Who is the skater who in their career most benefitted from mistakes from others

[savchenkoboss]

Well good for you, but I do know if we're talking about people's expectations, people thought both Kwan and Irina could have skated those programs better than THAT. Kwan was even doing triple flips in that December Pro-Am competition during Fields of Gold.

As for Maria, 2001 Worlds SP skate was NOT the same as 2000 Worlds even if both were technically clean. To me, it's very clear by just watching. Butyrskaya looked much more frightened in 2001 whereas in 2000 it was transcendent. She also had a shaky landing on her combo and a very pitched forward landing on that double axel. I also think the program suffered a bit because it was a repeat and was already skated perfectly in the season prior. Kind of like Kwan's "The Feeling Begins" and many other programs from skaters where it doesn't seem as special the second time around. The ordinals didn't show a consensus either.

Maria's skating was regressing a bit, but I grant that if the judges really wanted to, they could have held up her up a bit and shown her the benefit of the doubt. I just think Maria made losing that benefit of the doubt a bit easier as her skating was becoming shakier and shakier and other skaters were overtaking her in the non-jump elements. I think what helped Hughes was that the judges didn't care as much about her Lutz entrance and that major UR she had on that Lutz as they should have but Hughes was also improving her skating and showing a lot more flow than Butyrskaya. I do think Butyskaya skating well in the LP brought her back to their graces, but by that time with that QR ranking, it was a bit late. Do you think Butyrskaya should have beaten Slutskaya in the LP and thus vaulted her back into the bronze? I remember that one judge put Kwan below Hughes in the LP for Kwan's near-perfect and very inspired skate.

I thought Irina's LP was very sloppy, she had numerous smaller mistakes even if she landed the big combo, a bad step out of another jump combo she tried; and artistically (never her strength) weaker than usual. I was honestly a bit surprised she got 2 or 3 1st place ordinals for that particular skate after Kwan's perfect skate, which I think shows her positive momentum going into the worlds which was in total contrast to Maria's negative momentum, and Hughes's who was also seen on the upswing by that point and had positive buzz going in. I could see myself having Maria 2nd in the LP. I might have given marks something like:

Kwan- 5.8 technical, 5.9 artistic
Butyrskaya- 5.6 technical, 5.9 artistic
Slutskaya- 5.8 technical, 5.7 artistic
Hughes- 5.6, 5.6

Maria didnt have as much technical content as the other three, some of her landings were shaky although they were all technically speaking clean, and doubling the second lutz was a big miscue, but with the passion, sophistication, and musicality of her program I still might have given her the nod for 2nd over Irina's flawed and jump oriented skate.
It is moot though as I would have had Maria atleast 4th in the short program over Hughes (similar to SLC, although in SLC I might have had some others like Suguri and Sebeysten over both) which already would be enough anyway. I definitely would have given her the bronze at these worlds overall over Hughes either way.

 

[ilovepaydays]

He's not an option in the poll - but I'm not sure anyone benefited more consistently from the mistakes of others than Philippe Candeloro. Yes, he did his best, but he still needed a bit of help.....and he got it for pretty much every World and Olympic medal that he has.

 

[bardtoob]

He's not an option in the poll - but I'm not sure anyone benefited more consistently from the mistakes of others than Philippe Candeloro. Yes, he did his best, but he still needed a bit of help.....and he got it for pretty much every World and Olympic medal that he has.

https://youtu.be/xsGyPUXHrNA

I always thought it was his choice of pants ... His very Romantic looks!


... Do you think he knew he resembled some Americans

https://youtu.be/ivi941jVyM8

https://youtu.be/N0-eoInIrX8

 

[savchenkoboss]

He's not an option in the poll - but I'm not sure anyone benefited more consistently from the mistakes of others than Philippe Candeloro. Yes, he did his best, but he still needed a bit of help.....and he got it for pretty much every World and Olympic medal that he has.

Well all except the 94 silver. I dont think anyone at that event could have beaten him except an on fire Stojko (who did). Urmanov maybe could have pushed him to bronze, but he would have had to skate an even better LP than Lillehammer IMO, and he rarely even skates as good a LP as Lillehammer.

 

[berthesghost]

Is that a joke? Skating history is chock-a-block full of people who went on to entire careers/lives outside of skating after the Olys. It’s a perfectly normal course. But whatever the color of oly medal, Hughes was so done with skating after slc, physically, mentally, emotionally. Equating her with skaters who actually had no other interests or skills outside of skating but were screwed over by ISU decisions is kinda rude. Like she seriously would have given up Yale if only Ice Wars were still on tv

 

[VGThuy]

She actually may have cashed in if pro skating was that lucrative and then started her college career afterwards because at its height pro skating did offer some big bucks that one could use as a nice little nest egg. She did take a gap year to do SOI and other pro opportunities. But her family seems to be high achieving with an eye on the Ivy Leagues so maybe not.

 

[Areski]

Chen made no mistake at the 96 worlds. She never made mistakes, but often benefitted from others. I didnt vote, but if I had voted I would have voted Chen, who every medal she ever won was through lots of others mistakes minus the 96 worlds silver.

Maria popped one triple salchow, and badly stumbled out of an aborted other triple salchow at the end of a sequence at the 2000 worlds.

Not sure whether it bears much importance but I think that Lu Chen did not complete her necessary number of rotations in one spin. Pretty minor though, her spins nonetheless were never remarkable and I guess it was an afterthought in that era.

But who knows? Maybe better spins would get her few ordinals more in her favour even then?

 

[savchenkoboss]

Not sure whether it bears much importance but I think that Lu Chen did not complete her necessary number of rotations in one spin. Pretty minor though, her spins nonetheless were never remarkable and I guess it was an afterthought in that era.

But who knows? Maybe better spins would get her few ordinals more in her favour even then?

I think it is very possible Chen may have won more big titles from 93-96 if she had better spins. Then again none of Kwan, Baiul, Kerrigan, had stellar spins, but probably still all better than Chen's. It is hard to say, I am not sure how big a thing that was in the judging, but it might be a reason she was a perennial bridesmaid, and needed others mistakes usually to even medal.

Another factor is probably the Chinese fed. was still weak at that point. Considering the overscoring of some of their pairs, particularly the Zhangs, their fed. probably learned to play the game, but unfortunately for Chen probably not as well when she competed.

 

[savchenkoboss]

She actually may have cashed in if pro skating was that lucrative and then started her college career afterwards because at its height pro skating did offer some big bucks that one could use as a nice little nest egg. She did take a gap year to do SOI and other pro opportunities. But her family seems to be high achieving with an eye on the Ivy Leagues so maybe not.

Yes that is my thinking too. And remember Paul Wylie, a stellar academic, even ended up deferring from Harvard twice, and eventually giving it up altogether, since he was pro at the height of the skating boom.

Either way nobody prior to 2002 expected Hughes to even go pro post SLC, let alone give skating up altogether. Of course retrospect can be different, but that was the thinking at the time.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I always found it funny that compared to Trenary, Yamaguchi was considered the athlete. Yet compared to Ito and Harding, she was considered the artist.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Rosalyn Sumners reign started when three skaters, Priscilla Hill, Vicki DeVries, and Elaine Zayak, all tanked at the 1982 US Championships. Sumners was apparently carrying a hip injury at the time, and only planned to do one triple and a bunch of double axels in her free skate. That content was enough to take her to the national title, and may have cleared a path in the mind of the US powers that be, to promote her in favour of Zayak, to the Sarajevo Olympics.

Zayak came back a month later to win the 1982 World title, but an ankle injury took her out of the 1983 World Championships. Sumners ended up winning the title ahead of Claudia Leistner and Elena Vodorezova, both of whom had their own problems the next season, and were shadows of themselves in Yugoslavia.

 

[savchenkoboss]

I always found it funny that compared to Trenary, Yamaguchi was considered the athlete. Yet compared to Ito and Harding, she was considered the artist.

What was she compared to Kerrigan?

 

[VGThuy]

I always found it funny that compared to Trenary, Yamaguchi was considered the athlete. Yet compared to Ito and Harding, she was considered the artist.

It sort of shows that this is really all relative.

 

[bardtoob]

I always found it funny that compared to Trenary, Yamaguchi was considered the athlete. Yet compared to Ito and Harding, she was considered the artist.

What was she compared to Kerrigan?

"So much better"

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

What was she compared to Kerrigan?

Consistent.

 

[Marco]

Not sure whether it bears much importance but I think that Lu Chen did not complete her necessary number of rotations in one spin. Pretty minor though, her spins nonetheless were never remarkable and I guess it was an afterthought in that era.

But who knows? Maybe better spins would get her few ordinals more in her favour even then?

Yes, she spun her best spins at 1995 Worlds and won it when it was close. She spun worse at 1996 Worlds and didn't win it when it was close.

It wasn't a "mistake" though, more so a weakness. She typically spun poorly.

 

[savchenkoboss]

Yes, she spun her best spins at 1995 Worlds and won it when it was close. She spun worse at 1996 Worlds and didn't win it when it was close.

It wasn't a "mistake" though, more so a weakness. She typically spun poorly.

This is all true, but even at the 95 worlds she would have lost if Bobek didnt fall twice. And even if she had done the 2nd lutz she definitely doesnt win if Bobek had stayed upright. It was pretty clear after the short the event was Bobek's to lose in the judges eyes, and the opening triple flutz-triple toe made that even more clear. Markova or Bonaly might have beaten her had they gone totally clean too.