Who was Frank's 2nd favorite student of all time

[savchenkoboss]

With the great Frank Carroll announcing his retirement looking over his long career and the number of very close student-skater relationships he had, who do you think was his all time 2nd favorite? I am sure every single person agrees Linda Fratianne is forever his personal #1, they literally were like father and daughter and he is so attached to Linda he still gripes about her 1980 Olympic Gold medal loss to this day, and talks about how she should have won every single worlds, Olympics, or Nationals she ever skated, even the 76 ones, or any future ones she probably would have skated had she not retired in 1980. He however had many other skaters he had wonderful and very close personal relationships with though- Kwan, Lysacek, Chin (despite the off and on, he always heavily supported her publicly when he spoke), Bowman (before the fall out), Bebe Liang, Denis Ten, Gold (before the fall out). Who was his all time 2nd favorite pupil? I think it would probably be between Kwan and Lysacek, maybe Lysacek since he ended up bringing Frank his elusive 2nd Olympic Gold.

 

[blue_idealist]

I would say Kwan, even though they eventually parted ways.

 

[savchenkoboss]

I would say Kwan, even though they eventually parted ways.

Kwan left him (and cost herself the 2002 OGM in the process). He never left her, and never would have left her. He loved her.

 

[VGThuy]

I don't know if this can be ranked in a strict numbered hierarchy. It's like listing your favorite siblings or children. You have different relationships and memories with all of them. I think he was the most emotionally invested in Linda Fratianne (his first big student to make it to the Olympics and high level) and Chris Bowman. After those two experiences he learned to not have such a personal investment in his students though I am sure like all human relationships, personal feelings and connections formed.

ETA: I love the way he described the differences between Kwan and Fratianne. He said imagine we're all in front of bleachers that go way up high. If Frank said to climb to the top bleacher and just jump down, he said Linda would just run and do it without question. He said Kwan would run up, then reach the top bleacher, then think about it, then run back down and ask him why he's asking her to do it, then he'd explain it to her, then she'd think about it some more, then she'd run up and do it.

 

[savchenkoboss]

I don't know if this can be ranked in a strict numbered hierarchy. It's like listing your favorite siblings or children. You have different relationships and memories with all of them. I think he was the most emotionally invested in Linda Fratianne (his first big student to make it to the Olympics and high level) and Chris Bowman. After those two experiences he learned to not have such a personal investment in his students though I am sure like all human relationships, personal feelings and connections formed.

I think he knows he got too close to Linda for his own good. He admits he is still heartbroken over her loss in Lake Placid even today decades later and brings it up in every interview he does. Like I said she is like a daughter to him I think. And he was so attached to the undisciplined, drug addicted, alcoholic Bowman, and to be so close to such a troubled individual ended up affecting Frank emotionally too, especialy when their relationship soured. So he wisely pulled back a bit from his future students, while still having close relationships with them, not being so close it had a deep emotional affect on him.

 

[VGThuy]

I also think with Michelle Kwan the difference was that she had her family and had Karen to lean on so she wasn’t craving the same sort of family connection from him and probably treated him like a highly loved and respected mentor/Professor/coach growing up. Evan Lysacek seemed to be a very focused and driven person and I think they had a more professional understanding and mature relationship that Frank was well-equipped to deal with through the more disappointing times.

 

[arakwafan2006]

I disagree about his #1.

 

[savchenkoboss]

I disagree about his #1.

Seriously? I didnt think there was a soul on earth who would question Linda being Frank's all time #1. He even dresses many of his skaters in her hand me downs, and talks about her in every interview he does, and how she was supposably robbed in the biggest highway robbery ever result of Olympic Gold in Lake Placid. Who do you think is his #1 then?

 

[alchemy void]

Kostner

 

[berthesghost]

I also think with Michelle Kwan the difference was that she had her family and had Karen to lean on so she wasn’t craving the same sort of family connection from him and probably treated him like a highly loved and respected mentor/Professor/coach growing up. Evan Lysacek seemed to be a very focused and driven person and I think they had a more professional understanding and mature relationship that Frank was well-equipped to deal with through the more disappointing times.

the Fratiannes seemed very closely knit. Linda’s sister even made frequent appearances in her fluff pieces.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Kwan left him (and cost herself the 2002 OGM in the process). He never left her, and never would have left her. He loved her.

Totes. He said he wasnt even fully understanding her departure.

I dont fault her tho..she had a long career that started early... so if at some point a skater needs something new (coaching) for whatever the reason its totally understandable.

Dont get me wrong not like Nicole Bobek where she changed monthly.... but to have a career that long and she really only had 2 coaches..... seems normal.

 

[VGThuy]

the Fratiannes seemed very closely knit. Linda’s sister even made frequent appearances in her fluff pieces.

That was before my time and I haven't really watched Linda's fluffs or performances. I was just trying to explain why Frank and Michelle kept things mostly professional.

Totes. He said he wasnt even fully understanding her departure.

I dont fault her tho..she had a long career that started early... so if at some point a skater needs something new (coaching) for whatever the reason its totally understandable.

Dont get me wrong not like Nicole Bobek where she changed monthly.... but to have a career that long and she really only had 2 coaches..... seems normal.

Kwan just had really bad timing that seemed almost self-destructive. She waited until the season already started to decide she needed a change, did not have a replacement coach, and didn't even have a new short program for that season. In retrospect, there were some red flags going on.

 

[savchenkoboss]

the Fratiannes seemed very closely knit. Linda’s sister even made frequent appearances in her fluff pieces.

One reason Linda and Frank were so close is Frank was one of Virgina (Linda's late mom) best friends. And Linda and Virginia were inseperable. So by extension Linda and Frank of course had a particularly close coach/student relationship.

 

[blue_idealist]

Kwan left him (and cost herself the 2002 OGM in the process). He never left her, and never would have left her. He loved her.

I couldn't remember the exact details of why she left, but this thread helps to clarify things.

 

[bardtoob]

.

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

That was before my time and I haven't really watched Linda's fluffs or performances. I was just trying to explain why Frank and Michelle kept things mostly professional.



Kwan just had really bad timing that seemed almost self-destructive. She waited until the season already started to decide she needed a change, did not have a replacement coach, and didn't even have a new short program for that season. In retrospect, there were some red flags going on.

Same for Kim. Had Orser been around Kim woud have had more stuff in her program. It was beautiful but had empty spots. Sot using the Russian method filled every inch with foot work, spins, etc. Coupled with biased PCS scores gave Sot the win.

 

[Marco]

Out of all his top students, Evan and Michelle were probably the most hard working, and Chris (Bowman) and Gracie were probably the most talented.

I don't know who his favorite or second favorite is but I do think he made the most money off of Michelle?! He coached her during the height of skating's popularity and she was constantly winning all sorts of competitions.

 

[savchenkoboss]

Out of all his top students, Evan and Michelle were probably the most hard working, and Chris (Bowman) and Gracie were probably the most talented.

I don't know who his favorite or second favorite is but I do think he made the most money off of Michelle?! He coached her during the height of skating's popularity and she was constantly winning all sorts of competitions.

What is ironic is I imagine he found Bowman and Gold totally exasperating but in totally different ways.

Bowman is lazy and has no discipline. He actually was quite the competitor though, which is often how he pulled things out of his ass seemingly impressive in competition, despite being woefully unprepared often. Gold is very hard working, disciplined, in addition to being extremely talented, but just a giant headcase in competition, and Frank didn't seem able to help in anyway in that.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I recall reading a quote from Kurt Browning that went something like if Bowman had actually trained hard, the rest of the men would have been in real trouble. That is how talented he was.

 

[bardtoob]

I recall reading a quote from Kurt Browning that went something like if Bowman had actually trained hard, the rest of the men would have been in real trouble. That is how talented he was.

Bowman trained with Frank as a kindergartner on up. I am inclined to believe that Bowman's technique was set by about age 12 or 13, in terms of both compulsory figures and freeskating ... Then Bowman got the boy version of the puberty monster, where he completely lost his mind while his body increased in strength and endurance.

 

[vgerdes]

I recall reading a quote from Kurt Browning that went something like if Bowman had actually trained hard, the rest of the men would have been in real trouble. That is how talented he was.

Chris Bowman was my first serious, hard-core figure skating crush. I think his talent was such that he could have beaten anybody if his work ethic had even come close to matching it. When he was on, he was pure magic. Yes, he was a deeply flawed human being. But the way his career - and ultimately, his life - ended broke my heart regardless.

 

[berthesghost]

Well there always has to be some overriding narrative that haunts these skaters. If Bobek had worked harder she just would have landed more 3flutzes not gotten a true lutz, and then that would become her tag line. Look at Kim at all her success and still people popping off about a damn non-pointed toe

Chris was like Evan (stop laughing!) in the sense that iirc they each had a scary skid3x that gave them fits but solid 3/3s always kept them in the mix. Working harder would have moved Chris from the 50/50 wish and prayer rate with the 3x to Evan’s 75/25 rate of success but people wouldn’t forget it, even if he won more medals.

 

[savchenkoboss]

Dominance is about timing, momentum, the right support team, and some luck anyway, not just talent, ability, mental strength, and hard work. Kwan wouldn't have dominated if she had been born 5-10 years later and competed against Kim and Asada instead of erratic Slutskaya and Suguri. Kim wouldn't have dominated if she had been born 5-10 years later and had to compete against the Russian machines of today rather than erratic Asada and unartistic Ando. Witt wouldn't have dominated if she were born either 5 years earlier when figures were way more important or 5 years later when jump content became much more important.

Chris was not in a good era to dominate even at max effort. He had to compete with Browning who was both a more talented jumper with an amazing 3axel, quads, and 3-3s galore, and had stellar choreography and was an equally great performer and entertainer to Bowman. And also Petrenko who was also stronger jumper with a stellar money 3axel and the most solid 3 axel-3 toe combo of the 90s, along with a classical style the judges loved even if he lacked Bowan or Browning's versatility. So even with a max work ethic he never dominates, maybe sneaks out 1 world title and has a shot of winning the 92 Olympics since the favorites including winner Petrenko bombed there. The Bowman fans who say he could have dominated that particular era are delusional. Now had he been born when Lysacek and Buttle dominated in the late 2000s under a system that more rewards his strengths, and competing with 2 leaders who have nothing he didnt have at his best including worse 3axels, it would be a potential different story.

 

[VGThuy]

Many skaters would have developed differently if they were born 5-10 years later and who knows how skating would have developed if those skaters were not in the time period in which they existed. Also, Kim was incredibly inspired by Kwan in Nagano.

 

[bardtoob]

He had to compete with Browning who was both a more talented jumper with an amazing 3axel, quads, and 3-3s galore, and had stellar choreography and was an equally great performer and entertainer to Bowman.

Browning directly said on more than one occasion that Christopher Bowman's talent intimidated him.

https://youtu.be/PgW9Qj3nOWA

 

[Fiero425]

Kwan left him (and cost herself the 2002 OGM in the process). He never left her, and never would have left her. He loved her.

That was so bizarre and I'll try to remember what happened as I recall it! Irina Slutskaya was in Kwan's head by then, dropping competition after competition to her even when not deserved! The judges had obviously made a decision who the favorite was around that time! There was a TV event still on the schedule then called "Masters Of F.S.;" more an exhibition comp. like the Japan Open where interpretation of music is more important than the jumps! It was that FALL and Kwan had already dropped a warm up in Australia, the 2001 Goodwill Games to Irina! Slutskaya did her thing with 3 triples and a double axel of a beautiful piece of music; "Samson & Delilah!" Kwan preceded her and doubled her 3Flip in "East Of Eden!" She fired Frank that night! I'm not saying it was the performance that put her over the edge, but he was gone with no explanation! She finished the season losing Canada to Sarah Hughes, The GPF to Irina, and even though the fave at SLC, only the judges could save her! They tried their best by putting Michelle in 1st place after the SP even though she 2-footed her 3Flip! That changed the course of the medaling since MK propped up meaning she could win GOLD even if she lost the LP as long as it wasn't Irina and Sarah! Sarah won the LP fair and square with 2 amazing 3/3 combos, but if Irina had been in 1st after the SP, the GOLD would have gone to her instead of Hughes! MK ended up with the Bronze due to dropping below Irina (Silver) and Sarah (Gold)! ANYONE?

 

[VGThuy]

I think all the talk of losing in Nagano, the lead-up to 2002, and the way the two previous seasons went for Kwan despite winning both those Worlds got to her head. She seemed desperate and didn't know how to go about it. People kept complaining about her style of skating too and she didn't know how to change that. She was in a much better head space the following season when she was more "f*ck it, this is me and this is how I want to skate".

 

[savchenkoboss]

Browning directly said on more than one occasion that Christopher Bowman's talent intimidated him.

https://youtu.be/PgW9Qj3nOWA

Bowman might have been more overall talented in some ways but he was not as talented a jumper as Browning or even Petrenko. As already noted his 3axel technique was poor and those were 2 guys who did that jump easily and could even do it easily with a 3toe anytime too. Browning even had a quad and variety of hard 3/3s. And at the end of the day jumps are what won back then first and foremost as long as the rest of your skating was moderately good.

Lysacek was more fortunate and better timed to peak at a time Plushenko and Lambiel were old and way past their primes and Takahashi coming back from a major injury so there were no top jumpers besides inconsistent Joubert, so you could win even with one if the worst 3axels (even worse than Bowman's 20 years earlier, even if his mental toughness meant he rotated and landed it a bit more than Chris his) and no quad with just an all around smartly designed program.

 

[bardtoob]

Bowman might have been more overall talented in some ways but he was not as talented a jumper as Browning or even Petrenko.

They were in prime athletic shape while Chris was rather plump.

Chris had a fantastic 3A when he wasn't fat, which probably also means he was using cocaine, which deadens one's appetite.

https://youtu.be/FkQ7xmDvmrQ

 

[Fiero425]

I think all the talk of losing in Nagano, the lead-up to 2002, and the way the two previous seasons went for Kwan despite winning both those Worlds got to her head. She seemed desperate and didn't know how to go about it. People kept complaining about her style of skating too and she didn't know how to change that. She was in a much better head space the following season when she was more "f*ck it, this is me and this is how I want to skate".

I was one of those people that complained about her boring style of skating! Over the years, she never seemed to attempt adding something extra! It was relatively the same choreography for every performance! There was the usual 3T/3T, coming around for the 3Lutz combo; and so it went! I was one to see every performance back then and I can remember her going out of her way twice over all those years to make a significant change in her programs! She had some kind of stress fracture in a leg just before the '97 season, leading into the '98 Nagano OG! To alleviate the possibility of aggravating it, Frank eliminated the 3T/3T combo and had her add an extra 3Loop with a double toe sequence that was so strange to see! She only did that a couple times during the GP and was back to "the usual" for Nat'ls and the Olympics! The other time, not sure what event, but she actually completed a 3Lutz/3Loop combo trying to get confidence to compete against the jumping prowess of her arch nemesis Irina Slutskaya! Even Sarah Hughes was pushing her to do more years later, but MK never extended herself thinking "I give the judges what they want to see!" The new scoring system would not help her IMO; she said herself once "I need to go home and look at what I need to do with this new system to compete against these new skaters!" She got out of the "ranks" just in time! I can still she her picking herself up off the ice at 2005 World Qualis; so embarrassing to see her like that!