Why do people consider Irina Slutskaya a held up skater?

[tripleflutz]

I was never a big fan of Irina Slutskaya but I have never gotten the rep she seems to have gotten post career as a held up or gifted skater. While she might have been overscored a bit at times (as if other top skaters of that same era like Kwan, Lipinski, Cohen also werent btw, so pretty much meaningless in itself in context) I can not think of even a single World title, world medal, or Olympic medal she didnt deserve. Going through those.

2002 and 2005 worlds- Both were pretty much undisputed wins you cant even reasonably argue anyone else winning. You could argue between her and Kwan winning the long at the 2002 worlds, but there is no argument against Irina and Michelle both winning their Q rounds, no argument for Irina not winning the short and Kwan being any higher than 3rd, and no argument for Irina being lower than 2nd in the LP, thus no argument against her winning. Personally I think since Irina and Michelle basically skated the same in the LP at the 2002 worlds, and they knew Irina was winning they figured just give the LP as a bonus anyway so she wouldnt have the unneccessary moniker of winning her 1st worlds without winning the long program, which makes total sense.

2002 Olympics and 2006 Olympics- I can not even see any case for her being lower than bronze at the 2006 Olympics even with her dissapointing performance. Fumie skating to that horrible Rachmaninoff program, also making mistakes, and coming from well back after the short, doesnt really have a case. There is a case for Irina being 2nd, although I agreed with Sasha finishing 2nd. At the 2002 Olympics you could make a case for her only winning bronze, but you could also make a case for her winning by winning the short program. Either way she was clearly on the podium both times.

1996 worlds- I think she overmarked but neither Butyrskaya or Szewcenko outskated her. If Butyrskaya didnt miss the last triple loop she probably wins the bronze.

1998 worlds- She definitely deserved silver, she had the best technical skate in the long program of anyone, including Kwan or Butyrskaya, and Butyrskaya gave away some of her artistic advantage with that brutal last fall which totally disrupted the program, and she was even more held up in the short than Irina anyway.

2000 and 2001 worlds- I dont see much case for her being any lower than silver either time. I guess Maria could have been placed over her in the long program at the 2000 worlds but the judges probably didnt want Kwan with a clean short and spectacular long losing to Maria with a very subpar long with 2 major errors, which would have happened if Maria was placed 2nd in the long.

Her 7 European titles were all deserved. I know she sucked in the long program at the 2005 Europeans, but it was a super weak field that year, Poykio winning the silver, and her short program lead won it for her anyway.

Her only undeserved GPF title was the 2001/2002 one, but she should have won the 95/96 one instead of Kwan, so it is a trade off anyhow.

So all in all, while she might have felt like a held up or overmarked skater with some dubious scores at times, there isnt one instance she really won an undeserved medal, other than meaningless grand prixs like winning NHK 2000 over Maria, but only skating nerds would even remember or care about such insignificant events these days.

 

[Finsta]

I liked her. But she was overmarked to create rivals. Russian top #1. Jumps often under rotated- mostly her 3/3s. A few controversial wins. Never as good in presentation as the scores given. Great fun personality in ice but off ice and interviews not so bubbles

 

[Marco]

For me, she is one of those skaters whose performances do not stand the test of time. Her speed was impressive and her short programs (the exotic ones) were often exciting to watch, but the free or the softer numbers were usually where her sloppiness showed.

I love her solo spinning but absolutely detest her double Biellmann combo spin because more often than not she travelled significantly and didn't hold her positions. Also detest the code whoring in her spins circa 2006.

 

[alchemy void]

We just had 400 posts in GSD about this.

 

[tripleflutz]

I liked her. But she was overmarked to create rivals. Russian top #1. Jumps often under rotated- mostly her 3/3s. A few controversial wins. Never as good in presentation as the scores given. Great fun personality in ice but off ice and interviews not so bubbles

I can see that as a general impression but get into specifics. Can you argue either of her world titles in 2002 or 2005? I think I broke down pretty explicably you really cant. Her 2 Olympic medals? I guess there might be the odd person who argues 4th place finisher Cohen in 2002 or 4th place finisher Suguri should have medaled but they would be in the real minority. Any of her 4 non gold world medals or 7 Europeans titles apart from maybe the 2005 Europeans? Any of her GPF final wins apart from I guess 2002.

 

[Finsta]

If remembering correctly she won her 02 Worlds with no 3/3. Always found that ironic because all the fuss when she would lost a competition but did a 3/3 (often slpppy and under rotated). Not remembering much else About that worlds. One she deserved no doubt was 2005. Did someone comment that she didn’t ?

 

[meggonzo]

We just had 400 posts in GSD about this.

Don't act like that wasn't a great thread!

 

[tripleflutz]

If remembering correctly she won her 02 Worlds with no 3/3. Always found that ironic because all the fuss when she would lost a competition but did a 3/3 (often slpppy and under rotated). Not remembering much else About that worlds. One she deserved no doubt was 2005. Did someone comment that she didn’t ?

People dont seem to get into specific events she didnt deserve, just talk about her getting a lot of undeserved results in general. Which is why I am going into specifics, and while I agree it feels like she is an overscored skater at times (although even that is irrelevant almost considering all of Kwan, Cohen, Lipinski, and even sometimes Butyrskaya, Arakawa, Chen feel like overscored skaters at times too) can anyone point to any specific major wins or medals she attained other than maybe the 2001/2002 GPF or 2005 Europeans that she didnt deserve? I am curious to see if anyone can come up with any others, and if there are no others she really wasnt that held up or overrated.

Like someone such as Baiul a lot of people think she didnt deserve her 93 world title and 94 Olympic Gold, so it is fair (atleast for these people) to call her a held up or way overscored skater. That makes sense. Yet for Slutskaya it seems like neither of her 2 world titles, 2 Olympic medals, or 6 worlds medals, or any of her European or GPF wins apart from possibly 1 each were undeserved. Which goes against any serious labeling of her as a skater who was that overmarked, even if some do not like her skating.

 

[briancoogaert]

1996 Worlds medal, 1998 placements after the SP at the Olympics and Worlds. I'm not sure those were deserved.
But it's not a special rule for Irina Slutskaya. She was Russian #1 so was sometimes held up.

 

[SmallFairy]

I don't remember all details of every competiton, but I was at Euros 2005 and Pöykiö was definitely robbed.

 

[briancoogaert]

At 2003 Euros, I wouldn't say Sokolova was definitely robbed, but clearly Slutskaya didn't skate well !

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

In 2001 I was fortunate enough to attend the world championships in person.

For me, the main difference between Slutskaya and Kwan was that with Irina, I saw the tricks, and with Michelle, I saw the performance.

 

[all_empty]

For me, she is one of those skaters whose performances do not stand the test of time. Her speed was impressive and her short programs (the exotic ones) were often exciting to watch, but the free or the softer numbers were usually where her sloppiness showed.

I love her solo spinning but absolutely detest her double Biellmann combo spin because more often than not she travelled significantly and didn't hold her positions. Also detest the code whoring in her spins circa 2006.

I actually respect the fact that she "code whored" points in 2006 (more accurately beginning in 2004-5), the twilight of her career.

She, Cohen, Arakawa, and Suguri really studied the system, and it's no surprise they finished 1-2-3-4 in Torino.

You can't fault a person for trying to maximize their points within the rules -- granted, there was Biellmann overload in her programs (spiral, layback and combination spins) and a fair bit of sloppiness.

But remember this. When IJS was introduced, skaters (ladies singles in Slutskaya's case) had to cram more elements in their programs -- many more than today.

The short had 8 elements -- three jump passes, three spins, a step sequence and spiral sequence.

The free had 13 elements -- seven jump passes, four spins, a step sequence and a spiral sequence. Nowadays there are only 12.

The fact that she was able to get level 4s on the spins and steps regularly is a testatment to her "working" (I find the term "whoring" vulgar).

But even before IJS, Irina was doing a lot of difficulty in her programs -- catchfoot spins, one-foot step sequences, loop combinations, etc. Again, maybe not so refined, but certainly respectable.

On top of that, the fact she struggled physically several times in her career (her body changes in 98-99 and illness in 2003), a complete technique rework on her 3Lz and 3F (ironic that the 3Lo failed her in Torino), an artistic rebirth, falling in and out of favor with her federation, and her mother's illness, I respect Irina and her long career.

 

[tripleflutz]

1996 Worlds medal, 1998 placements after the SP at the Olympics and Worlds. I'm not sure those were deserved.
But it's not a special rule for Irina Slutskaya. She was Russian #1 so was sometimes held up.

I used to think her bronze at the 96 worlds was a gift but now looking back at the skates I am not sure who should have beaten her. Maybe Butyrskaya or Kwiatkowski have a case? Definitely not Szewcenko, am baffled at some who said her.

Butyrskaya had 5 triples in the long. Slutskaya had 6, including 3 jump combinations to Slutskaya's 1. Still Maria's technical scores should have been better, and her presentation scores higher than Irina.

Tonia was the most underscored skater of those worlds by far. Should have been atleast top 5.

The one really held up in the short at the 98 worlds was Maria. She messed up all 3 jumps, and her combo turned into an ugly stag jump. I can see Irina's placement, other than the fall on her combination (and still doing the 2nd jump) the other elements were excellent besides the spiral sequence, and the event was pretty weak anyway. I do not agree with her being over Bonaly at the Olympics, but I think that was purely against Bonaly, not for Irina, and I think some of the judges purposely held Irina down in the long to prevent her from winning bronze which she arguably should have since Maria had a bad skate, and while Chen skated her best she was technically inferior to the other top girls even on her best days by then, since they felt she was lucky in the short.

 

[tripleflutz]

I don't remember all details of every competiton, but I was at Euros 2005 and Pöykiö was definitely robbed.

I always thought if anyone but Irina should have won there it was Liashenko, not Poykio. Liashenko had 6 triples to Poykio's 5, and Poykio is a slow and boring skater, even if elegant. I can definitely see Irina with a clean short (meaning she is deservedly far ahead after the short) with 3 triples winning over Poykio with 5. It would be different if she had done 6 or 7. Like I said I would have had Liashenko over her and more likely winning than her.

 

[lala]

I don't remember all details of every competiton, but I was at Euros 2005 and Pöykiö was definitely robbed.

Pöykiö was a boring skater.

 

[Vagabond]

We just had 400 posts in GSD about this.

So few? People here at FSU have been slacking.

 

[alj5]

For me it was her basic skating skills (posture, bending at the waist while stroking, jump set ups) and lack of subtlety/depth of performance (programs seemed interchangeable and superficial, no particularly memorable or iconic programs).

That said (with the exception of the 2003-2004 season with her illness) her programs were always full of energy, speed, springy jumps, and a true joy of skating.

 

[SmallFairy]

I never found Pöykiö boring, I could watch those Finnish girls stroke around the rink all day. She had lot of finesse in her movements, and often chose music not so often skated too.

In 2005 I suppose argument could be made for Liashenko. I must go back and watch. It's not just about the jumps though. Liashenko was telegraphing like crazy and wasn't as refined as Pöykiö. Doesn't mean I didn't love her to bits, though. I'm still devastated she never medalled at a big comp with that goregous Grieg-program.

#freakin'hijackingthread

 

[SmallFairy]

The thing with Irina is that I really enjoyed her skating when she emerged on the scene, skating fun programs to musicals and folklore. She had spunk and sparked of joy. After her down-season, she came back 99-00, and from that one skated zzzz free programs to one warhorse after the other. (SPs was better!) It was drama and arms and hands and head waving, and I couldn't get into that. I kept missing the old Irina. Her 2002 FS really had horrid choreo, what were they thinking. But in 2005, she was on fire at worlds. I loved that performance. Much more engaging program, though the choreo wasn't all that.

 

[VGThuy]

I would easily rank Slutskaya third in the Nagano LP. However, I may have ranked her 6th or lower in the SP. Not sure because she does have better skating skills than Bonaly, but Bonaly gave a fun and clean SP with a 3toe/3toe. Even with a solo 3Sal, Bonaly gave such a good performance.

 

[David21]

I would easily rank Slutskaya third in the Nagano LP.

That is one of the best examples against the theory that Irina was always held up. I agree that she had the 3rd best LP in Nagano.

 

[tripleflutz]

I would easily rank Slutskaya third in the Nagano LP. However, I may have ranked her 6th or lower in the SP. Not sure because she does have better skating skills than Bonaly, but Bonaly gave a fun and clean SP with a 3toe/3toe. Even with a solo 3Sal, Bonaly gave such a good performance.

A triple toe-triple toe should be worth so much more than a double lutz-double toe that I agree Bonaly should have been ahead in the SP. I think it was more the judges marking against Bonaly than pro Slutskaya though IMO. Slutskaya's marks werent exactly high even considering the major error.

I think part of the reason the judges didnt have Irina 3rd in the LP was because of the short program. If she had been 3rd after the short with a really good skate (with a clean short she might have even been 2nd over Tara in the short which would likely mean Tara never winning now) I cant imagine there is anyway she doesnt wind up 3rd in the LP with her, Butyrskaya, Chen giving the same performances. I would bet money on it.

 

[Aerobicidal]

The people who consider her a held up skater were too busy holding up cheeseburgers and eating them and getting obese to be qualified to skate 1/25 of a short program, let alone consider anything about Slutskaya.

I think Irina should sue all those who consider her a held up skater on Judge Judy!!!!

 

[UGG]

I don’t think she was held up but I do think she was in the Sasha Cohen category of the judges ready and waiting to crown her from 2000 on, but she only got it done at 2002 and 2005 worlds and did not make a case for herself at other events.

 

[tripleflutz]

I don’t think she was held up but I do think she was in the Sasha Cohen category of the judges ready and waiting to crown her from 2000 on, but she only got it done at 2002 and 2005 worlds and did not make a case for herself at other events.

I mean I dont think she should have won in either case but she could have been given either the 2002 Olympics or 2001 worlds without much controversy, definitely much less controversy than some of the decisions they had the last 20 years. Even the 2006 Olympics when you consider Arakawa could have easily been put 5-7 points back in the short rather than almost tied and nobody would have batted an eye (some were in fact stunned Shizuka was nearly tied with Cohen and especialy pre event favorite Slutskaya in the short) and could have held her to within that range in the long. And even sort of the 2000 worlds where her winning by the long would have been a pretty big controversy, but she could have easily won the short over Maria without any real controversy even though I definitely agreed with Maria winning the short, which would have given her the win.

I sort of agree with you, but I am not sure if the judges were quite as salivating to put her on top as they were Cohen. Cohen I agree they were just dying to give the big title to everytime out from 2002-2006, apart from probably the 2005 worlds in Russia which was always Irinas event to lose.

 

[VGThuy]

I would have single-handedly made 2001 Worlds controversial if Irina won that one.

 

[tripleflutz]

I would have single-handedly made 2001 Worlds controversial if Irina won that one.

You must be supremely confident in your powers then. Fsuniverse did get itself on the Korean news once though.

 

[VGThuy]

You must be supremely confident in your powers then. Fsuniverse did get itself on the Korean news once though.

And even made it onto some figure skater's personal FB posts, .

 

[caseyedwards]

The default position is to question victories of any Russian!! Russia took control of Skating judging and their power was in block judging and when ex-soviet countries were in judging panels it was really russia and not a real independent country at all!! So when slutskaya would do well or a butyrskaya or others in men pairs and dance it was because there was an illegitimate power imbalance that benefitted and still benefits Russia!! Even 5th place and 7th place of bobrova soloviev was block judging holding up bad Russians. So it’s nothing new and is very old and is not going away.

And she was not John nicks or frank caroll woman skater. She was IMPROPER