Why was Candyman not changed?

[Mad for Skating]

Ok. I don't care if people clutch their pearls but it is amusing. I think the program was just fine except it was too fast for them. Their elements are really big and simply take more time to execute. This is why they made mistakes they don't normally do. They were trying to keep up with the music and couldn't. There was nothing wrong with the music. They're adults, not pre-teens. There was nothing wrong with the polka dots. They were just polka dots. They were covered and nothing got in the way of their skates. Evgenia is never going to be able to smolder like Ksenia so trying to do a program that Stolbova/Klimov would do would never be the same. But, there was nothing inherently wrong with Candyman except for the pearl clutching and polka dot haterez. Given the times they won with the program, the judges didn't find it a problem. And given the times they didn't win, there were extenuating circumstances that impacted them (GPF and Olympics the pairs teams were either hearing rumbles about S/K not being able to go or the pressure on the team without them when they really didn't get to go.) I'm willing to cut them some slack.

Very positive, detailed review! I agree with most of your points, and I have a few points of my own to add:

1. The "panty drop" lyrics made me laugh, but I can honestly say it wasn't any more sexually explicit than other programs this season (Virtue/Moir won the Olympics with a definitely R-rated Moulin Rouge and Papadakis/Cizeron were skating to "Shape of You", which includes the lyrics "Last night you were in my room, and now my bed sheets smell like you.") So when the ice dance stans act like they can't believe T/M skated such a "naughty" program, I'm cackling.

2. The polka dots weren't my favorite costumes in the history of skating, but I don't think there's anything intrinsically wrong with polka dotted costumes. Anna Cappellini has had some awesome polka dotted dresses, and let's not forget Valentina Marchei's adorable red polka dot dress from this season's SP. In theory, I think Tarasova/Morozov had all the best-laid plans.

3. I think the concept of Candyman was an unfortunately failed attempt to recreate their "Glam" short program from last season. Fast and energetic worked for them in Glam, so they thought "Let's do the same thing for our Olympic program." Can't fault them for thinking that.

4. Completely agree that T/M would not be able to pull off a S/K program. The two pairs are the exact opposite; T/M are a technically brilliant team who are high school sweethearts, and S/K struggle with technical elements but have this fiery chemistry. Evgenia doesn't have the fiery Carmen smolder, but she has an elegance, a sweetness, and an Old Hollywood beauty that could really sparkle on the ice. I don't want them to turn her into another Ksenia. To me, Evgenia has her own special quality, but the choreographers just haven't found how to express that yet.
(And just to be fair, I don't think Ksenia and Fedor could've skated Candyman any better than T/M did).

5. I'm glad you brought up the stress S/K's Olympic drama brought on T/M. Let's think about it: you dream your whole life of hearing your national anthem and seeing your flag when you win the Olympics, and two months before you go, you're told that's not going to happen. Your coach, who is already having health problems, is in a constant state of stress over if ANY of you are going to pass the IOC's criteria, until like two weeks before the Olympics, when it's confirmed that one of her pairs is NOT going. So your coach is a hot mess, you're competing under a neutral flag even though you've done nothing wrong, and darling Mikhail Kolyada screws up in the team event and it's your job to save Team Russia. Then you're supposed to bring home a medal in a VERY tough pairs competition, and it's your first Olympics. Not to mention, most of the skating world is laughing at your programs. Under the circumstances, I think T/M performed admirably.

I'll admit I still was not a fan of Candyman, but even the best skaters have programs that fall flat, and one program doesn't define a skater for the rest of their career. So fingers crossed that T/M get great programs next season! (I dream they'll work with Moskvina).

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

When you're Russian, apparently, you get a free pass to skate to any old piece of...

A shame, really, because this team are great technicians. With better material, they should be world champions.

 

[caseyedwards]

When you're Russian, apparently, you get a free pass to skate to any old piece of...

A shame, really, because this team are great technicians. With better material, they should be world champions.

There is no free pass for Russians! Several Russian skaters have been attacked by everyone agreeing they have the worst program of the season and then collapsing under the weight of doing the worst program of the season in the most important competion. Everyone says judges aren’t doing their jobs and giving these people zeroes or fives but that’s not their job to judge what a skater is doing but exclusively how they are doing it!!

 

[caseyedwards]

Russian skaters are told what to do. They are bullied into believing that thinking for themselves and going against the tide will hurt them. It only works if they have the support of a substantial majority or key persons. Bad programs were not confined to T/M this season. It seems funny to me though that they generally tend to give stronger programs to weaker pupils and emptier ones to their stronger ones. Hilarious, go figure!

But they aren’t in some kind of bubble! Everyone was telling them even competitors even though it was unusual that they were doing the worst pairs program of all time. It’s very unusual to hear people saying they went to a competitor and say they said they told them to change. Maybe because competitors were telling them they were doing the worst program of all time made them stubborn.

 

[RoseRed]

I think not changing Candyman was a mistake, but not because it was a terrible program (which it was). It was always too fast for them, they struggled with the pace and it seemed as though that led to errors. Maybe the errors would have happened regardless, but they never seemed at all comfortable with it. I would think that you'd want a program you feel comfortable with for the Olympics.

The program wouldn't have been nearly so bad on some other teams (someone with some chemistry, lots of personality and the ability to do someone with a sense of humour) though I don't think it would have been a masterpiece on anyone. Might have been better as a funny ex.

 

[Japanfan]

Number equal 2. Two OGM by the same team. They aren't even close to the Russians. And, Sui/Han have yet to win that OGM and are plagued by injuries. They remain to be seen. Legendary is in the mind of the beholder, but if you look at number of wins, the Russians have that distinction and I don't think any other country will ever catch them.

I agree that legendary is in the mind of beholder. In my mind, S&Z are legendary. And, I fully expect S/H to take the gold in 2022 at home - and have a few more world titles under their belt by that time.

And while there have undeniably been great Russian pairs, there have also been a fair number who are just cookie cutter - trained in the Russian style, but with little personality or individuality.

Also you can't really compare the Russians to the Chinese. The Russians have a long-standing pairs skating tradition that draws upon opera and ballet. Bin Yao built the Chinese pairs school from the ground up, with no tradition to draw upon. When he was put into a pair in the early 80s, he and his partner learned from watching videos. I recall Bin Yao saying that they were so ill-prepared that his partner came out on the ice with coins in her pocket and they spilled on the when he held her up in a lift.

The accomplishments of the Chinese pairs subsequent to Bin Yao launching his school in the 80s are nothing short of remarkable IMO. Keep in mind that for a time Chinese pairs weren't even allowed to consult with experts from outside of China or skate to non-Chinese music.

I agree with you that no one will ever rival the Russians in terms of World and Olympic medals. But that doesn't really mean a lot because for many years no one could compete with them. That has since changed. Starting at least with S&P vs B&S. I most certainly don't want to beat that old horse to death again, but they could compete with B&S. You can argue politics as you like (as many have), but the Russians politic as well.

The view that if a pair is Russian they are automatically better than every single non-Russian pair is outdated. Russia is no longer the rightful home for the OGM in pairs, as has been said in the past (IIRC by TT, although I could be wrong about that). Aliona S. and partners have had something to say about that, not only the Chinese.

 

[Japanfan]

I have to disagree with this. B&S, K&D, T&M, V&T competed and won world and/or Olympic golds in the last two decades. IMO B&S were the best pair- better than S&Z- and V&T were the top pair when they competed, and better than the Chinese pairs of their time. T&M were a great pair who did not overemote and did not deserve the hateful comments on fsu. Russian pairs no longer dominate the way they did for four decades, because others have caught up, but I don't believe that the Chinese pairs totally own the top spot the way Russian pairs did. When it comes to the basics of pairs skating, Russian pairs are still the best.

We can disagree. I don't think B&S were a better pair than S/Z overall - in the earlier part of S/Z's career, they were. It took a lot of time for S/Z to evolve into a legendary team. I remember thinking I would have given them the win over B/S at 1999 Worlds when they skated a clean powerful long IIRC. But I know I was in a minority.

'Did' is the operative word in 'Russian pairs did'. Noone will totally own the top spot long-term the way the Russian pairs used to because they now have some competition (in the next quad I don't think it will come only from the Chinese). There was no Russian pair on the Olympic podium in either 2010 or 2018. It's a sign that the times are changing.

However, some pairs may own the top spot for a few years. I expect that will be S/H in the next Olympic cycle.

However, in this day and age, that classic Russian line, speed, technique (huge throws where the man doesn’t have to jump and look like he’s throwing a big sack of potatoes), lifts that don’t hurt my eyes, the cleanliness of movement, etc. has been unmatched by any other pairs school.

I love the explosiveness of the Chinese pair throws. I don't notice the man because my eyes are always on the lady.

And as I've said, I find the classic Russian style to just be cookie cutter for some skaters. As such, woefully lacking in personality. But I do appreciate the style when done to perfection. I did love M/D and to a lesser extent, G/G.

It is just not the only style that I like.

Tarosova/Morosov aren’t the greatest Russian pairs, but they really do have that line, cleanliness, and classic technique down that other pairs don’t have and their SP, though some thought was emotionally distant, brought their strengths to the forefront in a way that their LP brought their weaknesses to the forefront. Plus after experiencing Totmianina/Marinin’s dominance, no pair is too emotionally distant and disconnected from the music to me.

T/M are a good example. Even though I thought their unison was amazing, I found them about as exciting to watch as paint drying. I also found Shiskova and Naumov very boring.

Russian skaters are told what to do.

I think this may be true, and one of the reasons for cookie-cutter pairs. It is a case of if it works, don't fix it. And I don't necessarily I disagree with that. Not every pair taught in the classic Russian will exalt the style, but eventually a pair will come along for whom it is perfect.

 

[Simone411]

Well, since this was the question asked in the title of the thread, here's my answer. Candyman wasn't changed because apparently T/M liked their program and they won with it. I guess it would stand to reason that they might have changed the program and music if they hadn't won a Worlds Silver Medal and all their other medals, too.

That's just like Ashley winning a Silver Medal at Worlds with Moulin Rouge, and V/M winning a Gold Medal at the Olympics with Moulin Rouge.

And the most simplest answer is that Candyman wasn't changed because T/M liked it, and most people/skaters stick with what they like especially when it's working for them.

 

[RoseRed]

Well, since this was the question asked in the title of the thread, here's my answer. Candyman wasn't changed because apparently T/M liked their program and they won with it. I guess it would stand to reason that they might have changed the program and music if they hadn't won a Worlds Silver Medal and all their other medals, too.

That's just like Ashley winning a Silver Medal at Worlds with Moulin Rouge, and V/M winning a Gold Medal at the Olympics with Moulin Rouge.

And the most simplest answer is that Candyman wasn't changed because T/M liked it, and most people/skaters stick with what they like especially when it's working for them.

Except not at all really? One, whether or not people like the Moulin Rouge! music, there's no comparison to the Candyman disaster because the MR program actually suited V/M and played to their strengths. They could play those characters convincingly. T/M couldn't sell Candyman at all which is why it was so bad. Two, V/M did change the program substantially, including music edit, part way through the season.

And the idea that they were winning with it, well, they didn't when it mattered most. I mean, there are plenty of reasons they may have made those mistakes, and who knows whether a different program would have made the difference. Very possibly not. But still, they lost an Olympic medal by 5.23, and they always looked uncomfortable with the pace of the program, which could possibly have contributed to those very costly mistakes.

And anyways, if they liked it so much, I wish they'd been able to show that at all. Because I could never tell.

 

[VGThuy]

I think the reason Tarasova/Morosov’s SP hit me hard is because it’s so noticeable how most pairs don’t even work on cleanliness of line anymore. Even some of the most popular pairs today are messy. T/M, in the SP, reminded me of what gorgeous pair technique is supposed to look like. And I don’t dislike the other pairs but there is a difference and if T/M ever get it together and bridge the emotion gap, I think they will be a top team and will deserve to be one just based on technical skill and attention to detail. I also think the Russians bridged the gap of big throws, and they don’t rely on the man to hurl himself up but do the harder thing and keep the man’s form aesthetically pleasing and have his boots stay on the ice.

 

[Mad for Skating]

I think the reason Tarasova/Morosov’s SP hit me hard is because it’s so noticeable how most pairs don’t even work on cleanliness of line anymore. Even some of the most popular pairs today are messy. T/M, in the SP, reminded me of what gorgeous pair technique is supposed to look like. And I don’t dislike the other pairs but there is a difference and if T/M ever get it together and bridge the emotion gap, I think they will be a top team and will deserve to be one just based on technical skill and attention to detail. I also think the Russians bridged the gap of big throws, and they don’t rely on the man to hurl himself up but do the harder thing and keep the man’s form aesthetically pleasing and have his boots stay on the ice.

Yes! The SP played to all their strengths, which is why Candyman was such a disappointment for me. They have everything it takes, and if they can be properly presented, they can do anything. Cinderella just needs her fairy godmother to turn the rags into a ball gown.

 

[Vash01]

I never cared for pairs like S&Z, S&P that depended solely over emoting, while neglecting the finer points of pairs skating, like lines and extensions, posture, unison while doing difficult skating moves. S&Z had big elements but they did not maintain lines or posture. Even at their best their basic skating was not as good as the top Russian pairs. I liked and resoected S&Z for the progress they made over the years but I never felt that they were a complete package, which IMO should involve the finer points that I mentioned earlier. I was never emotionally involved with them, the way I was with G&G, B&S, M&D.

I loved Totmianina-Marinin's technical perfection and did not find them boring except in their Cotton Club LP. IMO it was a wrong choice for them, just like Candyman was for the new T&M. Both were winning medals so there was no pressure on them to make a change. I still believe that Tar-Mor genuinely liked their Candyman program.

My preference is for technical perfection, attention to detail, and interpreting the music through the skating rather than contorting the facial muscles. Clean lines, extensions, unison have been sacrificed in pairs skating ever since the high throws and splits of the Chinese pairs became more popular.

Musical interpretation certainly involves emotion but it is to be integrated with superb technique. New T&M tried to improve in that but it was not successful. It was forced and it didn't work but they won some competitions due to their technical superiority. They were more successful in their SP by sticking to their strengths, rather than creating artificial emotion.

 

[Aussie Willy]

T&M decided they needed to throw out fodder for FSU fans to go apesh*t over. Because that is what skating is all about.

 

[Kateri]

And just to be fair, I don't think Ksenia and Fedor could've skated Candyman any better than T/M did

I just wanna thank you for this mental image, it's gonna keep me laughing all summer long. Or having nightmares, I can't decide.

 

[Mad for Skating]

I just wanna thank you for this mental image, it's gonna keep me laughing all summer long. Or having nightmares, I can't decide.

Hahaha. There is some straw even Ksenia and Fedor can't turn into gold...

 

[Kateri]

Hahaha. There is some straw even Ksenia and Fedor can't turn into gold...

The look on her face would be gold, though...

 

[MAXSwagg]

I don’t know what cookie cutter Russian pairs means. All top Russian pairs in the history have had completely different styles that are their own (particularly when you think about the echelon pairs as of late of G/G, M/D, B/S, and V/T).

And T/M are medal contenders because they have some of the best pairs quality currently, only beaten by S/H and S/K. These three teams certainly have the best unison, line, and skating skills by far.

I also like how some criticize T/M Rach SP because it was “chopped up” but what of M/D’s even more chopped up and even more sloppy Rach?

 

[Bigbird]

The mere fact that the Russian federation allowed a candyman program to be seen in public speaks volumes about their so-called specialists than T/M themselves.

 

[Mad for Skating]

The look on her face would be gold, though...

We deserve a Ksenia and Fedor Candyman program. We really do.

 

[Vash01]

I don’t know what cookie cutter Russian pairs means. All top Russian pairs in the history have had completely different styles that are their own (particularly when you think about the echelon pairs as of late of G/G, M/D, B/S, and V/T).

And T/M are medal contenders because they have some of the best pairs quality currently, only beaten by S/H and S/K. These three teams certainly have the best unison, line, and skating skills by far.

I also like how some criticize T/M Rach SP because it was “chopped up” but what of M/D’s even more chopped up and even more sloppy Rach?

I agreed with you until I read the last paragraph. I dont see M&D's Rach2 as chopped up or sloppy. It is one of the greatest performances in pairs skating.

 

[SmallFairy]

I agreed with you until I read the last paragraph. I dont see M&D's Rach2 as chopped up or sloppy. It is one of the greatest greatest performances in pairs skating.

You and me both!

 

[Japanfan]

I dont see M&D's Rach2 as chopped up or sloppy. It is one of the greatest greatest performances in pairs skating.

On this we agree, Vash 01.

I also thought D. was brilliant with K. in 1998. That was the first time I watched FS at the Olympics. My interest was piqued in '94, perhaps due to the Nancy/Tonya scandal, and perhaps due to my interest in Stojko (fellow Canadian) and the amazing men's FS comp - I fell in love with Urmanov in his ruffles, with his gorgeous smile.

 

[Aussie Willy]

I agreed with you until I read the last paragraph. I dont see M&D's Rach2 as chopped up or sloppy. It is one of the greatest greatest performances in pairs skating.

Totally agree as well. One of the best.

 

[MAXSwagg]

I mostly said that to make a point. The program was good (and I don't think Candyman is as offensive as everyone whines about). I'm not an M/D fan. Really just another trick pair to me. The program was okay but to say G/G should not have won is very goofy. G/G were on another unreachable level. In fact, B/S are the only Moskvina pair I am a fan of...

 

[aftershocks]

Because their team didn't think it was a "joke" of a program? They won a World silver medal and European title with it after all (plus 3 other golds, 2 of which were from the Grand Prix).

Just because the judges adore T/M's skating talent and kowtowed to that talent for most of the season, a few times even when they made bad mistakes, does not mean the Candyman program was not widely considered a joke among the skating community and a terrible program! It most certainly was a bad joke and a very poor choice for T/M, period.

Obviously with the judges blindly giving T/M high marks across the board for most of the season, of course T/M and their coaches didn't make changes. But bringing Candyman to the Olympics was beyond reprehensible. T/M deserved to be off the podium at the Olympics, and debatably in fifth place overall. It's been said too that Nina Mozer is the one who thought this fp music choice was just so great for Evgenia and Vlad.

The style and genre of music simply did not work for T/M, and the choreo was run-of-the-mill (no help at all). T/M are a couple romantically, yet could not even convincingly act out the flirty sections. Plus the explicit lyrics were WTF laughable during portions of the choreo (maybe even bordering on offensive or comically raunchy). Once again, this classically elegant couple do not do comically raunchy very well at all. It seems to me that Mozer and crew were maybe looking for something in the vein of Savchenko/Massot's groundbreaking (John Kerr choreographed) That Man program. Mozer and T/M came up bust though with Candyman. I lurves me some Xtina Aguilera any day, but this shizz did NOT work for T/M, regardless of all of the soft-pedaling and excuse-making in this thread.

I appreciate @clairecloutier's honest assessment quite early on in the season regarding this Candyman fiasco.

For T/M, Candyman should truly be relegated to their trash can as a turning point learning experience. But if they decide not to learn from it, oh well. For those thinking it would be such wonderfully cool pearl-clutching fun for T/M to bring this stale candy hawker back again, why not petition them to recreate it for an exhibition. Yuk, yuk!

 

[angi]

I think the BESP commentary said it best regarding T/M Candyman - basically it said that going into this everyone knew that if both Savchenko/Massot and Tarasova/Morozov will skate their FS clean, there would be nothing Tarasova/Morozov can do to win it over S/M. And the context to this was how awful Candyman is (and not the fact that S/M just won the Olympics). So T/M might have gotten good scores from the judges for it (and keep in mind that their season best was at Europeans where the judges overlooked 3 of their mistakes completely) but I think we all know that a clean S/H or S/M will beat a clean T/M based on the quality of the program. I will never understand how they agreed to it, and who in their right mind thought Candyman can be a good Olympic program (or even just a good program).

 

[caseyedwards]

I think not changing Candyman was a mistake, but not because it was a terrible program (which it was). It was always too fast for them, they struggled with the pace and it seemed as though that led to errors. Maybe the errors would have happened regardless, but they never seemed at all comfortable with it. I would think that you'd want a program you feel comfortable with for the Olympics.

The program wouldn't have been nearly so bad on some other teams (someone with some chemistry, lots of personality and the ability to do someone with a sense of humour) though I don't think it would have been a masterpiece on anyone. Might have been better as a funny ex.

They eventually had to try a program with lots of speed! It was inevitable that they would. They can’t do slow in every program. They had to try to show range! Maybe it was too early in their careers or just the wrong time - Olympic season.

I think the BESP commentary said it best regarding T/M Candyman - basically it said that going into this everyone knew that if both Savchenko/Massot and Tarasova/Morozov will skate their FS clean, there would be nothing Tarasova/Morozov can do to win it over S/M. And the context to this was how awful Candyman is (and not the fact that S/M just won the Olympics). So T/M might have gotten good scores from the judges for it (and keep in mind that their season best was at Europeans where the judges overlooked 3 of their mistakes completely) but I think we all know that a clean S/H or S/M will beat a clean T/M based on the quality of the program. I will never understand how they agreed to it, and who in their right mind thought Candyman can be a good Olympic program (or even just a good program).

It could be a part of PCs to grade if music is good for the skaters but it isn’t! The only scores are about what the skaters do.
The origin of the program was all about being different! They knew immediately like September and October that everyone was saying and to their faces they were doing worst pairs program of all time and continued because the goal was different! The only problem was that they got more and more uncomfortable doing the worst program of all time.

 

[Yazmeen]

Candyman is a kitschy song that requires frank hamming it up and acting over the top to pull it off (you just have to see the Aguilera video for the original song to get this) - you honestly have to put a lot of personality into this song. My problem with the whole thing was that their presentation didn't fit the song at all, they were too restrained and any time they did get "kitschy," it looked too forced. And then add in their nervousness at the Olympics and it just fell apart.

 

[whiteskates]

Let's be grateful for Candyman. Never has a programme kept the off season debate so lively.

 

[Mad for Skating]

Let's be grateful for Candyman. Never has a programme kept the off season debate so lively.

They should play Candyman at those awkward G7 summits between all the world leaders. The politicians could finally agree on something.

Anyhow, I'd be interested to audio-swap the program to some other song so we could actually focus on T/M's skating instead of the panties dropping...