Which competition (IJS) should we watch (and judge!) next?

[casken]

I'll be France again for consistency, unless someone actually French wants it. Then I'll take whatever.

 

[RoseRed]

I can judge too

 

[Jeschke]

Great response so far.

One judge spot and one tech assistant spot still to grab!
Join the duo infernale of @misskarne and @alchemy void to make this thing even more

 

[skatingguy]

Great response so far.

One judge spot and one tech assistant spot still to grab!
Join the duo infernale of @misskarne and @alchemy void to make this thing even more

Oh, that sounds like fun. I'd be interested in the tech assistant spot. Someone has to keep @misskarne from downgrading everything. j/k

 

[Jeschke]

Oh, that sounds like fun. I'd be interested in the tech assistant spot. Someone has to keep @misskarne from downgrading everything. j/k

Awesome!
I would not have guessed that we get a full tech panel!
And I somehow wish we could get footage of the debates

 

[Plusdinfo]

I'll try my hand. Not thrilled with the event selection, as I have read enough rehashing of Evan vs. Evgeni, but they weren't the only skaters.

Whoever helps organize, please include the judging guidelines for that particular year. Can't remember if IJS has changed PCS or TES since then.

 

[Jeschke]

Thanks @Plusdinfo , I gave you UAE again as country, hope that is fine.

So 1st panel is complete.
If someone else wants to take part, please just let me know, we make this work!

It‘s late here, so updates on how we proceed tomorrow!

 

[Immortelle]

I’d have preferred pairs...not a massive fan of men’s skating overall BUT I’m interested to find out how our judges view the battle for the bronze!

 

[Marco]

I would happily judge both the SP and FS of 2010 Olympic men, representing HKG (and secretly I am Vanessa Riley's student)!

I believe having a full technical panel means the others can overrule a call by the caller?!

Is it easier if the calls are made first, and then the judges can give out GOEs and PCS based on those calls in the excel?!

 

[Jeschke]

Tech Controller: @alchemy void FSU
Tech Specialist: @misskarne FSU
Tech Assistant: @skatingguy FSU

Judge 1: @Jeschke
Judge 2: @casken
Judge 3: @Marco
Judge 4: @kwanatic
Judge 5: @morqet
Judge 6: @rosetintmyworld
Judge 7: @ChelleC
Judge 8: @RoseRed
Judge 9: @Plusdinfo

Thanks for your participation. I hope this will be fun.
As @Marco suggested, it makes more sense to have the calls first, as some GOE have to be adressed to the calls.

So tech panel goes first. We start with SP:

Men's Figure Skating - Short Program Full Event - Vancouver 2010 Winter Olympics

Full coverage of the short program in the men's figure skating event at the Vancouver 2010 Winter Olympic Games. For more Vancouver 2010 videos go to http://...

www.youtube.com

Here's the communication for the season:

http://iceskatingresources.org/ISUComm1494.pdf

Can all of you send me your Email (the one you never use ) via DM to me, so I will hand out spreadsheets, as soon as calls been made.

 

[barbarafan]

if it is on can someone publesse add the est time (along with link) tks..I usually have run arounds on saturday but think I can get it done in am so can hunker down and enjoy. I keep missing out and watch the skating later. 2010 was when I was working around the clock and I think the only part of 2010 I watched on reruns was trssa and scott and johanne rochette.

 

[Jeschke]

if it is on can someone publesse add the est time (along with link) tks..I usually have run arounds on saturday but think I can get it done in am so can hunker down and enjoy. I keep missing out and watch the skating later. 2010 was when I was working around the clock and I think the only part of 2010 I watched on reruns was trssa and scott and johanne rochette.

No worries! I will when the watchparty date is set.

Tech Panel is already at work; when calls are ready, judges will do their work!
After we have all the scores, the watchparty will take place!

Stay tuned!

 

[Jeschke]

Little update:
Short program scores are coming back by judges, so we may have the FSU SP result pretty soon


Is there any interest of a (maybe slimmed down) WatchParty for SP too?
Just let us know!

 

[Plusdinfo]

Spoiler alert
*And yes, I know there will be a watch party, but my judging is fresh NOW ;-).
-I just judged the SP and have the following to share:
It's a very "busy" experience to enter all the GOEs and thoughtfully do PCS. Why not have 5 judges doing tech stuff and 5 doing PCS or something like that?
I agree with Janet Lynn and others who think that skating is the sum of its parts, not its parts. In judging this way compared to doing the 1998 Worlds ladies' SP FSU judging of recent times using 6.0, I felt like this may have led to less accurate placements from me. I'm not sure I have a great understanding of what makes step sequences get variances in GOE outside of extremely rare cases (i.e. an outright fall plus two stumbles).

Anyway, some reactions:
Anton Kovalevski was a very nice surprise in the performance/interpretation/choreography departments.
Paolo Bacchini: same.
Lindemann's program seemed really empty of choreography with little connection to the music.
Borodulin was like a baby Plushenko/precursor to Artur Gachinski.
Van Der Perren, Amodio, and Contesti were skaters I could say I was a fan of, but I was not impressed with their work here, with Amodio seeming to be the quickest/least scratchy of the three.
Joubert had his jumping issues, but I liked the rest of what I saw.
Abbott blended things together in a good way but was tight.
Denis Ten was a joy to watch, and his whole package/elements were really solid.
Chan was better with interpretation/performance than most of his later programs.
Weir didn't stick out at all. He was quite smooth but neither artistically brilliant nor powerful.
Plushenko DID NOT match the music for a fair bit of the program. He might as well have had any other semi- to very intense music playing; the details didn't change from anything else he'd done.
I still believe Takahashi interprets the music better than anyone.
Oda's skating skills were the best for me because Chan had a stumble.

 

[Plusdinfo]

Little update:
Short program scores are coming back by judges, so we may have the FSU SP result pretty soon


Is there any interest of a (maybe slimmed down) WatchParty for SP too?
Just let us know!

I don't know if anyone is interested, but what about a "judges at a bar in a world with no pandemic" chat instead of watching all four hours (again, for those who have judged)? Even people who didn't judge can join. The purpose could be to share reactions, comments, and questions + justify marks ;-). It's not to say no one can watch the programs while chatting, but it might be more interactive and less repetitive for those who have seen the programs recently.

 

[gkelly]

It's a very "busy" experience to enter all the GOEs and thoughtfully do PCS. Why not have 5 judges doing tech stuff and 5 doing PCS or something like that?

In my experience, once you've gotten the hang of assigning GOEs to thousands of programs a year, it's not a very busy task at all. When the ISU tried separating GOE and PCS panels at Nebelhorn after a few years of IJS, the GOE judges were really really bored with nothing to do or think about between elements.

Of course it will be overwhelming the first time you try, but if a fan chooses to practice judge every competition available to watch in real time, it gets easier and easier each time.

I'm not sure I have a great understanding of what makes step sequences get variances in GOE outside of extremely rare cases (i.e. an outright fall plus two stumbles).

Judges don't have to worry about the levels under IJS, but of course the difficulty and variety of the skating content are important to what makes one sequence better technically than another.

From the current positive GOE bullet points for step sequences

1) deep edges, clean steps and turns
2) element matches the music
3) effortless throughout with good energy, flow and execution
4) creativity and/or originality
5) excellent commitment and control of the whole body
6) good acceleration and deceleration

1) and 3) are mostly about technical quality; the rest of the bullets are more about the artistic or performance/execution aspects.

In real life each skater's execution of each of those criteria will fall somewhere on a continuum between not-at-all and excellent throughout. The bullet point system asks judges to come up with a yes-or-no decision for each of them, so a skater who just meets that judge's threshold for that criterion will earn the same point as a skater who significantly excels.

It is more likely that a skater who greatly excels in at least some of those criteria will also at least meet the minimum threshold on the others and therefore earn more bullets and higher final GOE from most judges. Under today's rules they have to meet all the bold criteria plus at least one other before judges can consider awarding +4 or +5.

(It is certainly possible for that not to be the case. E.g., for a skater who is exceptionally musical and creative to have such weak skating skills that they can't achieve any of the other bullets, or for a skater with excellent edges and effortless flow to skate generic steps ignoring the music completely. If so, they might each end up with, say, +2 GOE for completely different reasons.)

Also, some of these positive bullets have negative counterparts on the Reductions for Errors GOE page:
Does not correspond to the music
Poor quality of steps and turns
Poor quality of positions
Lack of flow and energy

So some judges might set their thresholds for awarding positive bullet points 1, 2, 3, and 5 quite high. That way they can distinguish between skaters who strongly meet each criterion (+1 for that bullet), those who minimally meet that criterion (no reward and no penalty), and those who really don't meet it at all (-1 to -3 for poor steps and turns, poor body positions, or lack of flow and energy; -2 to -4 for not corresponding to the music.

Of course in elite events there will be a lot more positives and not so many really poor examples. Even the weakest examples at an Olympics might be just OK (no plus or minus) rather than "poor."

I think I'll try watching these programs with specific focus on the step sequences (usually my favorite element in any case!). That way I'll have that much more practice for the next time I try to score whole programs.

2010 rules were a bit vaguer, especially on the negative side. Aside from falls, stumbles, and not meeting the rules, there was just one reduction of -1 to -3 for "Poor quality of steps, turns, positions."

The positive bullets were pretty similar to now but there were 8 possible bullets instead of 6 so, e.g., "good energy and execution" and "effortless throughout" were separate bullets back then. The other difference was that the GOE range was only -3 to +3 back then and the guidelines recommended two bullets for each +1 in GOE.

 

[Marco]

I find I am much more inclined to give the high GOEs and high PCS than the judges were. I compared my scores to those of the actual judges afterwards and was surprised by how low their scores were. There were barely any 9's or +2 let alone +3's aside from the very top (e.g. Lambiel's spins). Obviously a top score is not to be handed out like candy but for me some spins are simply too perfect not to give +3s even if not by the top guys. IIRC judges were quite the opposite and would quickly jump to the negatives upon seeing a slight slip, but would very much hesitate to upgrade to a +1 or +2 unless they see an abundance of merit in those elements. Well I see the glass as half full but I feel less guilty or self absorbed because I wouldn't be placing the skaters when I gave the GOEs or even the PCS.

And I weigh the pros and cons in a slightly different way. I take reference from the bullets, but there are certain features that I tend to reward more / punish more.

• jump form and jump landings are important for me, transitions in and out are less so. Instability is a big no-no.
• spin centering and continuous speed are important for me, positions less so. Slowing down is a big no-no no matter how hard to position is.
• footwork relation to music and pacing are important for me, as is the pattern / coverage, and edge quality, but agility less so.

My routine was, I would score the element on GOE as they happened, and then score the 5 PCS components afterwards. My practice, I would give the SS score first based on speed and skating basics etc, and then vary upwards or downwards for the other components. I tried to judge the 5 components separately but there was always an inevitable understanding to stay close within the corridor, especially for unmemorable skating where the skater wasn't particularly good at anything.

@Jeschke The scores I sent you were actually the second version because I had lost my first version to the browser. The 2 versions should be quite similar because I redid them right away, but I inevitably adjusted some of my earlier scores knowing what would come after and the huge gap in between. Would a referee usually give guidance on PCS on the first skater to set the tone?

 

[SmallFairy]

I would love a watch party for the SP!

 

[Jeschke]

Would a referee usually give guidance on PCS on the first skater to set the tone?

I am stumped here
It might be for the better my PCS on first skater is not used for that

Overall, tbh, I am no fan of the 'overmarked' judging these days. To me, PCS seemed way more in order back then, than today.

 

[Jeschke]

I would love a watch party for the SP!

I think we can go for a slimmed down version, so judges can discuss along (and switch off video when they don't wanna watch again) and the rest can bitch on tech panel and judges

 

[gkelly]

Would a referee usually give guidance on PCS on the first skater to set the tone?

They used to do that under 6.0 -- there would be a pause for the referee to take the scores from all the judges, establish the median score, and let the judges all know the median so they could adjust their scores for the first skater up or down.

I've never heard of them doing that in IJS. I think the idea is that each judge will establish a scoring range to match each general skill level in their minds, and work from there. So different judges on the same panel might be in significantly different ranges. But they're not supposed to be comparing skaters to each other.

What does seem to have happened is that at the beginning of IJS judges were pretty cautious about awarding top PCS in the 9s or +3 GOEs. Many may still have been thinking more in terms of 6.0 SP-style deductions.

The introduction of the positive GOE bullet points before Vancouver may have helped a little there.

The resetting of PCS ranges seems to have happened in the run up to Sochi, so there were a lot more 9s given out in 2014 than even in 2013 or 2012, as I remember. I don't know where the impetus came from to encourage judges to be more willing to use the top of the range, but I would guess that referees were telling judges in the pre-event meetings not to be afraid to give 9s, or +3s, when the skating warranted it.

 

[rfisher]

the rest can bitch on tech panel and judges

Why else would we watch but to do that?

 

[casken]

I've tried to sit down to do this a few times, but then I look at the rules sheet and look at the Youtube vid and see it's 4 hours long and suddenly I get the urge to do anything else.

I'll try to get them in today.

 

[Plusdinfo]

I've tried to sit down to do this a few times, but then I look at the rules sheet and look at the Youtube vid and see it's 4 hours long and suddenly I get the urge to do anything else.

I'll try to get them in today.

Don't worry, the video is 4 hours, but when you press pause at the bow and fast forward to the starting position as I did, it winds up being roughly 2 hours.

 

[Jeschke]

but when you press pause at the bow and fast forward to the starting position

(((Zambonidriver)))

 

[ChelleC]

The last few days of work have been absolute hell. I'm off on Wednesday and I'm going to do my judging tomorrow night and Wednesday.

 

[casken]

Finished. I wound up disagreeing with the results more than I remembered.

Not so much the placements, just everyone in 4-9 place should have been closer to the top 3.

 

[Marco]

What does seem to have happened is that at the beginning of IJS judges were pretty cautious about awarding top PCS in the 9s or +3 GOEs. Many may still have been thinking more in terms of 6.0 SP-style deductions.

The introduction of the positive GOE bullet points before Vancouver may have helped a little there.

The resetting of PCS ranges seems to have happened in the run up to Sochi, so there were a lot more 9s given out in 2014 than even in 2013 or 2012, as I remember. I don't know where the impetus came from to encourage judges to be more willing to use the top of the range, but I would guess that referees were telling judges in the pre-event meetings not to be afraid to give 9s, or +3s, when the skating warranted it.

It's interesting because Vancouver was the second Olympics, and 5th year after Moscow Worlds, after the implementation of IJS on the championship stage. One would think the judges would be more at ease about the higher scores already. It's just that if the top score is like 8, then Plushenko's 6 for TR doesn't really look that bad.

 

[Jeschke]

Only 3 judges are missing, so we might have a SP results and watchparty the weekend of next week.

Problem:
We can't watch the youtube stream (as it's 4hrs and way too long); I tried upload a test with scores and it's blocked due rights.
It works with streamable, but streamable is no option in watch2gether.
So we all had to press the start button same time (we did before).
Anyone knows which of the watch2gether options (vimeo & co) won't be blocked? So it's easier for others to join later.

 

[alchemy void]

Only 3 judges are missing, so we might have a SP results and watchparty the weekend of next week.

Problem:
We can't watch the youtube stream (as it's 4hrs and way too long); I tried upload a test with scores and it's blocked due rights.
It works with streamable, but streamable is no option in watch2gether.
So we all had to press the start button same time (we did before).
Anyone knows which of the watch2gether options (vimeo & co) won't be blocked? So it's easier for others to join later.

I can rip the video from youtube, temporarily upload to my vimeo account, and then use that link for watch2gether.
That's what I had to do when we did the 2010 Olympics OD watch party. I couldn't come up with a better solution.