Zimmerman suspended for 2 years by U.S. Center for SafeSport

[okokok777]

Of course he’s worse than an idiot- he’s gross. But this situation is not as A to Z outside of his action as people think it is or are basing their attitudes on. You know that you and I have been privy to some of the same information that makes it obvious there are many more questions that have never been addressed, parties that should have been questioned much more than they were, situations that may have happened prior to this, etc.

Oh for sure! I have a few theories about how those factors may have played into the investigation and sanctions. If any of them hold any weight, I would actually understand the Center's decision making even more. I also wasn't a fan of how the articles were written for reasons that I think we discussed before

 

[Prancer]

Eh - I would personally call him a lot worse than an idiot but I'm not sure what pieces of evidences you've seen versus myself.

I've seen some of the evidence and he is definitely much worse than an idiot.

In re: to Silvia, I personally think her sanction was too lenient - especially considering everything that she was being investigated for (both related to this incident and other alleged incidents).

ITA, except when her sanction is looked at relative to Zimmerman's. Coverup aside, I think all mandatory reporters should be slapped pretty hard for failure to report, and clearly that is not the way it goes.

 

[Coco]

I wonder if them being married had anything to do with leniency to one of them. The logic being that a person 'suffers' financial repercussions from sanctions against their spouse.

 

[misskarne]

Frankly, I don't give two shits what supposed "mitigating factors" there are. Dispenza actively encouraged two minor children to solicit a dick pic from an adult, and when the adult gave it, participated in the harassment and cover-up. The first offence alone should be a multi-year ban. Fontana actively participated in - or condoned, which honestly is just as bad - the harassment and bullying and threatening of minor children who had been the victims of sexual abuse. And she knew and didn't report. That should also be a multi-year ban minimum.

What message are these pathetic outcomes sending? Fontana and Dispenza didn't even get a slap on the wrist for their involvement. Hell, IMO, it doesn't even count as a punishment. Both are free to continue working with minor children. They just now know they need to do a better job with the threats and bullying next time, I guess.

Rinks where abuse is rampant are 100% going to be looking at these sentences and saying, okay, we can do this, we just need one fall guy and then everyone else will get probation, we won't lose any money, we won't lose any coaches.

The punishments needed to be big so that they could be deterrent. This is like putting a tiny reflective disc on the road in front of a truck to try and get it to stop or turn around. I'm sure there'll be plenty of shocked-pikachu-face when it becomes apparent that these punishments weren't deterring factors at all.

But you know what outcome I bet there is from these punishments? I bet there are a lot of young abuse victims out there who saw that Dispenza and Fontana can keep coaching and just despairingly cried, "What's the point of saying anything?"

 

[puglover]

The articles I read mention Zimmerman's right to appeal the suspension. One year out from the Olympics, I sure hope that does not mean that he can continue to coach through the appeal process, should he decide to appeal. I totally agree - the punishments need to be so big and so devastating to a career that they act as a real deterrent.

 

[MacMadame]

I wonder if them being married had anything to do with leniency to one of them. The logic being that a person 'suffers' financial repercussions from sanctions against their spouse.

The problem is, since they are married, Zimmerman can go on as before. He can't sit in the Kiss 'n Cry with his athletes or go backstage during a comp. But he can continue showing up to the rink and coaching them and then Fontana can do all the official coach's stuff at comps.

So it's almost like no punishment at all.

 

[okokok777]

Frankly, I don't give two shits what supposed "mitigating factors" there are. Dispenza actively encouraged two minor children to solicit a dick pic from an adult, and when the adult gave it, participated in the harassment and cover-up. The first offence alone should be a multi-year ban. Fontana actively participated in - or condoned, which honestly is just as bad - the harassment and bullying and threatening of minor children who had been the victims of sexual abuse. And she knew and didn't report. That should also be a multi-year ban minimum.

What message are these pathetic outcomes sending? Fontana and Dispenza didn't even get a slap on the wrist for their involvement. Hell, IMO, it doesn't even count as a punishment. Both are free to continue working with minor children. They just now know they need to do a better job with the threats and bullying next time, I guess.

Rinks where abuse is rampant are 100% going to be looking at these sentences and saying, okay, we can do this, we just need one fall guy and then everyone else will get probation, we won't lose any money, we won't lose any coaches.

The punishments needed to be big so that they could be deterrent. This is like putting a tiny reflective disc on the road in front of a truck to try and get it to stop or turn around. I'm sure there'll be plenty of shocked-pikachu-face when it becomes apparent that these punishments weren't deterring factors at all.

But you know what outcome I bet there is from these punishments? I bet there are a lot of young abuse victims out there who saw that Dispenza and Fontana can keep coaching and just despairingly cried, "What's the point of saying anything?"

ITA that the sanctions were way too lenient. I personally think that the Center's current sanctioning guidelines are way too lenient (as I stated in my Callaghan analogy).

My questions are less about my personal opinions on what should've been done but more so about what evidence was available and how that evidence was presented to the Center when they made their decision.

(Once again, my apologies if my responses are too vague. I don't think that John/Silvia should ever be allowed to coach again and that Vinny should've at least gotten a several-year long suspension. The "mitigating factors" plays into how much of the evidence that the Center was able to use in their decision-making)

 

[Rhumba d’Amour]

The problem is, since they are married, Zimmerman can go on as before. He can't sit in the Kiss 'n Cry with his athletes or go backstage during a comp. But he can continue showing up to the rink and coaching them and then Fontana can do all the official coach's stuff at comps.

So it's almost like no punishment at all.

What elite skaters remain with Zimmerman and Fontana in Florida, though? I think M-B Meite may be the only one. James/Cipres are retired, and I think Kevin Aymoz is training in France.
Not that Zimmerman and Fontana should be coaching young, non-competitive skaters either.

 

[okokok777]

What elite skaters remain with Zimmerman and Fontana in Florida, though? I think M-B Meite may be the only one. James/Cipres are retired, and I think Kevin Aymoz is training in France.
Not that Zimmerman and Fontana should be coaching young, non-competitive skaters either.

The last I heard, Aymoz is still being coached by them via Zoom. I assumed that he planned to return to Florida after Worlds but I'm not sure of his future plans.

 

[Orm Irian]

What elite skaters remain with Zimmerman and Fontana in Florida, though? I think M-B Meite may be the only one. James/Cipres are retired, and I think Kevin Aymoz is training in France.
Not that Zimmerman and Fontana should be coaching young, non-competitive skaters either.

I don't think there are any others, but the status of Aymoz and Meite is unclear. Aymoz has been in France since the early days of the pandemic, and hasn't spelled out what his coaching arrangements are there. Meite is back in Europe too, I think - she went over for Challenge Cup and doesn't seem to have gone back because she's on the entry list for Worlds - but hasn't said whether she'll be making any changes from this point though. With Pechalat in charge of the FFSG now there may be less support coming from that direction for Zimmerman and Fontana.

 

[Vagabond]

I wonder if them being married had anything to do with leniency to one of them. The logic being that a person 'suffers' financial repercussions from sanctions against their spouse.

That would be illegal in many jurisdictions because it would discriminate on the basis of marital status. Two married coaches who fail to comply with their duties should not be given preferential treatment over an unmarried coach who does the same things.

 

[MacMadame]

What elite skaters remain with Zimmerman and Fontana in Florida, though? I think M-B Meite may be the only one. James/Cipres are retired, and I think Kevin Aymoz is training in France.

The elite athletes are not the bread and butter of US coaches' business.

 

[misskarne]

With Pechalat in charge of the FFSG now there may be less support coming from that direction for Zimmerman and Fontana.

Unlikely. Pechelat happily accepted support for her presidential bid from Cipres on social media and has supported Roman Polanski previously. And Cipres not only escaped any sanction from the FFSG under her watch, he's actually been hired to coach young pairs skaters at their camps.

So in other words, nothing's changed at the FFSG regarding the support of sexual abusers.

 

[Alilou]

Unlikely. Pechelat happily accepted support for her presidential bid from Cipres on social media and has supported Roman Polanski previously. And Cipres not only escaped any sanction from the FFSG under her watch, he's actually been hired to coach young pairs skaters at their camps.

So in other words, nothing's changed at the FFSG regarding the support of sexual abusers.

I'm not sure this is an accurate portrayal of the circumstances.
Link please (or some corroboration other than you saying so) re him coaching at FFSG pairs camps.
Also it has been spelled out on this board that at the time Natalie was unable to sanction him due to a technicality (can't remember the details but may have been to do with her very new tenure as President). If I can find the exact nature of the issue I'll post it, but I remember for sure that she couldn't sanction him because her hands were tied.

 

[cholla]

And Cipres not only escaped any sanction from the FFSG under her watch, he's actually been hired to coach young pairs skaters at their camps.

This is totally untrue. The last time Ciprès worked with young pair skaters (Hamon/Strekalin) was more than 2 years ago and before the scandal went public. There aren't many young pair skaters in France and they are coached by Claude Thevenard or Mehdi Bouzzine. Ciprès is working as a real estate agent and hasn't been anywhere near French ice for ages as he is clearly not welcome there.

 

[Orm Irian]

This is totally untrue. The last time Ciprès worked with young pair skaters (Hamon/Strekalin) was more than 2 years ago and before the scandal went public. There aren't many young pair skaters in France and they are coached by Claude Thevenard or Mehdi Bouzzine. Ciprès is working as a real estate agent and hasn't been anywhere near French ice for ages as he is clearly not welcome there.

I remember him working with Hamon/Strekalin, and yes, it was ages ago, back when there was some talk about them moving to Zimmerman and Fontana. I follow Cleo and their team account on Instagram and neither she nor they have made a single mention of him since then.

 

[misskarne]

From the official FFSG release (Google Translated): https://www.ffsg.org/Fin-de-carriere-pour-Vanessa-James-et-Morgan-Cipres

The young man (29 years old) has plans to get into real estate and also wants to work on the development of the discipline of couples.

So, apologies, it would seem that I mis-remembered and it wasn't explicit that the FFSG hired him to work with pairs.

But what is known is that Pechelat happily accepted Cipres' support on social media and has supported Polanski in the past, so it stands to reason that really, not a lot has changed.

Especially when they sign off the statement with this:

The French Ice Sports Federation wishes them the best.

Wishing an abuser the best doesn't exactly send a great message.

 

[puglover]

Who knows whether Morgan Cipres has much of a conscience and how he truly feels about what he did. Regardless of what other external penalties should have been applied to him, he killed his own career and that of his partner. Barring injury, I suspect they could still have been very much in the mix for a medal at this next Olympics. Any medals received after this was reported to have happened in the lead up to the 2018 Olympics seem somewhat tainted now. The team has undoubtedly lost many fans worldwide and probably only the most diehard fans remain, or those who follow figure skating every 4 years. Few of us are looking back over their previous skates. In fact, I will never watch a skate of theirs and just enjoy it again. It may not be the consequences many would like but hopefully he realizes what an idiot he was.

 

[PRlady]

Who knows whether Morgan Cipres has much of a conscience and how he truly feels about what he did. Regardless of what other external penalties should have been applied to him, he killed his own career and that of his partner. Barring injury, I suspect they could still have been very much in the mix for a medal at this next Olympics. Any medals received after this was reported to have happened in the lead up to the 2018 Olympics seem somewhat tainted now. The team has undoubtedly lost many fans worldwide and probably only the most diehard fans remain, or those who follow figure skating every 4 years. Few of us are looking back over their previous skates. In fact, I will never watch a skate of theirs and just enjoy it again. It may not be the consequences many would like but hopefully he realizes what an idiot he was.

I was a big fan and their Sounds of Silence at Europeans, the time they delivered perfectly, is one of my favorite LPs to watch. But I won't. And I'm sad and angry about it.

 

[cholla]

I don't think there are any others, but the status of Aymoz and Meite is unclear. Aymoz has been in France since the early days of the *********, and hasn't spelled out what his coaching arrangements are there.

Aymoz is back to his former coach Françoise Bonnard in his hometown, Grenoble.

Meite is back in Europe too, I think - she went over for Challenge Cup and doesn't seem to have gone back because she's on the entry list for Worlds - but hasn't said whether she'll be making any changes from this point though.

She is currently in Grenoble with Françoise Bonnard too, until Worlds.

With Pechalat in charge of the FFSG now there may be less support coming from that direction for Zimmerman and Fontana.

Aymoz has been very vocal about going back to Florida last summer and fall. Then he stopped talking about it. As dancers Wagret/Souquet have been traveling back and forth at least twice since the beginning of the pandem1c, I assume the sanitary situation is not or at least not only the reason for Kevin staying in France. He was still in touch with Fontana during Nationals as he asked me for a link so she could watch the competition. They still have meetings on Zoom, but from a regular basis last summer, it has frayed out to occasional. I think you are pretty right about the FFSG support, it seems it dwindled away.

Edited to add : from French daily sport paper l'Equipe : Zimmerman is going to appeal. The article also says that Z & F are still coaching Meité and Aymoz.

 

[Orm Irian]

Who knows whether Morgan Cipres has much of a conscience and how he truly feels about what he did. Regardless of what other external penalties should have been applied to him, he killed his own career and that of his partner. Barring injury, I suspect they could still have been very much in the mix for a medal at this next Olympics. Any medals received after this was reported to have happened in the lead up to the 2018 Olympics seem somewhat tainted now. The team has undoubtedly lost many fans worldwide and probably only the most diehard fans remain, or those who follow figure skating every 4 years. Few of us are looking back over their previous skates. In fact, I will never watch a skate of theirs and just enjoy it again. It may not be the consequences many would like but hopefully he realizes what an idiot he was.

They could have had a phenomenal legacy in the sport - Savchenko/Massot may have had the big win and the heart-tugging narrative at the last Olympics, but what that Sounds of Silence program did to open up new options in Pairs, not to mention Wicked Games later on, cannot be underestimated, choreographically they were leading the discipline - but because he chose to be a sex criminal, that's all gone now. Too bad, so sad, thems the breaks when you decide it's fine to send dick pics to a child literally half your age and other people attempt to enable you.

Now apparently Fontana is whining in the press about how it's mean and unfair because Zimmerman is a nice person who has kids (so far as I know neither of them has descended to outright 'As a father/mother of daughters...' levels yet, but it's only a matter of time). Protip: neither of you is the victim here. Sit down and shut up.

 

[tony]

Protip: neither of you is the victim here. Sit down and shut up.

I mean, kinda like how skaters want to go to Worlds, other sporting events and many skating events have gone on without issue, and a select group of fans are hellbent on insisting it can't happen?

 

[PairSkater12345]

The elite athletes are not the bread and butter of US coaches' business.

The Elite athletes are the key to attracting the mid level skaters who pay the bills. You don't attract the "breed and butter" students until you get the reputation of getting students to the elite level.

 

[anonymoose_au]

I mean, kinda like how skaters want to go to Worlds, other sporting events and many skating events have gone on without issue, and a select group of fans are hellbent on insisting it can't happen?

That hardly compares, those calling for Worlds to be cancelled or postponed are doing so from care and concern. Everyone in this sorry saga is thinking only of themselves and furthermore continuing to victimise this young girl.

Even if she requested dick pics of her own volition, the response is NOT to send them. If Morgan was a good person he would have ignored the request (I'm on the fence as to whether a person should report the request to a third party in case there's abuse going on in some other part of the girl's life that would have led to her making such a request).

The point is you never ever comply with the request and if you do and for some bizarre reason didn't think it was wrong at the time, you should surely realise so now, apologise unreservedly, take the punishment and perhaps get some counselling to address your issues.

It's pretty horrible that Morgan sees himself as blameless in this and worst of all no-one who is close to him seems willing to call him out on it.

 

[overedge]

From everything I've read Zimmerman and Fontana are generally nice people. That can co-exist at the same time as them showing terrible judgement in participating in enabling and covering up abuse. And being nice people is not a reason to excuse that behaviour.

 

[misskarne]

Abusers are almost always "nice people". That's the whole point.

 

[MacMadame]

The Elite athletes are the key to attracting the mid level skaters who pay the bills. You don't attract the "breed and butter" students until you get the reputation of getting students to the elite level.

This depends very much on where you live. There are way more rinks in the US that have never had an elite skater and the coaches there are doing just fine.

 

[overedge]

"Bread and butter" skaters want a coach that understands their goals and ambitions, and will work with them on that level. If they know they're not going to be an elite-level skater, or they don't want to be one, a coach having elite-level qualifications isn't important. It's nice, but it's not essential.

 

[Orm Irian]

Even if she requested dick pics of her own volition, the response is NOT to send them. ... The point is you never ever comply with the request and if you do and for some bizarre reason didn't think it was wrong at the time, you should surely realise so now, apologise unreservedly, take the punishment and perhaps get some counselling to address your issues.

Exactly this. Speaking with my mandatory reporter hat on for a moment, if a thirteen-year-old kid approaches a twenty-six-year-old adult and requests a picture of their genitals, the twenty-six-year-old adult has exactly three responses to give. They are, in order:

1. No.
2. No, WTF, are you okay?
3. No, and also, just sit there quietly for a minute while I ask for advice about calling this in to the Child Abuse Report Line, because this is developmentally inappropriate and I am very worried about you.

That’s it. No exceptions, no ifs, no ands, no buts. It’s called societal duty of care.

 

[Judy]

That hardly compares, those calling for Worlds to be cancelled or postponed are doing so from care and concern. Everyone in this sorry saga is thinking only of themselves and furthermore continuing to victimise this young girl.

Even if she requested dick pics of her own volition, the response is NOT to send them. If Morgan was a good person he would have ignored the request (I'm on the fence as to whether a person should report the request to a third party in case there's abuse going on in some other part of the girl's life that would have led to her making such a request).

The point is you never ever comply with the request and if you do and for some bizarre reason didn't think it was wrong at the time, you should surely realise so now, apologise unreservedly, take the punishment and perhaps get some counselling to address your issues.

It's pretty horrible that Morgan sees himself as blameless in this and worst of all no-one who is close to him seems willing to call him out on it.

Absolutely true. One is an adult and one is a child.