst the corruption is clearly endemic and not limited to Russia, it is an interesting country to start with and I just have a feeling that the Sochi results will come to play here, sooner rather than later.

http://mediarelations.uwo.ca/2015/1...-russian-iaaf-doping-scandal-nov-9-in-geneva/

https://mobile.twitter.com/ringsau/status/663321015703859200

 

[Perky Shae Lynn]

It is not wise to make such claims until actual evidence is presented. In Sotnikova's case, or any other case. It is libel, defamation, etc. until we know otherwise. Posting slanderous claims about a specific person or event is a slippery slope, poths. The title of your thread is indeed slanderous.

 

[poths]

Perky.

 

[MsZem]

That report should be both and , I think.

The title does not seem truly libelous, as it asks a question rather than stating something as fact. Poths is being click-baity I agree that we should tread carefully until we know the particulars, but I too would not be surprised to see stuff about Sochi. Though not necessarily about Sotnikova's OGM; much as I preferred Kostner, I don't think that the result was indefensible.

 

[poths]

That report should be both and , I think.

The title does not seem truly libelous, as it asks a question rather than stating something as fact. Poths is being click-baity I agree that we should tread carefully until we know the particulars, but I too would not be surprised to see stuff about Sochi. Though not necessarily about Sotnikova's OGM; much as I preferred Kostner, I don't think that the result was indefensible.

Click baits? I'm offended. I think Dick Pound is utterly p*ssed off and ready to lay down severe punishments. I'm really interested in whether or not a national ban will be implemented and how far reaching the report is. I fully expect it to have ripples that will reach right into skating and Sochi in particular. I wouldn't be surprised to uncover a drug regime in this sport either. Love to see corruption uncovered.

 

[Perky Shae Lynn]

People think that because it's internet that can say whatever they want. I get the idea of click-bait, etc. Post the article, discuss it - clearly it is more then discussion-worthy. But until there is actual prove, don't drag a potentially innocent person through the mud.

 

[ninjapirate]

The title does not seem truly libelous, as it asks a question rather than stating something as fact

When did you stop beating your wife?

On one hand I find the title utterly ridiculous and stupid... and on the other hand I think Plushenko may have doped before and were he to skate in 2018 there is very little chance it would be clean. I've been meaning to say this ever since he started making rather confident remarks about skating in 2018 and I know I'm not the only one to think this because Dave Lease before Skate America made a remark about it.

 

[MsZem]

When did you stop beating your wife?

On one hand I find the title utterly ridiculous and stupid... and on the other hand I think Plushenko may have doped before and were he to skate in 2018 there is very little chance it would be clean. I've been meaning to say this ever since he started making rather confident remarks about skating in 2018 and I know I'm not the only one to think this because Dave Lease before Skate America made a remark about it.

"Did something happen" is not the same as "when did something happen".

If Plushenko needed anything, I am sure he could have gotten a therapeutic use clearance. Suggesting that he was/will dope actually is libelous, even if Dave Lease said so first.

 

[Perky Shae Lynn]

"Did something happen" is not the same as "when did something happen".

So you DID beat your wife?

 

[Coco]

Funny you should bring this up because I'm pretty sure Yuna Kim's marked increase in PCS between 2009 4CC's and 2009 Worlds, if not paid for explicitly, was very inorganic if not downright hinky.

If she wanted to win Sochi so bad she could have done a 7th triple or maxed out her spins. I'm over it.

 

[BlueRidge]

Funny you should bring this up because I'm pretty sure Yuna Kim's marked increase in PCS between 2009 4CC's and 2009 Worlds, if not paid for explicitly, was very inorganic if not downright hinky.

If she wanted to win Sochi so bad she could have done a 7th triple or maxed out her spins. I'm over it.

This thread has nothing to do with Yuna Kim unless you think poths is on her payroll or something. She's not making the accusations so why come here just to take the opportunity to take her down? I'm not particuarly interestd in rumors but if you don't like them attack the rumors not Yu Na Kim. Although if you think its legit to claim Kim didn't deserve her scores then you shouldn't care about wild claims about the 2014 Olys either. Same difference.

 

[VGThuy]

It is not wise to make such claims until actual evidence is presented. In Sotnikova's case, or any other case. It is libel, defamation, etc. until we know otherwise. Posting slanderous claims about a specific person or event is a slippery slope, poths. The title of your thread is indeed slanderous.

If it's anything, it's libelous, not slanderous . I don't think it's either of those things, but it depends on the country and how they feel about internet postings, whether they are plaintiff-friendly, and how they feel about fair game discussions about public figures, among other things.

Anyway, what Poths was implying or insinuating wasn't the nicest thing one could say about Sotnikova's win (I don't think Poths said anything about Sotnikova herself), but I don't think this forum was ever a place where posters told other posts not to post something like this. I mean, people have discussed and still discuss deals between federations and weird judging. It's pretty common actually. I mean during Sochi, that L'Equipe article talked about Davis/White benefitting over Virtue/Moir from some sort of RSFS/USFS deal, and many V/M fans latched on to that article as if it was the gospel. Frank Carroll still talks about Linda and the German-speaking judges during practice. And, don't we have this emoticon? It was made in jest, but I don't doubt that some people think it's grounded in truth. It's practically the same thing Poths asked but in visual form.

 

[miki88]

I read articles referring to this report, and the accusations seem to concentrate mainly around doping. I doubt it will affect figure skating much, since it's one of those sports that one can't excel merely through stamina and strength. Sochi's results were highly debatable due to the fact that the top 3 ladies skated clean performances (something that is very rare). Adelina was given a large home ground boost, but based on what I read online leading up to Sochi, it wasn't as if people didn't foresee something similar to happen if the Russian skaters delivered in Sochi.

 

[rfisher]

Well, if Adelina's win was paid for, was V/T's? Was the team medal paid for? Was I/K's bronze or S/K's silver? The Russians didn't spend their money well in other sports since they didn't do all that well in the alpine events including biathalon which is a Russian stand by. Especially, since the Russian fed left her off the team event because they felt Lipnitskia would do better. So, whose medals did they buy?

 

[Coco]

This thread has nothing to do with Yuna Kim unless you think poths is on her payroll or something. She's not making the accusations so why come here just to take the opportunity to take her down? I'm not particuarly interestd in rumors but if you don't like them attack the rumors not Yu Na Kim.

This is a thread about marks. There's no aspersions cast toward Kim in my post, only her marks and the way they, much like Sotnikova's, took a deliberate leap upwards.

The op insinuates that Sotnikova's increase was somehow unprecedented. It's totally relevant to bring up another time when we saw a similar increase.

 

[Vagabond]

If it's anything, it's libelous, not slanderous . I don't think it's either of those things, but it depends on the country and how they feel about internet postings, whether they are plaintiff-friendly, and how they feel about fair game discussions about public figures, among other things.

Like whether it's true, for example.

 

[snoopy]

I read articles referring to this report, and the accusations seem to concentrate mainly around doping. I doubt it will affect figure skating much, since it's one of those sports that one can't excel merely through stamina and strength. Sochi's results were highly debatable due to the fact that the top 3 ladies skated clean performances (something that is very rare). Adelina was given a large home ground boost, but based on what I read online leading up to Sochi, it wasn't as if people didn't foresee something similar to happen if the Russian skaters delivered in Sochi.

Doping would help with stamina and that helps with training. Even if it is not as big of a help in other sports, it helps. And it is sport illegal.

 

[Lys]

When did you stop beating your wife?

On one hand I find the title utterly ridiculous and stupid... and on the other hand I think Plushenko may have doped before and were he to skate in 2018 there is very little chance it would be clean. I've been meaning to say this ever since he started making rather confident remarks about skating in 2018 and I know I'm not the only one to think this because Dave Lease before Skate America made a remark about it.

Your statement is an unjust calumny on an honorable athlete

 

[MsZem]

Well, if Adelina's win was paid for, was V/T's? Was the team medal paid for? Was I/K's bronze or S/K's silver? The Russians didn't spend their money well in other sports since they didn't do all that well in the alpine events including biathalon which is a Russian stand by. Especially, since the Russian fed left her off the team event because they felt Lipnitskia would do better. So, whose medals did they buy?

Is it possible to fix alpine and biathlon events?

 

[rfisher]

Is it possible to fix alpine and biathlon events?

When scoring is subjective, yes. Snowboarding, for example, is totally subjective and was the source of a lot of complaints when the world medal holder didn't win anything and boarders who barely made the US team won. Even biathalon is subjective scoring. Now, doping may have been an issue, but if the Russians were doping, it didn't work all that well. Maybe they didn't pay enough.

 

[Xela M]

Stupid

 

[Lara]

Even biathalon is subjective scoring.

? AFAIK that's purely a timed event, if you don't hit the target you either have extra time added on or you have to do a penalty loop.

That said it's obviously ripe for doping and there's lots of unfair factors such as weather conditions (ex. hitting wind right when it's your turn to shoot), track conditions during the course of the race, and ski wax preparation (which is where the major nations often have an advantage, though last season Bjordalen got pissed that Norway's skis were worse than Nathan Smith's of Canada) I'm sure there's politics too when determining lineups. Skating may have subjective judging but I do like that the ice itself is basically equal for everyone as long as there's resurfacing.

 

[MsZem]

When scoring is subjective, yes. Snowboarding, for example, is totally subjective and was the source of a lot of complaints when the world medal holder didn't win anything and boarders who barely made the US team won. Even biathalon is subjective scoring. Now, doping may have been an issue, but if the Russians were doping, it didn't work all that well. Maybe they didn't pay enough.

Okay, we're just not on the same page - I was thinking of alpine skiing, which is certainly not subjective. And as Lara noted, while biathlon can be affected by external factors, it's not subjectively scored.

 

[alchemy void]

Wheeeeeeeeeeeee

 

[angelflies]

Well, if Adelina's win was paid for, was V/T's? Was the team medal paid for? Was I/K's bronze or S/K's silver? The Russians didn't spend their money well in other sports since they didn't do all that well in the alpine events including biathalon which is a Russian stand by. Especially, since the Russian fed left her off the team event because they felt Lipnitskia would do better. So, whose medals did they buy?

V/T wouldnt have needed their medal payed for as they were always going to win anyway. Sotnikova that is so far from the case it isnt funny.

I/K's scores were pretty outrageous, they might have deserved the bronze anyway but not by that margin. So if there really were bought medals in figure skating by Russia it is entirely possible theirs was too.

S/K's scores were also completely out of touch with the rest of their careers, even considering they skated extremely well.

 

[lala]

When did you stop beating your wife?

On one hand I find the title utterly ridiculous and stupid... and on the other hand I think Plushenko may have doped before and were he to skate in 2018 there is very little chance it would be clean. I've been meaning to say this ever since he started making rather confident remarks about skating in 2018 and I know I'm not the only one to think this because Dave Lease before Skate America made a remark about it.

OMG! Who the hell is Dave Lease( is he Dave from the skating lesson????) compared Plushenko??? he is a nobody .. From where he takes the liberty to make a remark about it?

He lied about Plushenko in his blog.. He is malice, uninformed, envious, stupid in this case.

 

[SHARPIE]

@poths, had to edit the title. Let me know what better title I can change it to

 

[kwanfan1818]

IIRC the issue with snowboarding was that the judging panel for the Olympics emphasized different criteria and preferences to evaluate style. They weren't inconsistent in applying them, but they favored a different style. It would be as if in figure skating, athletes who used contemporary music with lyrics and had been getting 8's or 9's through Euros in an Olympic year suddenly got 5's or 6's because the judging panel for the Olympics decided to reward only programs set to music written before WWI.

 

[meggonzo]

Dick Pound? [Insert joke here]

 

[alchemy void]

I can be open to the idea that Russia somehow "bought" Sotnikova's gold medal, I love a good scandal like anyone else. This is what I struggle with:

Look at that the protocol from the event. All nine judges must have been "bought" because the GOE and PCS is VERY uniform all the way across. Every judge went into the 9s for PCS.

Sotnikova's PCS
9.50 9.50 9.25 8.75 9.50 9.00 9.50 8.75 8.50
9.25 9.25 8.75 8.50 9.25 9.00 9.50 8.75 8.50
9.75 9.50 9.25 9.00 9.75 9.50 9.75 9.00 9.25
9.75 9.75 9.25 8.75 9.50 9.75 9.75 9.00 9.50
9.75 9.75 9.00 9.25 9.75 9.25 9.75 8.75 9.25

This isn't 6.0 when you would just need a of 5 judges to fix a result. Clearly all 9 judges were on the same page with PCS and GOE. If there were a bloc of 5 or 6 judges, I'd expect to see a lot more disparity in the PCS or GOE...not 8.50 to 9.75.

So if the gold medal was bought for Sotnikova, that would be a minimum of 9 judges + 2 technical controllers + probably the referee? I find it hard to believe 11 or 12 officials could be involved to that extent. If so, major to pulling that off.