Why was Candyman not changed?

[starrynight]

This is a topic that's been confusing me all season.

Why did Tararsova/Morozov persist for so long with Candyman when it rapidly became the punchline of a joke in the skating world? Why not switch back to a previous program (like so many other skaters did when there was even a suggestion their new program would not be perfect?) It seems like this was the season when all other skaters played it as safe as possible.

 

[Sylvia]

Because their team didn't think it was a "joke" of a program? They won a World silver medal and European title with it after all (plus 3 other golds, 2 of which were from the Grand Prix).

 

[sp555]

They kept it because it was a great program!

 

[meggonzo]

Because the judges gave them generous PCS scores.

 

[Seerek]

But what would have been the safe choice? Surely neither Hello nor Music.

Contrary to majority opinion, it could have worked (at least in a tongue in cheek way), but neither Zhenya/Vlad ever got the proper rhythm/feel down at all, and a team with stamina issues should not be ending their long program with the frantic "Ready Teddy" as the last song.

I'm actually surprised more wasn't made of including "Nasty Naughty Boy" - some 'interesting' lyrics never got edited out from that selection.

 

[Vagabond]

They kept it because it was a great program!

So it must have seemed to those concerned.

Because the judges gave them generous PCS scores.

I would describe the PCS as more craven than generous.

 

[quartz]

It was certainly one of the more talked about programs of the season.

 

[Marco]

Probably because they didn't feel the program / music itself would make the difference, and they were right. For them it was always about how clean they were, the PCS almost always immediately followed anyway. Much like Medvedeva's 911 program.

 

[Vash01]

Their last year's LP was worse (if you can imagine thus). Even they didn't like it. In one of the interviews Zhenya said something like they couldnt find anything better and they just accepted it (major paraphrasing). At least they believed in Candyman- why they chose it, and continued with it. When they skated clean, the judges did give them high marks.

I just don't want them to continue on that path though. They have so much talent! They deserve better programs.

 

[alchemy void]

I’m kind of hoping they keep Candyman another season, seeing as how they never skated to it’s full potential.

 

[kittysk8ts]

I love the style of their short this past season. It suits them. Not that experimenting isn't great as well. I have made no secret that I hated Candyman and its packaging. Looking forward to seeing them next season with Max and Robyn.

 

[Vagabond]

I’m kind of hoping they keep Candyman another season, seeing as how they never skated to it’s full potential.

You would.

 

[caseyedwards]

This is a topic that's been confusing me all season.

Why did Tararsova/Morozov persist for so long with Candyman when it rapidly became the punchline of a joke in the skating world? Why not switch back to a previous program (like so many other skaters did when there was even a suggestion their new program would not be perfect?) It seems like this was the season when all other skaters played it as safe as possible.

Because changing a program can be seen as being a big disaster as a bad program!

They underestimated the effect all the talk of them having the worst pairs free skate ever would have on them when they performed it at the Olympics!!! T/m had two amazing and astonishing short programs at the Olympics! They were on!! They were on fire!! The whole idea that everyone of the commentators and their fellow athletes would be telling them at the Olympics they had the worst program ever and they didn’t deserve to medal with it had to be terrible for them!

Slutskaya and plushenko of course had bezic always saying they didn’t deserve any medals because of artistry but it was so widespread with t/m!

Judges don’t judge programs for what they are but how they are executed! There was no way to give t/m a zero in skating skills because their music was candyman!

 

[VGThuy]

T/M's SP at the Olympics reminded me why Russian pairs skating is the apex of pairs skating. That's what made their LP even more jarring.

 

[Japanfan]

T/M's SP at the Olympics reminded me why Russian pairs skating is the apex of pairs skating.

A number of Chinese pairs have challenged that claim in the last two decades. S/Z are among the legendary pairs, and S/H look like they are going to be as well.

 

[Bigbird]

The same reason B/S kept their ridiculous SD. They just dialed in the elements their team was too lazy to create anything important. Also they assumed the judges would just give them their scores provided they hit their levels. TM were also at fault, if you see all your major competitors with such sophisticated programs and you chose instead to keep yours only thing left to do is to lick your wounds. Test skates are just a money making venture and the interests of the athletes are secondary.

 

[rfisher]

You would.

Add me to the list that hopes they keep it again just to make some fans clutch their pearls. Plus, I love me some Xtina.

 

[rfisher]

A number of Chinese pairs have challenged that claim in the last two decades. S/Z are among the legendary pairs, and S/H look like they are going to be as well.

Number equal 2. Two OGM by the same team. They aren't even close to the Russians. And, Sui/Han have yet to win that OGM and are plagued by injuries. They remain to be seen. Legendary is in the mind of the beholder, but if you look at number of wins, the Russians have that distinction and I don't think any other country will ever catch them.

 

[VGThuy]

A number of Chinese pairs have challenged that claim in the last two decades. S/Z are among the legendary pairs, and S/H look like they are going to be as well.

I love S/Z and they were a team I was most personally invested in. However, in this day and age, that classic Russian line, speed, technique (huge throws where the man doesn’t have to jump and look like he’s throwing a big sack of potatoes), lifts that don’t hurt my eyes, the cleanliness of movement, etc. has been unmatched by any other pairs school. Tarosova/Morosov aren’t the greatest Russian pairs, but they really do have that line, cleanliness, and classic technique down that other pairs don’t have and their SP, though some thought was emotionally distant, brought their strengths to the forefront in a way that their LP brought their weaknesses to the forefront. Plus after experiencing Totmianina/Marinin’s dominance, no pair is too emotionally distant and disconnected from the music to me.

 

[antmanb]

I really hope TarMor get a really good LP next season, none of their LPs have been great (and Candyman was the best of the bunch so far).

But i'm still laughing at the sh!t they've had this season. If you want to know why they chose it - there's an interview with them where they explain everything including why they didn't change programmes mid season.

I thought on paper this season's programmes were perfect - classical for the SP showing off all their strengths and they went with a contrasting LP. That's a fairly standard formula is the skaters are capable of that range or if they're experimenting with styles. Other skaters get criticism for doing similar style SPs and LPs.

They're damned if they do and they're damned if they don't. They're young enough to have another shot at the Olympics, and i'm sure they're happy with the other hardware they won this season with those programmes.

 

[VGThuy]

I think the idea wasn't a bad one theoretically, but the actual product was like a perfect storm of just pure ill-conceived ideas. The problem with the whole thing all happened during in the conception phase which caused the whole thing to be a bust.

First, the music edit was pretty bad, did not build, seemed random, and the choice of song with Aguilera's overpowering voice and censored lyrics just didn't help matters as they were distracting and gave countless hours of entertainment at their expense. T/M already have problems connecting with their music and really expressing to the audience nor are they particularly good dancers despite having that clean Russian line. They aren't known for having a quick snap to their movements either. So they never looked particularly on beat nor did they look like natural doing this program that say Horatek/Marchei or even Savchenko/Massot could have been. They also didn't have the presence to overtake Aguilera's singing.

Second, those costumes were also distracting added to the overall look that they looked lost and Team Mozer didn't know what they were doing. Usually costumes aren't that big of a deal, but these ones were just cheap looking, cartoony, and badly designed from the get-go. It would not have been so bad if the program itself wasn't such a bust on the outset, but since it was, this just compounded the problem. The reason why this is sort of a big deal even though some think costume critique is superficial (it's actually an important part of the whole package which is why films and plays/musicals, tv shows, etc. put so much effort into it and one doesn't actually need to spend the most amount of money to have a costume that can enhance a program) because it added to the perception that T/M had no idea what they were skating to, what the idea behind this program was, or understood the lyrics to the song.

Finally, the choreography itself was just not good. Did not really match the music or take advantage of the music, and somehow made a program to this song actually boring if we take away all of the unintentionally funny and entertaining things that Team Mozer did with this LP.

 

[antmanb]

@VIETgrlTerifa I agree with your analysis of the LP's shortcomings, and I kind of think they could be copy and pasted for their previous two LPs too (though I can't remember the costumes for Hello so not sure if the costume comments apply there as well). When compared to their last two LPs though I think Candyman was a better effort, and the best of those three LPs.

I think they and the team were certain that they needed to stick with the programme and hit the elements, rather than scrap or rework it, or scrap it and go back to a lesser LP so they were kind of stuck.

There was a lot of noise about the LP, but there is always is about the top people's programmes, and ultimately it's the judges marks that matter the most. Rightly or wrongly, when they hit the elements Candyman worked for them and the judges rewarded them with the PCS, when they didn't the PCS dropped. In that respect it did what it needed to do.

If you listen to too many outside opinions, you end up having a season like Wagner where you chop and change backwards and forwards between programmes and switch to much that no-one, including the judges, has a strong opinion one way or the other about your programmes.

I hope they have a really strong LP next season that showcases their speed and lines. Even if it isn't flashy or showy, they're more captivating now than Totmianina/Marinin ever were so even two warhorse classic programmes would be a good move, just to show they can come out and skate like a classic Russian pair.

 

[Wyliefan]

Add me to the list that hopes they keep it again just to make some fans clutch their pearls. Plus, I love me some Xtina.

Don't take this the wrong way, but sometimes, FSUers' desire for skaters to do things that make people clutch their pearls, reminds me of all those Twitter jokes about Trump voters wanting to burn the whole country down "to own teh libz."

 

[Mad for Skating]

I think we can all agree Candyman wasn't the best thing that ever happened to figure skating. It was no Michelle Kwan Lyra Angelica. But the judges kept rewarding it with more-than-decent PCS, and at the end of the day, the judges' opinion is what matters.

Personally, I think we kind of needed something like this to lighten up the skating world. Sometimes things can get too serious around here.

Now let's just hope Tarasova/Morozov get some great Gordeeva/Grinkov- or Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze-level programs for next season.

 

[Vash01]

A number of Chinese pairs have challenged that claim in the last two decades. S/Z are among the legendary pairs, and S/H look like they are going to be as well.

I have to disagree with this. B&S, K&D, T&M, V&T competed and won world and/or Olympic golds in the last two decades. IMO B&S were the best pair- better than S&Z- and V&T were the top pair when they competed, and better than the Chinese pairs of their time. T&M were a great pair who did not overemote and did not deserve the hateful comments on fsu. Russian pairs no longer dominate the way they did for four decades, because others have caught up, but I don't believe that the Chinese pairs totally own the top spot the way Russian pairs did. When it comes to the basics of pairs skating, Russian pairs are still the best.

 

[Mad for Skating]

I have to disagree with this. B&S, K&D, T&M, V&T competed and won world and/or Olympic golds in the last two decades. IMO B&S were the best pair- better than S&Z- and V&T were the top pair when they competed, and better than the Chinese pairs of their time. T&M were a great pair who did not overemote and did not deserve the hateful comments on fsu. Russian pairs no longer dominate the way they did for four decades, because others have caught up, but I don't believe that the Chinese pairs totally own the top spot the way Russian pairs did. When it comes to the basics of pairs skating, Russian pairs are still the best.

I fully believe that with the proper packaging, T/M could totally own the top spot.

 

[rfisher]

Don't take this the wrong way, but sometimes, FSUers' desire for skaters to do things that make people clutch their pearls, reminds me of all those Twitter jokes about Trump voters wanting to burn the whole country down "to own teh libz."

Ok. I don't care if people clutch their pearls but it is amusing. I think the program was just fine except it was too fast for them. Their elements are really big and simply take more time to execute. This is why they made mistakes they don't normally do. They were trying to keep up with the music and couldn't. There was nothing wrong with the music. They're adults, not pre-teens. There was nothing wrong with the polka dots. They were just polka dots. They were covered and nothing got in the way of their skates. Evgenia is never going to be able to smolder like Ksenia so trying to do a program that Stolbova/Klimov would do would never be the same. But, there was nothing inherently wrong with Candyman except for the pearl clutching and polka dot haterez. Given the times they won with the program, the judges didn't find it a problem. And given the times they didn't win, there were extenuating circumstances that impacted them (GPF and Olympics the pairs teams were either hearing rumbles about S/K not being able to go or the pressure on the team without them when they really didn't get to go.) I'm willing to cut them some slack.

 

[caseyedwards]

Judges had no capability through PCS to punish T/M for Candyman!! They had no ability to try to get them to change. That only could’ve happened through t/m and moser recognizing that Everyone besides judges and maybe even judges through conversation but not the scores that they were doing the worst pair program of all time!!!

You really have to beak the pcs down!!


Skating Skills which is the overall quality of the skating ability (e.g. balance, cleanness and sureness, flow, edges, multi directional skating, power)

• Transitions which is the variety, difficulty and purposeful use of intricate footwork, positions, movements and holds that link all elements.

• Performance is the physical and emotional involvement of the skater/couple as they deliver the intent of the music and composition (e.g. carriage, style, personality, variety, contrasts, projection).

• Composition is an intentionally developed and/or original arrangement of all types of movements according to the principles of musical phrase, space, pattern, and structure (e.g. idea, concept, unity, pattern, phrasing, originality, design)

• Interpretation of the Music /Timing (for Ice Dance) it is the personal, creative, and genuine translation of the rhythm, character and content of music to movement on ice.

Can anyone deny t/m didn’t try to perform to the music? Even morozov! He did try! I wish they had been like z/e!! But they did try! So with them absolutely trying where are the zeroes or fives or even 8.00 scores going to come from?!?!?

 

[Vash01]

I didn't have a problem with the costumes, except that they reminded me of the Parking Spot airport shuttles we have. I don't see that as a big negative. The problem in my eyes was that it completely hid their strengths and brought out their weaknesses. The music was totally wrong for them. It really was a disaster of a program but I believe they didn't have a plan B, just like last season. I see that as a coaching failure.

They are an immensely talented team, but they cannot go on making wrong choices of programs. I thought the judges were quite forgiving toward them when they skated nearly clean. After one failed LP (2017) I had hoped that they would try to find the right program, but they did the opposite. It was almost like they got no feedback at all, from the coaches or the judges. In a way I am glad that they didn't medal in the Olympics. I am hoping that it will motivate them to make better choices. IMO the first right choice should include the right coach and the right choreographer. I don't see that happening in Mozer's group. How can a coach totally ignore such a talented team? How can such a talented pair not seek the right coach?

 

[Bigbird]

Russian skaters are told what to do. They are bullied into believing that thinking for themselves and going against the tide will hurt them. It only works if they have the support of a substantial majority or key persons. Bad programs were not confined to T/M this season. It seems funny to me though that they generally tend to give stronger programs to weaker pupils and emptier ones to their stronger ones. Hilarious, go figure!