Which pair or dance team had the hardest competition during reign

[bumblebeevich]

Since there is far less interest in the pairs and dance and the history of both is more recent I will combine the two for this one. Which pair or dance team had the hardest overall competition during the reign. I think the main candidates would be:

Klimova & Ponomarenko- They faced supreme competition with Bestiamanova & Bukin, Duchensays, and Usova & Zhulin for years, along with heavy politics in favor of B&B and D&D.

Gritschuk & Platov- They faced Usova & Zhulin at the start of their reign (and comebacking Torvill & Dean), a very strong team like Krylova & Ovsiannikov, and numerous solid veteran or great up and coming likes like Bourne & Kraatz, Anissina & Peizerat, Moniotte & Lavanchy, Rahkammo & Kokko.

Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze- They faced Artur Dmitriev, Shen & Zhao, Sale & Pelletier, Totmiana & Marinin, and an insane amount of politics and judging and ISU bias against them, particularly when facing the corruptive and massively overrated Sale & Pelletier.

Gordeeva & Grinkov- They had to face Valova & Vasiliev for years, then later Miskutienok & Dmitriev. Also faced Selezneva & Makarov, Brasseur & Eisler, and Bechke & Petrov for many years in both amateurs and pros.

Virtue & Moir- They faced a slew of strong veterans teams plus Davis & White in their early rise to the top, Davis & White for many years, and now Papadakis & Cizeron.

Valova & Vasiliev- They had to face Baess & Theirbach, Underhill & Martini, or Gordeeva & Grinkov in winning and competing for all their titles.

Anissina & Peizerat- They had to face Krylova & Ovsiannikov early in their time challenging for the top, and massive politics for both Fusar Poli & Margalio and Lobacheva & Averbuhk, and a field that was always 4 or 5 strong at the top.

Savchenko & Szolkowy- They had to face virtually unwinnable situations at their 2 Olympics with Shen & Zhaos return and Volosozhar & Trankov at their peak on home ice. They beat teams like the Zhangs, V&T, Duhamel & Radford, Pang & Tong for their 5 world titles.

Volosozhar & Trankov- They had to face a perennial judges pet like Savchenko & Szolkowy and politics against them, plus Duhamel & Radford, and strong competition from countrymen Stolbova & Klimov during their time on top.

Usova & Zhulin- They didnt really have a reign but since their are a limited number of worthy options I include them since from 1991-1994 they only won the 1993 Europeans and Worlds, and were literally 1 judge from winning all of the 1991 Worlds (and by extension probably the 1992 Olympics too), 1994 Europeans, and 1994 Worlds. And faced an incredibly difficult field with the politically propped up Duchensays, Klimova & Ponomarenko, Torvill & Dean, and Gritschuk & Platov.

I exclude the following since:

Torvill & Dean- While many regard them as the best ever their competition wasnt really hard at all facing politically ostracized Blumberg & Seibert, aging way past their prime Moiseeva & Minenkkov, pre prime developing Bestiamonva & Bukin, and 1 year of baby Klimova & Ponomarenko.

Bestiamova & Bukin- No real competition, only K&P who the judges and Russian fed. protected them from.

Sale & Pelletier- The politics was so heavily in their favor their situation was incredibly easy even if their competition should have been hard, it really wasnt because of politics.

Shen & Zhao and Totmianina & Marinin- Both teams really had no competition in their years on top except each other and they were alternatively hurt, injured, or retired most of them.

Miskutienok & Dmitriev- Their only competition in the years they actually were winning was Brasseur & Eisler and they bombed badly at each of the 92 Olympics, 92 worlds, 91 worlds. Gordeeva & Grinkov werent competing these years, Bechke & Petrov were never a threat to them, and Shishkova & Naumov were a baby team these years.

Davis & White- Except for Virtue & Moir they really had nobody else within a country mile. All the veteran teams were injured and out of form for the 2010 Olympics, and the field after they retired was ghastly weak behind the top 2.

 

[briancoogaert]

I answered Virtue and Moir. With Davis&White or Papadakis&Cizeron, this amazingly talented couple had to be top form to win.

 

[blue_idealist]

I voted for G/P, since they had to face all of those teams you mentioned, and I think that was just a bit harder than having to face P/C and D/W. At least V/M knew they were almost guaranteed silver each time.

 

[angelflies]

I voted Usova & Zhulin since they were included and they had an incredibly difficult and almost impossible situation. And so much bad luck as outlined. It is amazing a team like that could end up with only 1 world title and no Olympic gold somehow.

 

[bumblebeevich]

My vote went to Valova & Vasiliev. Think of it, they both lost a worlds right after winning an Olympics, and beat the Olympic Champions at the world immediately after the Games. They dethroned Baess & Theirbach who were a strong and technically dominant team who had been the dominant the previous 2 years leading into the 83 worlds LP, and who skated extremely well right before. They had to fend off Underhill & Martini who had massive backing from both fans, the federation, the ISU, and who would go on to a dominant pro career. They had to compete with a strong and consistent team like Selezneva & Makarov for years, and hold off the Carruthers who had the skates of their lives to win in Sarajevo. They also had to face the new darlings of Russian pairs Gordeeva & Grinkov who strongly had the backing of the powerful Russian fed over them and any politics in their favor, and who many regard the best team ever. They still held their own and beat them several times like at the 86 Europeans, 87 Nationals, and 88 worlds.

They were never the favorites or darlings of the fans, the judges, or even their own federation really who always preferred someone else on top or to make it instead, and yet they were always fighters and continued winning medals and titles.

 

[montrealsurfa]

Virtue & Moir. It is true they dont face much depth at all, and never did except for maybe 2008-2009. However in ice dance depth doesnt mean much since even in fields that have way better 3rd and 4th best teams than just people like Peizerat & Bouzat, Chock & Bates, or Bobrova & Soloviev, the judges, politics, and protocal of dance keep them pretty seperated from the 1st and 2nd placed teams anyway. The only thing that really matters is your top competition and they faced one of the best teams of all time with Davis & White and now are again with Papadakis & Cizeron.

 

[montrealsurfa]

When politics are factored in it would probably be Klimova & Ponomarenko though. The judges and Russian fed always wanted it to be someone else over them. First both Bestiamonva & Bukin and Anneneko & Stretenski, then both the Duchensays and Usova & Zhulin. They won a whole bunch of titles, medals, and dominated inspite of the politics being against them and for others their whole career almost, both at home and abroad.

 

[gk_891]

Was the Soviet Fed against K&P? I remember they won Soviet Nationals in 1985 as well as Moscow News. Both times they defeated B&B. And in 1986, they won the OSP at both Europeans and Worlds (as well as 1987 Worlds). And they lost the 1986 Worlds FD by a 5-4 decision which seemed to have cemented B&B's position at the top. By the time K&P reached the top though, D&D were indeed gaining a lot of favour both audience-wise and politics-wise.

 

[montrealsurfa]

You could be right. Maybe in 85-86 the Russian fed support was equal and they just let the international judges decide. I think by 87-88 the Russian fed was completely on Bestiamanova & Bukin's bandwagon though, and the confrontations stopped being close as well.

 

[montrealsurfa]

While I noted Virtue & Moir as a possible choice of mine, I am surprised to see them running away with this poll. I know I said lack of depth in ice dance doesnt mean much given the nature of ice dance, but still the field in that 2011-2014 quad after the top 2 was really, really weak wasnt it? Teams like Pechalat & Bourzat, Bobrova & Soloviev, Shibutanis (2011-2014 version) who regularly won medals that quad wouldnt even be in contention for world medals any other era but then probably, and were literally another planet away from the top 2, a much bigger gap than the current teams from PapCiz and V&M despite that those 2 are every bit as strong or stronger than 2011-2014 V&M and D&W, and a team the caliber ofCapellini & Lanotte even won a World title.

 

[butyrskafanatic]

Virtue & Moir never faced anyone but Davis & White and young and pre prime French team. Considering that is in a 12 year senior career at the top they had it easy. Also being the judges pets their whole career where they are usually given each win even with big stumbles/falls and their biggest rivals making mistakes (eg- 2012 worlds with huge error winning over perfect Davis & White, 2017 worlds with huge error winning over perfect Papadakis & Cizeron).

 

[Twilight1]

Grishuk & Platov were the class of the field. In 94, they were the up and comers/ spoilers. In '95, R&K and M&L were great but had mediocre FD's. '96, K&O were just starting to establish themselves and '97 G&P had probably the best OD and FD combo of the 90's. By 1998, Anissina & Peizerat were just hitting their stride but were not in the same realm as G&P. K&O were good and their FD is probably one of their signature pieces but G&P were the established team. They were going out with gold and I don't think anyone had any doubt with that.

I picked V&M because D&W were technically amazing. P&C are flawless on ice. Like butter. V&M are going to have to bring perfection to South Korea to deserve to win in IMHO otherwise, P&C will deserve the win.

G&G were my next choice. M&D gave them a run for their money in 1994.

 

[butyrskafanatic]

I could be wrong but I had a feeling the judges were maybe willing to give Rahkammo & Kokko a swan song gold in a big upset over G&P whose free dance was underwhelming that year, if they did not have their technically easiest and weakest free dance ever that year.

 

[Twilight1]

Their Tap is probably my 2nd favourite ice dance FD of all time from G&P lol. (After Arabian Nights in '97)

 

[gk_891]

I could be wrong but I had a feeling the judges were maybe willing to give Rahkammo & Kokko a swan song gold in a big upset over G&P whose free dance was underwhelming that year, if they did not have their technically easiest and weakest free dance ever that year.

Not so sure about that because IIRC the Finns only won the silver medal by a 5-4 split over Moniotte & Lavanchy in the free dance. If I am remembering that incorrectly though, then never mind!

I also quite like that tap dance number from G&P but they never performed it at full strength. I wonder what it would've looked like if Platov hadn't been injured that season and had gotten to showcase it earlier (and thus made any necessary changes by the time Worlds came about).

ETA - sorry I didn't read your post accurately. You had said that if they didn't have such a technically easy and weak free dance, R&K may have been given a swan song gold. You could be right about that.

 

[butyrskafanatic]

Not so sure about that because IIRC the Finns only won the silver medal by a 5-4 split over Moniotte & Lavanchy in the free dance. If I am remembering that incorrectly though, then never mind!

I also quite like that tap dance number from G&P but they never performed it at full strength. I wonder what it would've looked like if Platov hadn't been injured that season and had gotten to showcase it earlier (and thus made any necessary changes by the time Worlds came about).

ETA - sorry I didn't read your post accurately. You had said that if they didn't have such a technically easy and weak free dance, R&K may have been given a swan song gold. You could be right about that.

Yeah they had no shot to win over G&P with that FD, I meant only if they had one of their best free dances with atleast, preferably more tech. difficulty than they normally came up with. As it was they did both their easiest and blandest program ever, so it was impossible to be placed over a clean skating G&P.

I base my hunch in that hypothetical on a few things. R&K were taking multiple judges off G&P in each dance leading up to the FD. Which without getting into a drawn out discussion to whether deserved or not was the norm for how they marked those two teams.

This was also a worlds they seemed to be giving a lot of retirement and career achievement presents to past perceived victims of unfair judging. As you know many feel Rahkammo & Kokko were somewhat unfairly marked for years. Kovarikova & Novotny who for years were thought to get the short end of the judging stick, and even recently most felt got shafted for home town favorites Woetzel & Steuer at Europeans in a result most thought was wrong, got probably a gift world title to go out with when they didnt skate their best or even as well at Europeans and with atleast 1 major error and some smaller errors beat a clean skating Shishkova & Naumov. Bonaly got a very questionable silver in her sort of last stand as a top contender, when she really should have been behind Kwan in both the short and long programs and thus 4th overall considering Bobek's deserved short program win (and even if you think Markova deserved to beat Bobek in the long then she would get the bronze over Bonaly now as Bonaly deserved only 5th in the short). In fact it appears the judges tried to gift her a gold after controversial (to some) losses in 93 and 94, when she lost by only 1 judge to Chen Lu which was kind of ridiculous when she didnt skate her best in either program, had many unclean jumps, and was artistically way behind.

A lukewarm British crowd to G&P who were still upset over the Lillehammer result while R&K were heavily the crowd favorites with people wanting them after their huge European win to pull off an even bigger upset and win in their swan song. It just seems that things were possibly lining up to this result, if they had something better than possibly their worst and technically easiest FD ever which gave the judges no option to give them the gold.

 

[gk_891]

I can see what you mean for sure.

And yes, I think R&K took 2 or 3 ordinals from G&P in the Rhumba CD. But after that, they took one ordinal from them in the Argentine Tango CD IIRC and one ordinal in the OD. And you're right, whether it was deserved or not, that was a surprise considering how ice dance was typically judged at that time.

 

[Twilight1]

Thankfully- Rahkamo & Kokko had their OD. Courtesy of which we got the Finnstep.

 

[gk_891]

For sure, R&K's OD was fantastic. But I'm still more partial to G&P's quickstep as I think it's an absolute masterpiece. I actually prefer it to their tango from 1997. I hope one day a short dance pattern will be made from either G&P's tango or quickstep.

 

[skatingguy]

Also being the judges pets their whole career where they are usually given each win even with big stumbles/falls and their biggest rivals making mistakes (eg- 2012 worlds with huge error winning over perfect Davis & White, 2017 worlds with huge error winning over perfect Papadakis & Cizeron).

What was the error in 2012? In 2010 they had an error on the twizzles in the free skate, finished 2nd in the free skate but still won, and of course last year they had that error in the free skate but still won overall because of the strength of their short program.

 

[Vera Costa]

of course last year they had that error in the free skate but still won overall because of the strength of their short program.

P/C also had errors in the short. People seem to forget that too.

 

[MAXSwagg]

P/C also had errors in the short. People seem to forget that too.

But V/M had a MASSIVE error in the free, yet almost won that segment too!

 

[Twilight1]

But V/M had a MASSIVE error in the free, yet almost won that segment too!

Because of the quality of their program overall.

Just like I could understand if P&C still win gold if they have a mistake in the free this year.

 

[butyrskafanatic]

What was the error in 2012? In 2010 they had an error on the twizzles in the free skate, finished 2nd in the free skate but still won, and of course last year they had that error in the free skate but still won overall because of the strength of their short program.

They had a visible stumble in their 2012 Funny Face program at worlds, I remember that clearly, although I dont remember if it was on an element or not.

 

[skatingguy]

They had a visible stumble in their 2012 Funny Face program at worlds, I remember that clearly, although I dont remember if it was on an element or not.

Doesn't seem that it was looking at the scores, and watching it back it was pretty minor so I don't think it would have much impact on the performance or the scores.
https://youtu.be/RwbgR_PAErE?t=85

 

[gk_891]

Doesn't seem that it was looking at the scores, and watching it back it was pretty minor so I don't think it would have much impact on the performance or the scores.
https://youtu.be/RwbgR_PAErE?t=85

Yeah, that error seems very minor to me. I'm not familiar with the point system but it also doesn't seem like it's on an element either.

 

[butyrskafanatic]

2012 definitely was not as bad as I had thought it was so thanks for the refresher there.

Still how did Virtue & Moir have the most competition when they only faced 1 even semi legitimate competitor almost their whole career. Davis & White and nobody else from 2010-2014, atleast from 2011-2014, and Papadakis & Cizeron today. The other teams maybe werent competitive because of how good V&M were but from 2011-2014 atleast the rest of the field was really weak too.

Even Gritschuk & Platov who I would never consider as having the hardest competition arguably had it harder since they faced Krylova & Ovsiannikov, young Anissina & Peizerat, Moniotte & Lavanchy, Rakhommo & Kokko, and Bourne & Kraatz who are all better teams than say Pechalat & Bourzat, Bobrova & Soloviev, or Weaver & Poje, and anyone V&M faced outside of Davis & White from 2011-2014. That is even excluding Usova & Zhulin who they faced up until 94 and the great Torvill & Dean who they also beat for their first gold medal. We see what happened the year V&M and D&W skipped worlds, a team like Capellini & Lanotte won, almost certainly the weakest team to ever win a World title in ice dance, even over the politically propped up other Italian winners Fusar Poli & Margalio who still won in a field that C&L never could have even with politics.

 

[joubertelegant]

Was the Soviet Fed against K&P? I remember they won Soviet Nationals in 1985 as well as Moscow News. Both times they defeated B&B. And in 1986, they won the OSP at both Europeans and Worlds (as well as 1987 Worlds). And they lost the 1986 Worlds FD by a 5-4 decision which seemed to have cemented B&B's position at the top. By the time K&P reached the top though, D&D were indeed gaining a lot of favour both audience-wise and politics-wise.

I think if K&P had won that 86 World title which came down to just 1 judge they also win the 87 worlds, 88 Olympics, and 88 worlds. Just because that is how ice dance back then worked. That event set the tone the entire quad.

In fact it did in every event. Annenko & Stretenski were positioned for a bronze in the dance and fell and lost it, and they stayed 4th behind Wilson & McCall the whole quad and when B&B finally retired were immediately bumped below Usova & Zhulin as Russian #3 again. Fadeev was in dominant position to defend his world title, bombed and came 3rd behind the two Brians, and continued to decline to a 4th place in Calgary. Thomas beat Witt for the world title and was her big rival the rest of the quad, while Ivanova was in position for a medal or possible gold and sank and was never a factor again.

Valova & Vasiliev also lost their pairs title to Gordeeva & Grinkov due to mistakes, and would be kept behind them the rest of the quad, even times they should have won over them like the 87 worlds.

 

[watchthis!!]

This poll is proof that Virtue and Moir are the best figure skaters in the history of the galaxy.

 

[gk_891]

I think if K&P had won that 86 World title which came down to just 1 judge they also win the 87 worlds, 88 Olympics, and 88 worlds. Just because that is how ice dance back then worked. That event set the tone the entire quad.

In fact it did in every event. Annenko & Stretenski were positioned for a bronze in the dance and fell and lost it, and they stayed 4th behind Wilson & McCall the whole quad and when B&B finally retired were immediately bumped below Usova & Zhulin as Russian #3 again. Fadeev was in dominant position to defend his world title, bombed and came 3rd behind the two Brians, and continued to decline to a 4th place in Calgary. Thomas beat Witt for the world title and was her big rival the rest of the quad, while Ivanova was in position for a medal or possible gold and sank and was never a factor again.

Valova & Vasiliev also lost their pairs title to Gordeeva & Grinkov due to mistakes, and would be kept behind them the rest of the quad, even times they should have won over them like the 87 worlds.

Did Annenko & Sretenski fall in their free dance at the 1986 Worlds? I didn't know that.