Why do people consider Irina Slutskaya a held up skater?

[tripleflutz]

The default position is to question victories of any Russian!! Russia took control of Skating judging and their power was in block judging and when ex-soviet countries were in judging panels it was really russia and not a real independent country at all!! So when slutskaya would do well or a butyrskaya or others in men pairs and dance it was because there was an illegitimate power imbalance that benefitted and still benefits Russia!! Even 5th place and 7th place of bobrova soloviev was block judging holding up bad Russians. So it’s nothing new and is very old and is not going away.

And she was not John nicks or frank caroll woman skater. She was IMPROPER

In fairness Russians have done a lot to earn that reputation, and moments like Sotnitkova Sochi continue to reinforce it. For years they got involved in excess bloc judging in dance and pairs, even often unneccessarily during times they would have won fairly anyway. I agree Slutskaya is unfairly painted with some of that brush simply for being Russian.

 

[Marco]

I actually respect the fact that she "code whored" points in 2006 (more accurately beginning in 2004-5), the twilight of her career.

She, Cohen, Arakawa, and Suguri really studied the system, and it's no surprise they finished 1-2-3-4 in Torino.

She prioritized levels over quality. Her combination spins would end with those ugly upright positions with COE. Made the spins all the more sloppy and less matched with the music /flow of the program. And don't get me started on that spiral sequence. What's worse was the judges didn't seem to care when they judged her GOEs.

Cohen, Arakawa and Asada also worked the code esp. Arakawa and Asada with the over-abundance of donuts / Biellmanns but at least they maintained the quality in their spins when they added in the 'repeated' features. Arakawa's spiral sequence was especially spectacular.

Funny you should mention Suguri because she was the odd one out in Turino who essentially matched the medalists on everything except she wasn't able to obtain the levels on her elements (lack of flexibility?) and lost out on a medal despite matching Arakawa jump for jump.

 

[tripleflutz]

She prioritized levels over quality. Her combination spins would end with those ugly upright positions with COE. Made the spins all the more sloppy and less matched with the music /flow of the program. And don't get me started on that spiral sequence. What's worse was the judges didn't seem to care when they judged her GOEs.

Cohen, Arakawa and Asada also worked the code esp. Arakawa and Asada with the over-abundance of donuts / Biellmanns but at least they maintained the quality in their spins when they added in the 'repeated' features. Arakawa's spiral sequence was especially spectacular.

Funny you should mention Suguri because she was the odd one out in Turino who essentially matched the medalists on everything except she wasn't able to obtain the levels on her elements (lack of flexibility?) and lost out on a medal despite matching Arakawa jump for jump.

IMO Arakawa is a better quality skater than Suguri in everyway. Even better basic skating and effortless speed, better jump technique and jump quality, definitely stronger spins and spirals, and far better posture, line, extension (these last things are where Fumie really suffers compared to other top skaters, even Slutskaya who is a mess here is probably better).

Fumie was just more consistent and a better day in and day out competitor, but on a day Shizuka is on song she will always comfortably beat Fumie. There is a reason Fumie was never considered a threat for a big title, and I dont think posted a single victory of either Kwan or Slutskaya her whole career. Ooops she did place 1 spot higher than a very ill Slutskaya at the 2004 worlds, so 1 over her.

I dont usually agree with Sandra Bezic but I think she summed it up well comparing Fumie to Shizuka after Fumie finished her LP in Turin. Saying it was a good skate, but she doent have the elegance, power, sophistication, or skating skills of Arakawa. Granted it was her blandest LP ever probably, had she had a better vehicle and landed a 6th triple just maybe she could have capatilized on Cohen and Slutskaya falling to get a medal. And it really paled in comparision to the stunning Shizuka Turandot program, by far her best ever vehicle. Just a bad choice for the Olympic year.

 

[Marco]

I do agree that programs played a big part in Fumie's career. She was more competitive in 2005 when there were only three levels and there was less stress to add in all the features. She had more time to rock her awesome Carmen program, and won 4CCs convincingly.

In 2006 there was just too much focus on the non jump elements for her when the ISU brought in level 4. She was normally a strong spinner and could display one or two features comfortably, but struggled to put in 3 or 4 which the medalists were doing. She was also routinely popping one of her second lutz or flip for two seasons by that point so she had to strip her program of much choreography to focus on the jumps. She did get all 6 at Nationals and that's how she qualified over Nakano. Still, I think I prefer Suguri over Slutskaya and would probably have given her the bronze over Slutskaya all things considered.

I have often thought Kwan, had she competed, would probably have ended up 4th at best even with 5 triples because of the exact same reason as Suguri.

 

[tripleflutz]

Didnt Kwan have 6 triples planned though? Considering the USFSA tests say she had improved her levels since 2005, and Slutskaya won bronze with only 4 triples, a fall, and a just bad performance all around, and Sasha won silver with 2 major errors, a hypothetical Kwan skating cleanly would probably have atleast medaled even with her IJS issues. Well I am giving the USFSA the benefit they were being honest about her improving her levels, for all we know they could have just been saying what was needed to justify her going over Hughes without any controversy. Doing all 6 triples would probably be asking a lot since she rarely did 6 triples after 2003 too.

Fumie would have had to do a 6th triple (she made only 5, doubling 1 planned one) to stand any chance to medal even with Cohen and Slutskaya's program given her blah program, the short program gap, and the COP issues particularly with the spins you broke down. According to the points she probably just misses even then, but she would atleast have better grounds for a real controversy then than what she is currently sitting on. I agree she could have a possible case for the bronze as it is, but realistically she was always going to have to knock out someone like Slutskaya at that point, Irina being reigning World Champ, dominant skater of most of the past 2 seasons, a legend in her last Games, and a sentimental favorite after her illness comeback. And Fumie wasnt even really a big name anymore by that point, and clearly not the Jap. fed favorite even, had Mao been eligible I have a feeling it might have been Fumie bumped right out even with her Nationals win (either she or Ando for sure). She was never going to get any benefit of doubt against someone like Slutskaya or even Cohen if there was any question to the result.

I dont like the spin rules of COP but they were probably at their worst then. I think they have been refined some, and are somewhat better now, although I would like a return to some of the simpler more classic spins, especialy a good old spectacular scratch spin like you used to see from some.

 

[Marco]

I believe Kwan would plan six and she landed 4 in the monitoring session IIRC. After how she spun at 2005 Worlds, I doubt she could outspin Suguri by much if at all in Turino even if she had gone. It would be the same as in 2005 - she would be debuting new COP spins there like she did (unsuccessfully) at 2005 Worlds without having competed with them ever and received judges feedback.

Kwan's body was pretty beat up by that point, but given how few she competed since 2003, she did at least produce a 6 triple program in 2004 and 2005. 2004 Nationals, 2005 cheesefest. It is entirely possible that she could will herself into giving a clean program at Turino - who knows - I am guessing five to be conservative since she wouldn't have competed at all since 2005 Worlds in which she landed 5 triples in the free.

 

[David21]

IMO Arakawa is a better quality skater than Suguri in everyway. Even better basic skating and effortless speed, better jump technique and jump quality, definitely stronger spins and spirals, and far better posture, line, extension (these last things are where Fumie really suffers compared to other top skaters, even Slutskaya who is a mess here is probably better).

I am not necessarily saying that Suguri was the better quality skater but I think you are overrating Arakawa compared to Suguri. Arakawa had her problems with posture, extension and jump technique as well. Look at her camel spin positions -> awful. Her layback, despite a good arch, was lacking in almost everything else. Look at her underrotated jumps -> awful technique. Her lip was even worse than Fumie's flutz. Her classical spiral positions were not that great, either. In fact, I think that Suguri's and Arakawa's strenghts (great speed, good artistry, originality and committment, relatively powerful lutz+flip jumps etc.) and weaknesses were quite similar. The big difference under CoP was that Arakwaya could do more tricks, had the triple-triple combos and got higher levels + (sometimes undeserved) higher GoEs because of her flexibility in the spins and spirals.

As far as extension, line, posture, yes I think Slutskaya was better than both of them.

 

[bardtoob]

Suguri and Arakawa were like the Slutskaya and Butryskaya of Japan. They were often trading the Japanese National Championship for about a decade.

In 2006 Fumie was the reigning Japanese Champion, having beaten Mao and Shizuka.

 

[tripleflutz]

I am not necessarily saying that Suguri was the better quality skater but I think you are overrating Arakawa compared to Suguri. Arakawa had her problems with posture, extension and jump technique as well. Look at her camel spin positions -> awful. Her layback, despite a good arch, was lacking in almost everything else. Look at her underrotated jumps -> awful technique. Her lip was even worse than Fumie's flutz. Her classical spiral positions were not that great, either. In fact, I think that Suguri's and Arakawa's strenghts (great speed, good artistry, originality and committment, relatively powerful lutz+flip jumps etc.) and weaknesses were quite similar. The big difference under CoP was that Arakwaya could do more tricks, had the triple-triple combos and got higher levels + (sometimes undeserved) higher GoEs because of her flexibility in the spins and spirals.

As far as extension, line, posture, yes I think Slutskaya was better than both of them.

Fair enough. To each their own but I do not really agree Arakawa was nearly as sloppy as you say. I agree on her camel positions, especialy that awful donut spin, but not most of the rest. I do not think she was a Cohen or Kwan in perfect positions or extension, but I think she was much more polished and had much better extensions and positions than Fumie was.

 

[VGThuy]

Arakawa always seemed like a good compromise between Sasha and Irina to win gold. She had qualities both skaters had even if her qualities there weren't as good as theirs (or maybe they were).

 

[tripleflutz]

Arakawa always seemed like a good compromise between Sasha and Irina to win gold. She had qualities both skaters had even if her qualities there weren't as good as theirs (or maybe they were).

Her skating skills were better than both IMO, even though Slutskaya's was also very strong. I think they were the best in the world at the time with Slutskaya, Kwan, Suguri, and young Kostner the closest behind.

Other than that yes she didnt stand out for anything imparticular. She had the 3/3s, but even there Irina at her best was probably capable of jumping better and harder 3-3s.

 

[kwanatic]

For me it was her basic skating skills (posture, bending at the waist while stroking, jump set ups) and lack of subtlety/depth of performance (programs seemed interchangeable and superficial, no particularly memorable or iconic programs)... her programs were always full of energy, speed, springy jumps, and a true joy of skating.

This pretty much sums up Irina for me. Of course I hated her while she was competing...to be clear I hated everyone who was not named Michelle Kwan at that time.

Irina existed during a time when presentation was pretty heavily weighted. Judges wanted lines, posture, elegance, cleanliness, etc. and Irina had literally none of that. Girlfriend was basically a jumping tank. At the time I couldn't stand it but post-Kwan I've gained an appreciation for all of her previous competitors as well as different styles of skating. I'm always going to prefer a Michelle-like skater over an Irina-like skater, but I see the value in both...I just vastly prefer one over the other.

There were a lot of negatives about Irina's skating for me: horrible posture (bent at the waist), sloppy and unrefined movements, extreme telegraphing of jumps, poor artistry, very little of versatility in terms of her style, lack of flow on landings (often landed at a stand still), sloppy spins, she was flexible but lacked extension, under-rotated jumps, and just a general all-over-the-place-ness about her.

However, Irina had energy for days. She had wonderful spring and power in her jumps. Nice speed too. Though she was never my cup of tea there was something endearing about her when she performed. I think I enjoyed Irina the most around 2005 when she completely threw the "pretty skater" vibe out the window and skated to Totentanz for her SP. That's her signature program as far as I'm concerned. It was a summary of her skating: speed, power, and not a smidge of "pretty."

I appreciate what she brought to the sport and I also loved her love of skating. Serafima Sakhanovich reminded me of Irina when she was younger...she even looked like her. Similar sloppiness to their style, big jumps with no flow, even the traveling spins. They also shared that intangible quality that made them enjoyable though not exactly pleasing to watch.

 

[tripleflutz]

This pretty much sums up Irina for me. Of course I hated her while she was competing...to be clear I hated everyone who was not named Michelle Kwan at that time.

Irina existed during a time when presentation was pretty heavily weighted. Judges wanted lines, posture, elegance, cleanliness, etc. and Irina had literally none of that. Girlfriend was basically a jumping tank. At the time I couldn't stand it but post-Kwan I've gained an appreciation for all of her previous competitors as well as different styles of skating. I'm always going to prefer a Michelle-like skater over an Irina-like skater, but I see the value in both...I just vastly prefer one over the other.

There were a lot of negatives about Irina's skating for me: horrible posture (bent at the waist), sloppy and unrefined movements, extreme telegraphing of jumps, poor artistry, very little of versatility in terms of her style, lack of flow on landings (often landed at a stand still), sloppy spins, she was flexible but lacked extension, under-rotated jumps, and just a general all-over-the-place-ness about her.

However, Irina had energy for days. She had wonderful spring and power in her jumps. Nice speed too. Though she was never my cup of tea there was something endearing about her when she performed. I think I enjoyed Irina the most around 2005 when she completely threw the "pretty skater" vibe out the window and skated to Totentanz for her SP. That's her signature program as far as I'm concerned. It was a summary of her skating: speed, power, and not a smidge of "pretty."

I appreciate what she brought to the sport and I also loved her love of skating. Serafima Sakhanovich reminded me of Irina when she was younger...she even looked like her. Similar sloppiness to their style, big jumps with no flow, even the traveling spins. They also shared that intangible quality that made them enjoyable though not exactly pleasing to watch.

That is a great summary I think.

All that said do you agree with my initial post it is really impossible to say she didnt deserve either of her 2 world titles, either of her 2 Olympic medals (you basically have to argue Cohen in 02 and Suguri in 06 medaling to push her off which I find a stretch at best personally), any of her 6 world medals, any of her 7 European titles besides arguably 2005, and any of her GPF titles apart from arguably 2001/2002. Which is my entire rebuttal against her being a held up skater whether her style of skating is your cup of tea or not.

 

[David21]

Irina and underrotated jumps? Yeah, on the most difficult jump combinations that other skaters at that time didn't even try. Other than that, total BS...

 

[puglover]

Irina remains one of, if not my most, favorite skater ever. I loved her jumps and just the sound of her blade on her landings. Our children were younger then and our net nanny always blocked her because of her last name. So frustrating to me at the time.

 

[Plusdinfo]

I'm not sure how many people call her held up or to what degree, but for me, the worst examples of her being held up were when in competition vs. Butyrskaya. Not all of them , but some. Prime example? See: 2000 NHK Trophy.

 

[tylersf]

I never saw Irina S as the portrait of grace, but I loved her athleticism, talent and perky personality on the ice. Kwan and Slutskaya developed a huge rivalry/friendship during their time. It was fun to see them sit together after they had finished their LPs to see who won. They would always congratulate each other after their results.

 

[Tak]

Irina was also well known for her friendliness to other competitors.
There was apocryphal story about her conversation with Shizuka at the 04 Worlds, which made the rounds within JPN figure skating fandom at that time. Please note that Irina missed most of 03-04 Season due to illness.
It went like this.
"Irina: Hi Shizuka! It is so nice to see you!
Shizuka: Hi Irina. Are you OK now?
Irina: I am not 100%, but I am much better now, thank you. Where is my friend Yoshie?
Shizuka: Yoshie Onda did not make the Worlds team, this year.
Irina: Oh, so Fumie won the JPN Nationals?
Shizuka: Fumie is in Dortmund, but she did not win our Nationals.
Irina: I beg your pardon, may I congratulate you on...
Shizuka: No, No, I did not win our Nationals. We have this new girl, who won the Japanese Nationals by landing a quadruple Salchow.
Irina: She landed a.... WHAT?!"

I find above story quite relevant now with great RUS Junior girls toting quads coming up next season.
Every time I saw Irina live (GPF in Tokyo and 05 Worlds), she was on top of her form with sizzling 3Lz/3lp. She did have great energy and speed in her performances, which I really appreciated.

 

[Finsta]

She was friendly when worked in her favor. She also trashed competitiors in interviews when home in Russia.

 

[Bigbird]

She was friendly when worked in her favor. She also trashed competitiors in interviews when home in Russia.

Apparently she has her issues. By my issue with her was her skating was so fugly. I mean she could jump but she was no Rika Kihira in any way shape or form.