Who was Frank's 2nd favorite student of all time

[bardtoob]

I think Bowman broke Frank's heart.

https://youtu.be/XrmVsBKXlcg

I literally saw this SP from Christopher Bowman for the first time 5 minutes ago, and the music made me cry.

 

[aftershocks]

I am so sad that Abbott, with his crappy skating at the Olympics, has an Olympic medal of any kind while Weir never got a medal despite having some rather spellbinding moments at the Olympics.

Whatever you may not like about Abbott, including his not living up to his talent in crucial moments, his pure talent as a dancer-on-ice should really not be dismissed nor underestimated. The phenomenal skating talent of both Abbott and Weir inspired many skaters of their generation. But due to his hard work and championing by none other than Frank Carroll, it's Evan Lysacek who won Olympic gold. That's one of many indications that success in figure skating is a crapshoot which is more about determination, drive, luck, and guts under pressure than it is about talent.

And when you talk about gifted skaters not having the luck of the draw in winning gold, or in winning an Olympic medal of any kind vs skaters who at least have a team medal, the list is going to be too long to compile. BTW, I don't think Johnny is still worrying about his career or about having had bad luck in 2006, and being dissed in 2010. He's surely no longer as Heartbroken.

 

[berthesghost]

Ok, who voted for Gold

 

[savchenkoboss]

I personally think Evan was more talented than Johnny. Johnny had prettier lines, more elegance, and bigger jumps but Evan had stronger spins, much stronger footwork, more speed and attack, and he sold his programs and music better, and had superior command of the ice. He was also stronger at combination jumps, carrying the speed and flow throughout. The gap in their talent was probably less than the gap in their results though. Abbot was the most naturally talented of the trio.

 

[bardtoob]

Whatever you may not like about Abbott, including his not living up to his talent in crucial moments, his pure talent as a dancer-on-ice should really not be dismissed nor underestimated.

He was supposed to be a masculine replacement for Weir, but Abbott was just a whiny purple wearer.

But due to his hard work and championing by none other than Frank Carroll, it's Evan Lysacek who won Olympic gold.

Yes, Evan's training and commitment made up for what did not come naturally.

 

[savchenkoboss]

I do think Weir is a bit underrated as a competitor. He was a bit dumb in using COP to his advantage, and was far better suited to 6.0, so was one of those hurt by the scoring system change. However he rarely completely fell apart the way Abbott often did, and skated his best on the biggest stage at the 2010 Olympics, even if it was after TPTB considered him a contender and he would have been better timed doing it in 2006 when he was a real contender instead. He was also a fighter and came back from early mistakes often.

Jeremy was a very nervy and scared competitor. I knew by the look on him before his 2010 Olympics short program he was going to blow it bigtime. Apart from the 2010 Olympics and 2009 worlds I dont know why he had so much self imposed pressure and apart from those two events nobody was talking him up as a contender often, even though he had the potential to be and even win if he skated lights out, but he seemed to have that self imposed pressure everytime nonetheless.

 

[VGThuy]

I think the thing with Evan is that many skating fans don't actually like his skating. People forgive a lot and see skaters differently if they actually like what you're putting out there. I think they appreciate and respect what he was able to do, but that's different from truly enjoying a skater. Evan seemed popular with the casual Olympic watchers though who don't care about half (or more) of the stuff hardcore skating fans care about.

Personally, I enjoyed Evan a lot when he burst onto the scene back in 2003-2004 and the 2004-2005 season. Afterwards, he seemed much more controlled (regarding his skating and his image) and very careful except when he put his skate in his mouth when he commented about Johnny Weir. That's when I couldn't really enjoy his skating. Plus, he was in the age of Weir, Abbott, Lambiel, Buttle, Takahashi, Oda, etc. all these men who were so talented but could not hit consistently. Regarding the immature back and forth between him and Johnny. I don't remember Evan ever saying anything about his other competitors (well, there was that look he gave the camera when he lost that Skate America to Oda and Oda was bawling in the KnC), so there was something about Weir and Lysacek's relationship that was fractured. I remember Weir calling Lysacek a "slore" or something which seemed like an immature and random insult.

 

[aftershocks]

He was supposed to be a masculine replacement for Weir, but Abbott was just a whiny purple wearer.

In your opinion, perhaps. Or perhaps Jeremy Abbott's former coach Tom Z and some in U.S. fed may have initially thought so. But I doubt that most U.S. fed members were fully behind Abbott being 'a masculine replacement for Weir.' It was clearly 'macho' black-costume-wearing Evan Lysacek who was trumped and groomed to be the faux 'masculine replacement' for Weir, and he (Evan) was. There's no doubt of that. U.S. fed preferred Evan above everyone else including Savoie, Abbott, Goebel who was on his way out anyway, and even Bradley.* The problem for U.S. fed was that Weir's talent was too out-sized, influential and admired by his entire generation, many fans, and up-and-coming skaters too. In general, Weir was equally dissed by some in U.S. fed, and taken for granted as back-up insurance. The unfortunate competitive bad luck for Weir was partly his own doing, and ... well books have been written, humongous threads have arisen and died, and yet unaccountable hate still seethes for the Fallen Angel.

* Obviously, Ryan Bradley later became the preferred 'macho alternative' to Abbott. Check the history. Yes, Abbott was disappointing in some big moments, but he also shined in some big moments too, chiefly at U.S. Nationals, 4CCs and GP events (although he never won a medal at Skate America, and he only won bronze twice at 4CCs). Actually, a lot of the relentless fan hate for Weir and Abbott have similarities: 'Those 'faggy' bloomin' pissants had all that talent and blew it!'

That view is not how I feel, as the truth is more complicated. Weir and Abbott both had a lot of help being looked down on, and being considered politically incorrect. The sad thing for them both are the blown singles event Olympic medal opportunities in 2006 and 2010 respectively, which mainly rests on their shoulders. At least Abbott has the bronze in the 2014 team event, but right now medals in the Olympic team event are relative in terms of their overall significance, despite being worthy and valuable for many skaters.

 

[berthesghost]

I can’t possibly decide which nat champ was the manliest until people start posting shirtless pictures.

Oh who am I kidding, everyone knows the answer is Weiss

 

[UGG]

If Jeremy and Jonny had skated how they were capeable I think they would have received the correct scores. I never felt they were held down in favor of Evan. As mentioned previously, they both have more national titles than Evan. Wasn’t Evan 3rd at nats the year he won worlds? And Jonny won a world medal before Evan...

 

[bardtoob]

I can’t possibly decide which nat champ was the manliest until people start posting shirtless pictures.

Oh who am I kidding, everyone knows the answer is Weiss

Mr. "I have man parts that I use to do quad jumps and make my wife pregnant"

 

[VGThuy]

Wait, did Weiss actually say that? I just remember him showing us his bedroom and saying "this is where the magic happens."

I can't hate on Weiss too much though. I feel like he really is a nice guy with good intentions deep down, and the Michael Weiss foundation has done so much for many skaters, including Nathan Chen. In that way, he didn't just talk a big game, but put his money where his mouth was regarding directly assisting up-and-coming skaters.

 

[wickedwitch]

If Jeremy and Jonny had skated how they were capeable I think they would have received the correct scores. I never felt they were held down in favor of Evan. As mentioned previously, they both have more national titles than Evan. Wasn’t Evan 3rd at nats the year he won worlds? And Jonny won a world medal before Evan...

Evan won world medals in 2005 and 2006. Johnny won his in 2008.

 

[VGThuy]

I remember what a nice surprise that 2005 World medal was too. He didn't even bring an exhibition costume because he didn't know he'd be needing it.

 

[UGG]

Oh I totally forgot about 2005 and 2006 for some reason I thought his first medal was his world championship. I am getting old!

 

[Fiero425]

Oh I totally forgot about 2005 and 2006 for some reason I thought his first medal was his world championship. I am getting old!

Gawd, what a wasted career; well only to an extent! I was never a fan due to his rivalry with Weir that got ugly at times and his general attitude just rubbed me the wrong way! He should have won a lot more after all the buzz over the years! Between that blade breaking on him 10 years ago and the chronic injuries related or not related to that accident, any news of him after '10 Vancouver had to be talk just to keep his name out there for his endorsements purposes! Just a guess on my part; pulling a "Tara Lipinski" by ducking further competition after lucking into an OG medal! That high can't be matched and coming up short of gold in any competition invalidates that medal each time I guess! It's a shame when that happens!

 

[Fiero425]

In your opinion, perhaps. Or perhaps Jeremy Abbott's former coach Tom Z and some in U.S. fed may have initially thought so. But I doubt that most U.S. fed members were fully behind Abbott being 'a masculine replacement for Weir.' It was clearly 'macho' black-costume-wearing Evan Lysacek who was trumped and groomed to be the faux 'masculine replacement' for Weir, and he (Evan) was. ...

That view is not how I feel, as the truth is more complicated. Weir and Abbott both had a lot of help being looked down on, and being considered politically incorrect. The sad thing for them both are the blown singles event Olympic medal opportunities in 2006 and 2010 respectively, which mainly rests on their shoulders. At least Abbott has the bronze in the 2014 Team event, but right now medals in the Olympic team event are relative in terms of their overall significance, despite being worthy and valuable for many skaters.

For some reason I still chuckle after the interview Johnny gave to a crowd of media referencing drug usage! Why would he do that knowing how the USFSA is just looking for a reason to shift from him to someone more in line with "their values" in Evan? It was still funny though!

 

[Inessence]

Fratianne, Kwan, Lysacek, Denis, particularly in terms of those he communicated well with. Obviously Frank certainly admired Bowman and respected his talent, but he ultimately was very disappointed in him. I think Bowman broke Frank's heart.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMRW1HmNiVI

Having coached Chris since he was in pre-school, I think Frank watched him grow up and loved him as a person and not only for his immense talent. He tried the tough-love approach by cutting Christopher off when his addiction grew out of control, and we all know what happened. Still, I picked him as Frank's second "favorite", as in "closest to his heart" skater.

 

[aftershocks]

For some reason I still chuckler after the Johnny gave an interview to a crowd of media referencing drug usage! Why would he do that knowing how the USFSA is just looking for a reason to shift from him to someone more in line with "there values" in Evan? It was still funny though!

Come on, at the time in question, Johnny was full of vim and vigor after working his way back to Nationals the hard way, This after being warned by a U.S. fed official that they weren't going to "do him any favors." Johnny rattled off a spur of the moment comment to a question by the media, which actually was about the difference between his free program and that of Ryan Bradley.

It was just a funny quip which Ryan surely got a good laugh out of. Most of Johnny's contemporaries loved his sense of humor. Goebel once said that, "Johnny Weir is the funniest person I know." The real heated 'rivalry' drama with Evan seriously was yet to fully materialize at that point. It was just that some old-fashioned conservatives in U.S. figure skating simply didn't care for Johnny's personality, even if they were gobsmacked by his talent, which some attempted to try and be dismissive of, yet unsuccessfully.

 

[bardtoob]

Bowman's free program in Alberville is better than I remember.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3yzq9HskYI

 

[aftershocks]

I never felt they were held down in favor of Evan.

Seriously? 2008 U.S. Nationals. Evan was injured and he skated sloppily in the fp, but the judges manufactured a 'tie,' which gave the win to Evan over Johnny. It was highway robbery. A number of skaters and even officials walked up to Johnny backstage and told him he should have been the winner. The excuse given for Johnny not winning was that Johnny only did a triple double for his planned 3-jump combo. Yeah right.

Of course, Evan then had to pull out of Worlds due to his injury which gave Johnny the better opportunity to medal. And Johnny became the only U.S. skater to medal at 2008 Worlds in Sweden. Evan was also given third place over Matt Savoie at 2005 U.S. Nats because Evan was the enthusiastic over-eager up-and-comer, and Matt's talent was never fully appreciated, even though Matt skated better than Evan and should have placed third over him that year. At 2005 Worlds, it was known that Johnny had a foot injury. U.S. fed were pumping for Evan over Johnny, despite Johnny having the best boffo programs in the men's discipline that year (even better than Stephane Lambiel's, the eventual champion since Plushy was out with an injury). Johnny had some missteps in his performances yes (partly due to injury), but the overall quality, as well as his stellar showing on the GP should have meant scoring politics were in his favor, but no. Evan did not skate well in the sp, but performed somewhat better in the fp and pulled out a medal. But that was also the championships where Jeff Buttle fell twice and copped silver. Johnny had some minor miscues but no falls. People weren't expecting a lot from Johnny, yet he did not skate that bad, especially in view of others' mistakes. Even Lambiel did not skate cleanly in his win. Clearly, U.S. fed politics were fully behind Evan (3rd place at U.S. Nats) and not Johnny (the U.S. champion). ISU will often fall in line behind a skater that is favored by their fed in such instances of more than one talented skater competing at the top. Goebel had placed second at 2005 U.S. Nationals, but he was not a factor at Worlds, where he placed 10th overall.

2010 U.S. Nationals. Johnny skated a great sp. But after his illness and poor performance at 2009 Nationals, which he was clobbered for in the standings, he was still in U.S. fed's doghouse. They would have preferred to send Ryan Bradley to the Olympics that year over Johnny, but Ryan did not perform well overall. And defending champion Abbott was way too good, better than everyone. Meanwhile, Evan made a mistake in his sp but was WTF placed in second ahead of a clean Johnny, who ended up third. And those results stayed the same in the fp. Some in U.S. fed would have loved for Johnny to drop to fourth. He didn't. But the politics and Johnny's outspoken comments to the prying media led to him being kept in 6th place at the Olympics behind 4th and 5th place skaters with mistakes.

Abbott had peaked at 2010 U.S. Nationals. He ended up faltering slightly in his 2010 Olympic sp, which sealed his fate with fans (he was described forever after as a headcase). Meanwhile, Abbott's 2008 GPF win was largely forgotten. As was his boffo wins at U.S. Nationals in 2009 and 2010. In 2009, Evan was favored at U.S. Nats. Curiously, Evan skated 1st in the sp that year, and Abbott skated immediately after him as if being tested. Abbott passed with flying colors and went on to his first U.S. championship win. Of course, the politics sometimes has to take a backseat when athlete performances are simply too good to dismiss for favoritism. Abbott was clearly more talented than Evan. And at 2009 and 2010 U.S. Nats, Abbott was still considered a promising up-and-comer, not a headcase.

After 2010 Olympics, Abbott didn't ever get back into U.S. fed's full graces. When Evan made mistakes, he had been coddled. When Abbott made mistakes, he was clobbered. So Abbott paid the price in 2011, and then he came back in 2012 to 2014 with some of his best performances, even though he never had great success at Worlds. The men's landscape internationally was changing, and Abbott was simply the best that the U.S. had in those years, as Adam Rippon had not yet found his mojo. Meanwhile, Ross Miner and Richard Dornbush who were talented and consistent skaters, ran into difficulties trying to acquire quads and maintain consistency.

 

[Fiero425]

^^^You covered it! Just never been a fan of Evan because he was obviously coddled & favored by all concerned! I was really ticked off with that BS about a tie and handing the GOLD to Evan! At least Karma gave Weir the lone medal at Worlds! Gawd, WTH happened to Meissner? She goes from World Champ. in '06 to being unable to stand up on the ice in subsequent seasons! She made the World Team in '08 only because Mirai and a couple other skaters weren't old enough at the time to represent us! That was so bizarre! It was too long after Kwan and Cohen; where were the other vets?

 

[bardtoob]

US Figure Skating liked Evan because he had grit. He kept trying when experience told him immediate success was very unlikely.

https://youtu.be/H14bBuluwB8

In my opinion, in the US grit is a trait passed down within a subset of individual families. It is not taught elsewhere, which is why achievement in everything is so hit and miss.

Conversely, I think it is more popularly part of child rearing in Asia and something that is an integral part of Eastern European Sports Psychology.

 

[berthesghost]

So when exactly did Bobeck take from Frank? As a junior? Was this right around the time Chris left?

 

[bardtoob]

So when exactly did Bobeck take from Frank? As a junior? Was this right around the time Chris left?

Hard to pinpoint. Kathy Casey was #14, Scotvold was #15, and Callaghan was #16 ... Per this fluff.

https://youtu.be/xejYd2hHT8s

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I was one of those people that complained about her boring style of skating! Over the years, she never seemed to attempt adding something extra! It was relatively the same choreography for every performance! There was the usual 3T/3T, coming around for the 3Lutz combo; and so it went! I was one to see every performance back then and I can remember her going out of her way twice over all those years to make a significant change in her programs! She had some kind of stress fracture in a leg just before the '97 season, leading into the '98 Nagano OG! To alleviate the possibility of aggravating it, Frank eliminated the 3T/3T combo and had her add an extra 3Loop with a double toe sequence that was so strange to see! She only did that a couple times during the GP and was back to "the usual" for Nat'ls and the Olympics! The other time, not sure what event, but she actually completed a 3Lutz/3Loop combo trying to get confidence to compete against the jumping prowess of her arch nemesis Irina Slutskaya! Even Sarah Hughes was pushing her to do more years later, but MK never extended herself thinking "I give the judges what they want to see!" The new scoring system would not help her IMO; she said herself once "I need to go home and look at what I need to do with this new system to compete against these new skaters!" She got out of the "ranks" just in time! I can still she her picking herself up off the ice at 2005 World Qualis; so embarrassing to see her like that!

To be fair, IJS has reinforced how difficult it is for female skaters to maintain any kind of dominance long term. There is always going to be a new kid on the block with something extra.

Given that she skated against three or four different generations of skaters, Kwan's reign was still remarkable.

 

[Fiero425]

To be fair, IJS has reinforced how difficult it is for female skaters to maintain any kind of dominance long term. There is always going to be a new kid on the block with something extra.

Given that she skated against three or four different generations of skaters, Kwan's reign was still remarkable.

I'll give all concerned "that" at least! I digress by saying it's the same reason I give more credit to Martina Navratilova's accomplishments, though they come up short in major championships to Serena Williams & Steffi Graf! MN was in the top echelon of women's tennis for literally 20 years! She owns 18 majors (tied w/ Evert), then set rec. winning 167 singles & 177 doubles' titles! No man or woman comes close; esp. with her consistency and dominance in all events in the majors often taking 2 or 3 titles! Her rivalries were vast and historic; Evert's being her biggest with 80 matches (Nav. d Evert 43-37)! The rest are a who's who of women's tennis; BJ King, Graf, Seles, Goolagong, Mandlikova, Court, Austin, & Jaeger! Serena Williams will have the longevity, but the rivals have been few and far between; many retired already!

 

[UGG]

Come on, at the time in question, Johnny was full of vim and vigor after working his way back to Nationals the hard way, This after being warned by a U.S. fed official that they weren't going to "do him any favors." Johnny rattled off a spur of the moment comment to a question by the media, which actually was about the difference between his free program and that of Ryan Bradley.

It was just a funny quip which Ryan surely got a good laugh out of. Most of Johnny's contemporaries loved his sense of humor. Goebel once said that, "Johnny Weir is the funniest person I know." The real heated 'rivalry' drama with Evan seriously was yet to fully materialize at that point. It was just that some old-fashioned conservatives in U.S. figure skating simply didn't care for Johnny's personality, even if they were gobsmacked by his talent, which some attempted to try and be dismissive of, yet unsuccessfully.

Johnny didn't skate well at a lot of competitions and did not maximize his possible COP score. Isn't he a 3 time US Champ? He was 2nd place at the Olympics short program at one time. It is like you are blaming everyone but him.

If anything, was't Abbot left off a World Team at one point, after some weird wonky Nationals finish? That never happened to Johnny. Evan was retired when that happened, also so...you cannot blame Evan.

 

[aftershocks]

It is like you are blaming everyone but him.

Then you are only interpreting what you want to interpret from the facts I laid out. You also have chosen to ignore where I said that the major responsibility for Johnny's competitive losses is his own in many instances. I don't say that though for U.S. Nats 2008 where Johnny should have won, and where he gave his all, nor for 2005 Worlds where he should have medaled because he skated better than or on a par with those who had medaled, and he had the best programs. At 2004 Worlds, Johnny had great programs and he really should have medaled there, but again politics kept him in 5th. His performance level was excellent, but Worlds was in Germany and that helped Germany's Stefan Lindemann place 3rd, while up-and-coming Stephane Lambiel was rewarded with 4th with a quad, despite making other errors. Even at 2008 Worlds, Johnny skated lights out in the sp and arguably should have been first in the sp, but since Jeff Buttle skated well too and was politically better liked, the advantage went to Buttle in the sp. Johnny was not quite as clean in the fp so it was easy for the judges to have him in third overall at 2008 Worlds.

Clearly Johnny was not well-liked by many in U.S. fed, and not being politically well-liked definitely impacts scoring decisions. When Johnny applied himself and his talent was on full display, he shined, and sometimes he won because his talent was magical. In his 3-straight U.S. Nationals wins, Johnny was simply the best and he could not be denied. But those who didn't like him, always had their eyes on others they could reward over Johnny. Once Johnny (as the presiding U.S. men's champion) pushed the envelope with the famous Blackbook photos in fall 2006 (one depicted him wearing a skirt), there were many in U.S. fed who were thereafter bent on ensuring that Johnny would never again be U.S. champion. And they succeeded. It was after those photos of Johnny appeared that Evan began talking about being macho and wearing black. Of course, Evan also put in the hard work and ended up landing a quad-triple at 2007 U.S. Nats which he won outright, fairly.

Meanwhile, Johnny was at a low level emotionally after his breakthrough The Swan sp of 2005-2006 season, choreographed by Tatiana Tarasova, et al. At the same time, there were weird people who felt that program was too 'effeminate,' even despite it's groundbreaking popularity. In any case, efforts were made by those advising Johnny to present a more 'masculine' image in 2006-2007 season. But Johnny actually hated the fp that was created for him by Marina Anissina, and so he was in a funk most of that season, with little support for simply pursuing being who he was as a person on the ice.* Except for Johnny's exhibition programs that season where he explored different sides of himself and shined. (*Flash forward to recent years, and we can see how important it can be as a skater to be supported and encouraged to share the truth of who you are, e.g., Eric Radford and Adam Rippon).

In any case, by 2007 U.S. Nats, Johnny seemed worn out emotionally and he didn't skate as well as he was capable. Even after 2006 Olympics, Johnny had considered quitting after he received death threats. Anissina was among Johnny's Russian friends who convinced him to keep competing. Overall, Johnny simply did not play by the rules. He did not try to hide his personality nor be politically correct, and that did not help him re the political landscape. He made the 2010 Olympic team by sheer strength of determination, will, and hard work.

Of course Johnny made a number of wrong choices which hampered his career. He also did not have strong drive as a competitor. Contrary to what some may believe, Johnny tended to be modest about his extraordinary talent. Since he only began skating and training seriously around age 12, he felt that he missed out on gaining crucial competitive experience in the lower level ranks. Still due to his extraordinary talent, Johnny won Junior Worlds only four years after beginning to train as a figure skater. That is unheard of! Johnny's innate athleticism and his skill as a young equestrian helped him excel in figure skating, especially in terms of his exquisite posture. His erect back on jump landings and his effortless ride-out were absolutely to die-for. Even better than textbook perfect, at his best.

 

[aftershocks]

If anything, was't Abbot left off a World Team at one point, after some weird wonky Nationals finish? That never happened to Johnny. Evan was retired when that happened, also so...you cannot blame Evan.

What are you even trying to imply with these comments?? Who 'blamed' Evan for anything?? It's U.S. fed who favored Evan. I don't blame Evan for doing everything in his power to excel by any means necessary. That's his legacy as a skater.

Unfortunately, due to Plushy's hissy fit at 2010 Olympics, Evan is often unfairly blamed for not attempting a quad at those games. People conveniently forget that few men were competing quads at that time, because they weren't absolutely needed to win. The risk/reward ratio was negligible. Of course that all changed post-2010 Olympics. People also forget that Evan did compete and land quads on a number of occasions.

And please check the history. Johnny was fairly left off the 2009 World team because he'd been sick and he didn't skate that well. Still, he did not skate horribly bad enough to be dumped on as a 3-time U.S. National champion with talent and experience. I believe that those who disliked Johnny delighted in being able to keep him down in the standings when he messed up. The whole 'what happened at 2011 U.S. Nationals' does not need to be repeated. I've discussed it plenty of times. Suffice to say that Ryan Bradley* was favored over Jeremy Abbott. Why in the world would you even bring up Evan in that context?

Obviously, it doesn't follow that what happened to Abbott necessarily had to happen to Johnny in the same way. I don't understand why you are attempting to make blanket analogies and simplistic statements and misinterpretations of my comments.

ETA:
*And I absolutely love Ryan Bradley, so no, I'm not blaming him for anything either!