Who was Frank's 2nd favorite student of all time

[Simone411]

As far as I'm concerned Michael beat Todd at '98 Nationals! Just because the judges are a bunch a corrupt hacks didn't change that for me! This was an Olympic year and they "chose" Todd regardless of the performances! It was criminal, but it's sorta the norm here and elsewhere!

Okay then. You did say as far as you're concerned that Michael beat Todd. You also mentioned that the judges were a bunch of corrupt hacks and that it was criminal.

In other words, that's only your opinion and thank goodness for that! I certainly am glad that it's only your opinion. Just because you say it's so doesn't make it so by any means.

 

[Fiero425]

Okay then. You did say as far as you're concerned that Michael beat Todd. You also mentioned that the judges were a bunch of corrupt hacks and that it was criminal.

In other words, that's only your opinion and thank goodness for that! I certainly am glad that it's only your opinion. Just because you say it's so doesn't make it so by any means.

I'm not even a fan of MW's, but been watching the sport for decades and as much as this new scoring system is supposed to alleviate the chances of bias, it's still as corrupt as ever with the whole world watching! Just because there's a consensus winner at times and people are satisfied with the results doesn't eliminate shady dealings going on! Even in the Olympics you have to question some of the decisions; Rippon's team performance position puzzling to many!

 

[savchenkoboss]

Michael's quad lutz was badly underrotated and two footed. I wouldn't even credit it as much as a clean quad toe. And he badly botched a planned triple flip-triple toe combo, turning it into nothing. Todd's performance was unspectacular and had a bad splat on his quad toe try but pretty much clean otherwise. I was fine with the outcome, there are far worse outcomes in the sport than that one. The same performances at the Olympics, I am sure Todd is placed ahead. In fact given the performances of the men at the Olympics Todd probably wins silver even with his Nationals skate, while I think Michael would still be placed only 5th or so in the long as his international cred. wasn't much at that point. That last point being part of why Todd got the benefit of doubt when Weiss was hardly perfect either as I noted, and the reason people like Kwan, sometimes Cohen, and others might be held up/gifted at Nationals sometimes too. All federations do it at their Nationals, if you ever watched the Russian Nationals I guarantee you they are 100 times worse than the U.S Nationals as far as bias, politics, and corruption.

 

[Fiero425]

Michael's quad lutz was badly underrotated and two footed. I wouldn't even credit it as much as a clean quad toe. And he badly botched a planned triple flip-triple toe combo, turning it into nothing. Todd's performance was unspectacular and had a bad splat on his quad toe try but pretty much clean otherwise. I was fine with the outcome, there are far worse outcomes in the sport than that one. The same performances at the Olympics, I am sure Todd is placed ahead. In fact given the performances of the men at the Olympics Todd probably wins silver even with his Nationals skate, while I think Michael would still be placed only 5th or so in the long as his international cred. wasn't much at that point. That last point being part of why Todd got the benefit of doubt when Weiss was hardly perfect either as I noted, and the reason people like Kwan, sometimes Cohen, and others might be held up/gifted at Nationals sometimes too. All federations do it at their Nationals, if you ever watched the Russian Nationals I guarantee you they are 100 times worse than the U.S Nationals as far as bias, politics, and corruption.

Nice summary! Now do 2000 US Nat'ls women's event; MK over Sasha Cohen! It could be more revisionist history on my part, but like Mirai winning in '08, they didn't want the US Champ virtually unable to represent them internationally! Sasha wasn't old enough at the time, but might have qualified for Worlds if she won the Junior Worlds! All that pressure wasn't good and she failed so it made sense to the FS powers pretty much "chose" Michelle over Cohen! Regardless of her results, I can watch Sasha all day long!

 

[DimaToe]

Linda’s shadow was Frank’s 2nd favorite. Although the race for 3rd is close between Linda’s skate guards and Daisuke Murakami

 

[savchenkoboss]

Nice summary! Now do 2000 US Nat'ls women's event; MK over Sasha Cohen! It could be more revisionist history on my part, but like Mirai winning in '08, they didn't want the US Champ virtually unable to represent them internationally! Sasha wasn't old enough at the time, but might have qualified for Worlds if she won the Junior Worlds! All that pressure wasn't good and she failed so it made sense to the FS powers pretty much "chose" Michelle over Cohen! Regardless of her results, I can watch Sasha all day long!

Yeah I think that was probably also atleast a partial political decision. Granted I think Kwan probably deserved to win the LP even with a totally subpar LP with Cohen's last fall, but Kwan 100% should have been 4th in the long behind Nikodinov. It would have been kind of stupid to send either an unproven 14 year old (Hughes) or a junior skater who might not even be able to compete at Senior Worlds (and who ended up coming 6th at Junior Worlds) as the U.S Champion over Kwan though, and would majorly have sunk her status internationally, so would have been kind of dumb even if it is the result that probably should have happened.

One thing for sure, Kwan is sure super lucky she didnt skate like that at worlds. She would have been about 6th or 7th in the short, 4th in the long (behind Gusmeroli) and probably not even medaled even with Gusmeroli's Q round bomb, never mind being even close to winning.

I am Canadian and some cases I can think of where they protected their own interests:

-2016 Nationals pairs. Sequin & Bilodeau were on fire and Duhamel & Radford skated pretty badly with some major errors. The judges still held D&R on PCS and made them easy winners.

-2003 Nationals mens. Sandhu skated subpar in all arounds but was gifted the title, as he was still seen the big Canadian hope at that point. Andreev skated lights out and clean in the long with a quad, and didnt even make the 2 person team, finishing 3rd behind Sandhu and Buttle. The top 3 really should have finished in reverse order with Andreev 1st and Sandhu 3rd.

-2007 Nationals ladies. Rochette skated like rubbish with 2 or 3 triples done out of 7 and Mira was clean with 7 triples. Even as inferior Mira is in basic skating, quality of elements, and nearly every aspect other than spins and spirals, she really should have beaten Joannie here, but that would have been a potential death blow to Joannie's future career so didnt happen of course.

-1990 Canadians men. Browning skated godawful and still won over baby Stojko who skated cleanly with 8 triples. While the rest of Stojko's skating was fairly juniorish at this point, Browning managing only 3 triples or so and missing over half his jump tries still should have gone down to defeat. Browning might have never won another World title if he had lost here though.

-1993 Canadians dance. Bourne & Kraatz did not deserve the title this year, they should have been 3rd but the CSA already had deemed them their big future hopes so dumped 2 veteran journeyteams Petr & Janoshak and Mann & Noria, who both retired immediately due to the result, and gifted them a premature title.

Those are just the more blatant examples I can think of, there are many more.

 

[blue_idealist]

-2007 Nationals ladies. Rochette skated like rubbish with 2 or 3 triples done out of 7 and Mira was clean with 7 triples. Even as inferior Mira is in basic skating, quality of elements, and nearly every aspect other than spins and spirals, she really should have beaten Joannie here, but that would have been a potential death blow to Joannie's future career so didnt happen of course.

I thought this too!

 

[aftershocks]

I thought I was clear. Todd was the recipient of a lot of favoritism, which I found annoying starting in 1992 with the nomination to the Olympic Team after not skating at Nationals.

As far as Todd's skating goes, he was good. He had good compulsory figures. He had good jumps.

I did not like that he did not take more risks athletically because he had talent to spare. It never sat well with me that he liked taking on roles where he was the soldier or knight or conquistador but was hardly ever gutsy. I will note he was gutsy in the 1996 Worlds LP, but then he knew playing it safe was not going to result in a win after Nationals.

It's certainly not Todd Eldredge's fault that he was 'favored by USFS.' As we know, many skaters have been 'favored' over the years for whatever reasons. To a degree overt favoritism has seemed to lessen somewhat, especially among the U.S. men's discipline, particularly post-Evan/Johnny era, and post-2011 poor decision by US fed to not send arguably their best skater, Jeremy Abbott, to Worlds. Of course, favoritism and politics still exist in figure skating. But why on earth would you still be 'annoyed' about shizz that happened in the U.S. men's division in the early 1990s? Much less still holding such shizz against Todd Eldredge.

I remember having felt that Paul Wylie should have won Nationals in 1990 and in 1991. Todd was a new up-and-comer with great jumping ability, and TPTB in the sport have always loved good, consistent jumpers over artists. Paul also often experienced nerves during competitions which held him back on a number of occasions. Paul was coming into his own though during that period, and conquering his nerves. That's one reason why it was so thrilling when Paul nearly won Olympic gold in 1992.

Regarding Todd, he was always quite humble in victory. As an up-and-coming skater, I think Todd was surprised and maybe slightly embarrassed about winning over Paul. Todd still had a lot to improve and a long way to go in the early 90s. But Todd kept working hard and he challenged himself and he lived up to his potential. If he had been training the quad earlier on, I believe that Todd would have mastered that extra revolution too. It doesn't really matter what 'sits well' with you regarding the music Todd chose for his programs. He explored what moved him, and he made an effort to raise his performance level and to expand his creative abilities. Like any skater, Todd experienced challenges and ups-and-downs, but he persevered. Todd Eldredge should be remembered with respect and given due credit for his contributions.

 

[Fiero425]

It's certainly not Todd Eldredge's fault that he was 'favored by USFS.' As we know, many skaters have been 'favored' over the years for whatever reasons. To a degree overt favoritism has seemed to lessen somewhat, especially among the U.S. men's discipline, particularly post-Evan/Johnny era, and post-2011 poor decision by US fed to not send arguably their best skater, Jeremy Abbott, to Worlds. Of course, favoritism and politics still exist in figure skating. But why on earth would you still be annoyed about shizz that happened in the U.S. men's division in the early 1990s?

I remember having felt that Paul Wylie should have won Nationals in 1990 and in 1991. Todd was a new up-and-comer with great jumping ability, and TPTB in the sport have always loved good, consistent jumpers over artists. Paul also often experienced nerves during competitions which held him back on a number of occasions. Paul was coming into his own though during that period, and conquering his nerves. That's one reason why it was so thrilling when Paul nearly won Olympic gold in 1992.

Regarding Todd, he was always quite humble in victory. As an up-and-coming skater, I think Todd was surprised and maybe slightly embarrassed about winning over Paul. Todd still had a lot to improve and a long way to go in the early 90s. But Todd kept working hard and he challenged himself and he lived up to his potential. If he had been training the quad earlier on, I believe that Todd would have mastered that extra revolution too. It doesn't really matter what 'sits well' with you regarding the music Todd chose for his programs. He explored what moved him, and he made an effort to raise his performance level and to expand his creative abilities. Like any skater, Todd experienced challenges and ups-and-downs, but he persevered. Todd Eldredge should be remembered with respect and given due credit for his contributions.

I wasn't watching skating at all around that era! I have to like what's going on in a skater or how the sport was evolving; neither was happening after Cousins in '80! I just never cared for those skaters; Witt, Hamilton, Boitano! The judging was abismal when it came to these skaters in particular which just made it unwatchable; esp. when they all went pro! Gratuitous 10's when bloods being left on the ice made so little sense to me! If it weren't for Nancy and Tanya in '94 I might have missed that BOON to the sport! I don't think people realize how huge skating became; often with telecast on all the networks; Am. & Pro! Loved Bonaly, Urmanov, Plushenko, Slutskaya, & Cohen! Now you practically have to hunt for it; even with an Olympic Network!

 

[savchenkoboss]

One person who always got the short end of the stick in U.S judging and USFSA politics was Mark Mitchell. While I agree Paul should have won Nationals in 1990, Mark actually should have made the 91 world and 92 Olympic and world teams over Paul given their performances at Nationals. Of course regarding the 92 Olympics in hindsight I am glad Paul was sent instead for obvious reasons, and as much as I like Mark I cant see him doing that well there. Mark probably still should have been there as Todd clearly wasnt ready to skate there and probably should have WD. It is amazing Mark competed at only 2 worlds and no Olympics for the U.S.

 

[soogar]

I never watched Nat'ls! I so objected to the pros being allowed to come back; esp. Torvill & Dean in Britain! They had their time 10 years before for Gawd-sake! The only reason I watched Lillehammer was because of Nancy & Tanya of course! Wound up enjoying Urmanov beating Elvis and old lady Katarina Witt embarrassing herself!

Katarina Witt didn't embarrass herself. She had the best program out there and she skated last.

 

[Fiero425]

Katarina Witt didn't embarrass herself. She had the best program out there and she skated last.

She embarrassed herself by taking a spot from a more deserving and younger skater; whoever it was! She knew she had no way of winning & her so called "statement" was self-serving which is why I've never cared for her ego-ladened arse!

 

[soogar]

She embarrassed herself by taking a spot from a more deserving and younger skater; whoever it was! She knew she had no way of winning & her so called "statement" was self-serving which is why I've never cared for her ego-ladened arse!

The only younger skater was Tanja Szewczenko and she won German Nationals and competed at the Olympics. I bet most of the other German skaters may not have even qualified for the Games because Germany doesn't just send skaters to big events unless they meet a minimum performance. I'm sure there are FSU'ers more familiar with the German system than I am who can chime in. Katarina is great champion and I'm sure Germany was proud to send her. Just like the Russians were proud to have Plush as their only man in Sochi so he can win an Olympic team medal.

 

[Fiero425]

The only younger skater was Tanja Szewczenko and she won German Nationals and competed at the Olympics. I bet most of the other German skaters may not have even qualified for the Games because Germany doesn't just send skaters to big events unless they meet a minimum performance. I'm sure there are FSU'ers more familiar with the German system than I am who can chime in. Katarina is great champion and I'm sure Germany was proud to send her. Just like the Russians were proud to have Plush as their only man in Sochi so he can win an Olympic team medal.

The difference was Plushenko was all Russia had and he actually did help win that OG Team Medal for his country! Katarina just wanted an audience and to fulfil her need for the spotlight! Germany ended up sending another skater to '94 Worlds, Marina Kielmann, so that excuse of sending only someone with minimum performance level is a crock! She finished 4th! Katarina was more well known and adored and she stole an Olympic spot thru her selfishness and ego!

 

[soogar]

The difference was Plushenko was all Russia had and he actually did help win that OG Team Medal for his country! Katarina just wanted an audience and to fulfil her need for the spotlight! Germany ended up sending another skater to '94 Worlds, Marina Kielmann, so that excuse of sending only someone with minimum performance level is a crock! She finished 4th! Katarina was more well known and adored and she stole an Olympic spot thru her selfishness and ego!

Well we are off the thread topic but Marina already had 2 Olympic games under her belt and no way was she going to medal and her skating is not at the same level as Katarina Witt's.

 

[savchenkoboss]

Well in 94 on a good day Marina was probably able to beat Witt and be competitive with Tanja simply because she could do much harder jumps, and that was the main thing judged by that point, even with the massive weaknesses in many areas of her skating. She bombed at Nationals and Europeans which is the main reason Witt was able to make it. She is the furthest thing from the example of taking a spot from a younger skater though, she was a 26 year old granny, only 1 year younger than Witt, and had competed at a ton of worlds and numerous Olympics.

At Worlds after the Olympics she would have beaten Tanja Szewcenko for the bronze had she not had 1 of her 2 late falls. Tanja finished above Witt in all their head to head meetings that year.

 

[Fiero425]

Well in 94 on a good day Marina was probably able to beat Witt and be competitive with Tanja simply because she could do much harder jumps, and that was the main thing judged by that point, even with the massive weaknesses in many areas of her skating. She bombed at Nationals and Europeans which is the main reason Witt was able to make it. She is the furthest thing from the example of taking a spot from a younger skater though, she was a 26 year old granny, only 1 year younger than Witt, and had competed at a ton of worlds and numerous Olympics.

At Worlds after the Olympics she would have beaten Tanja Szewcenko for the Bronze had she not had 1 of her 2 late falls. Tanja finished above Witt in all their head to head meetings that year.

I watched it; just giving drama to my animus toward "The Diva!" Hard to believe she would be eventually outdone by an even bigger ego just 2 years later; Oksana Baiul! This drama queen actually strained and hurt herself curtsying; and it wasn't for the extended applause! A few times there was silence while she posed waiting for more!

 

[savchenkoboss]

I watched it; just giving drama to my animus toward "The Diva!" Hard to believe she would be eventually outdone by an even bigger ego just 2 years later; Oksana Baiul! This drama queen actually strained and hurt herself curtsying; and it wasn't for the extended applause! A few times there was silence while she posed waiting for more!

She also said in her book she thought she should have been 3rd or 4th in the short since Baiul and Chen two footed their combos. She seemed to be living in a time warp and not realizing if you didnt have a triple lutz you couldnt compete at the top anymore. Triple toe loop combos were out, nobody else but someone with her name could have even dreamed of making the final flight with a triple toe combo.

It was funny how she ended up being a total afterthought, not only competitively, but any attention she might have received was drowned by the Kerrigan-Harding scandal.

 

[Fiero425]

She also said in her book she thought she should have been 3rd or 4th in the short since Baiul and Chen two footed their combos. She seemed to be living in a time warp and not realizing if you didnt have a triple lutz you couldnt compete at the top anymore. Triple toe loop combos were out, nobody else but someone with her name could have even dreamed of making the final flight with a triple toe combo.

It was funny how she ended up being a total afterthought, not only competitively, but any attention she might have received was drowned by the Kerrigan-Harding scandal.

This is why I never cared for Katarina! She always seemed to have this persona of entitlement! Not a lot was made of how she got this great apartment back in E. Germany when the waiting list was supposedly very long! She was the QUEEN and she had no intentions of waiting even a week! I can faintly remember the days when skating was seen and talked about a lot! The thing is the more exposure eventually reveals inequities which are tolerated! IIRC, on one of the tours (COI or SOI); never was much into exhb. skating, there was "THE DIVA BUS" with just Katarina, Brian Boitano, & Dorothy Hamill! The others had to cram onto 1 other bus! They actually had the nerve to justify it by saying to our faces, "we earned it!"

 

[savchenkoboss]

This is why I never cared for Katarina! She always seemed to have this persona of entitlement! Not a lot was made of how she got this great apartment back in E. Germany when the waiting list was supposedly very long! She was the QUEEN and she had no intentions of waiting even a week! I can faintly remember the days when skating was seen and talked about a lot! The thing is the more exposure eventually reveals inequities which are tolerated! IIRC, on one of the tours (COI or SOI); never was much into exhb. skating, there was "THE DIVA BUS" with just Katarina, Brian Boitano, & Dorothy Hamill! The others had to cram onto 1 other bus! They actually had the nerve to justify it by saying to our faces, "we earned it!"

LOL that is hilarious. My aunt was at a function she was also waiting for the room with some others next. She barged in before it was over and screamed "YOU GUYS ARENT FINISHED YET".

I will give her one thing, she is a star. There is not more popular cross over star people out of skating worldwide know in the sport in the last 30 years. Only Yu Na Kim and Kerrigan/Harding (in their case for only one reason- the incident, so cant really cant) come close maybe, and I am not even sure how popular Kim is in North America.