What rule changes would you like to see for the next quad?

[Vash01]

It was clear that some rule changes are necessary in order to improve FS competitions before the next Olympics. We will never get rid of some subjectivity and some controversy, due to the nature of this sport. Still it is possible to reduce it.

Here is my list:

1. Require skaters to do a minimum number of jumps (solo or in combinations) in the first half. For example, at least one in the SP and two in the LP.

2. Give marks for a balanced choreography (balanced needs to be defined clearly). This is somewhat redundant.

3. Limit the number of Tano and Rippon jumps (though i love the Rippon jumps- they are very pretty). For exampke, no more than total three (Tano plus Rippon in an LP.

AND

3.b. Grade the quality of a Tano jump, with Boitano as the gold standard.

4. If the singles get a bonus in the second half, give pairs a bonus for throws and jumps done in the second half

5. Get rid of the bonus in the SP. It is unnecessary in a 2:40 min program.

6. In ice dance enforce costume deduction for poorly designed costumes (to be defined)

7. Limit the number of quads to 4 in the LP, so skaters can show other asoects of FS in their programs.

OR

7b. Don't limit the number of quads but reduce the number of points for a quad.

8. Dont try to tie PCS to TES. Grade each component of PCS separately.

9. In pairs give credit to posture, lives, and unison (to be defined)

That's all i can think of right now.

 

[shady82]

Rather than limit the number of jumps in the first half, I suggest just limiting the number of jumps and tanos/rippons that get extra points. For instance in ladies, no more than 5 jumping passes in the second half get a bonus. Also, bonus features and difficult transitions into jumps are not 'GOE' so maybe they should get a bonus added on the jump instead of boosting GOE. Idk how this will work..it's a bit complicated. If this is the case, also limit the number of bonus features that get extra points.

With that said, there are many skaters who do a lot of this code-whoring but are not getting massively overscored because the judges do penalize them for their deficiencies. Daria Panenkova comes to mind here.

 

[ballettmaus]

1. Require skaters to do a minimum number of jumps (solo or in combinations) in the first half. For example, at least one in the SP and two in the LP.

8. Dont try to tie PCS to TES. Grade each component of PCS separately.

The latter is an issue that has bothered me for years. They need to start judging everything independently. To make it easier, they may want to consider having two panels of judges, one for TES, one for PCS.
Also, I believe if they start to judge it separately and actually award PCS for choreography according to what they see and not how the skater skates, then #1 might go away by itself. A skater will do everything they can to get the best PCS they can. So, there probably doesn't need to be a limit to jumps that can be done at any given time in the program, just a deducation in the PCS. I'm sure skaters will then distribute jumps throughout the program immediately.

 

[snippy]

Bring back spiral sequences

 

[judgejudy27]

1. Limit the number of quads in the mens programs to 4. Guys like Chen and Boyang can still can an edge as they can do a quad lutz and quad flip (Nathan) which others cant.

2. Harsher penalties and more points lost for falls, especialy on quads. I do not think this will discourage people from trying quads as it is already clear to anyone with a brain they will need max number of quads and the hardest quads to even compete with Nathan, Shomo, and even Boyang (and if he continues of course Hanyu) anyway. In the past I might have been divided on this due to this, but not anymore, as I am 100% this would not prevent guys from trying quads, atleast guys who should be trying them (it might stop those throwing them in as a Hail Mary but those guys shouldnt be trying or doing them in competition yet anyway).

3. Much tougher PCS and GOE judging. People like Virtue & Moir, Papadakis & Cizeron, Hanyu, Medvedeva, Zagitova, Savchenko & Szolkowy, Sui & Han are now scoring close to the max in both, making seperating skaters by appropriate margins harder, and creating problems all the way down the field in scoring properly.

4. Judges being instructed to score each PCS seperately, otherwise just make it one big presentation or artistic mark, since as they are scoring since IJS came out having seperate categories is all but useless. They dont differntiate which areas some skaters are more skilled in than others at all. I also heard they get warnings or scoldings if the different PC categories have significantly different rankings per skater, this is absurd, and further defeats the purpose of having seperate PC categories in the first place.

5. Totally change the rules on footwork sequences. I am sick of 30 second footwork sequences and you dont need this to produce a quality footwork sequence that shows skill.

 

[misskarne]

1. Change of the fall deduction to a fixed percentage of base value (say, 30%), in addition to -3 GOE (mandatory -3, none of this "take -3 from what you would have given it" bullshit) and the -1 deduction.

2. Stricter enforcement of < and << jumps. Greater penalties for < and << including mandatory -2 GOE, reductions in base value. Tech panels to be trained to be Shin Amano-levels of strict.

3. If you fall on a jump in the second half, you don't get the 10% bonus.

4. 10% bonus to apply to all elements in second half, not just jumps.

5. Mandatory reductions in PCS for major mistakes, especially falls. You are not demonstrating 9.5 worthy skating skills on your butt. Nobody, and I mean nobody should be getting above 90 with a fall.

 

[screech]

Actually mark PCS appropriately. Just because a skater skates really well, don't give them in the 9s for program composition if they do all jumps in the second half of the program, or if they spend 10-15 seconds setting up for an element (mainly quads). Don't give a skater a great mark on skating skills just because they landed all their jumps, UNLESS their SS actually are great. mark all PCS separately! Have different judges for each component, if need be.

I agree with limiting Tano/Rippon jumps. They limited the number of Biellmans a few years ago, they should do the same to this.

Definitely get rid of the bonus in the SP. I also agree with limiting the amount of bonuses you can get in the LP.

Unless a jump is spectacular, don't give +GOE. So many jumps at the Games were showing up as green as skaters were competing, yet in real time, watching on TV, I definitely would have had a lot AT LEAST under review, and a lot of them with AT LEAST -1 for GOE. There were times skaters clearly two-footed landings but got +GOE. And if a skater spends 10 seconds in the set-up, this should not earn +3s.

CONSISTENCY with marking edge calls and downgrades. And start marking extreme pre-rotation as well. I enjoy Shoma Uno, but if he'd been marked appropriately in the LP, he would have had the bronze.

 

[Bellanca]

Cutting to the chase, with all due respect, why is it that every time a younger skater wins the Olympic title do we find it necessary to overhaul the rules once again? Could it be that a portion of fans/reporters, etc. did not support or want a particular skater to win (which occurs at pretty much every Olympic Games) so that the preordained coronation could have materialized as expected? Or, is it merely to assist the more mature lady to the top of the podium? Imho, it’s that, and a whole lot more, which does not constitute a fair sport.

Tweaking the rules are occasionally necessary and helpful, but not when there is a distinct, unfair agenda behind such a change, like holding against the athlete in question their age, or the fact they might back-load their programs w/ point-getting jumps, thus taking advantage of the rules currently in place.

Re: the age requirement, if people are so uptight about the younger ladies winning Olympic titles, World titles, etc. petition the ISU to raise the age limit, but until then, a 15, 16, 17 or 18-year-old skater is free to do so - in all the disciplines.

 

[screech]

Cutting to the chase, with all due respect, why is it that every time a younger skater wins the Olympic title do we find it necessary to overhaul the rules once again? Could it be that a portion of fans/reporters, etc. did not support or want a particular skater to win (which occurs at pretty much every Olympic Games) so that the preordained coronation could have materialized as expected? Or, is it merely to assist the more mature lady to the top of the podium? Imho, it’s that, and a whole lot more, which does not constitute a fair sport.

Tweaking the rules are occasionally necessary and helpful, but not when there is a distinct, unfair agenda behind such a change, like holding against the athlete in question their age, or the fact they might back-load their programs w/ point-getting jumps, thus taking advantage of the rules currently in place.

Re: the age requirement, if people are so uptight about the younger ladies winning Olympic titles, World titles, etc. petition the ISU to raise the age limit, but until then, a 15, 16, 17 or 18-year-old skater is free to do so - in all the disciplines.

Speaking just for myself, I don't want to see adjustments because of who won. I want to see adjustments because the skating game is ever-evolving, and the system needs to match what is being put on the ice.

- Skaters used to do Biellmans in every spin. It became kind of boring and a bit unsightly. So IJS was adjusted to limit this.
- When footwork sequences started turning into 30 second to 1 minute long pieces of the program, it was hard to keep two full levelled sequences in the program, so they turned one into just a choreographic sequence, marked only on GOE, which allowed skaters to better use the music while still performing steps/moves in the field
- It had been long known that it was 'easier' to get jumps done and out of the way, which is why skaters front-loaded programs, so IJS rewarded those who spread things out a bit
- The jumps being done started changing, so point values changed

The system is ever-evolving based on how it's being used. If not this season, I think that in the next few years we will see a limit on Tano/Rippon, because people are starting to overdo it, and it's not aesthetically pleasing all the time. Skaters are focusing on backloading to maximize points, so I think before the next Games, there will be a limit on that too. Skaters are trying to do as many quads as possible, and while I'm all for upping the game technically, for many of those skaters it takes a huge chunk of the program to prepare and set-up for the quads, which should affect the TES and components.

While I'm not a fan of Alina's style yet, I have no issues with her win based on the system as it is now. The system right now doesn't really encourage her to work on her style and maturity - I think she has the potential to be absolutely beautiful and mesmerizing on the ice, BETWEEN the jumps, and I hope the system encourages skaters like her, and others coming up from juniors, to be performing a whole program.

 

[Meoima]

Strict tech panel on pre-rotation and under-rotation.

 

[briancoogaert]

Judges will have to apply the rules !

To be more serious, I would love a SP change. I don't like this to be the same as LP but shorter.
I loved when it was do it or die.

ETA : I love Vash's list !

 

[misskarne]

Cutting to the chase, with all due respect, why is it that every time a younger skater wins the Olympic title do we find it necessary to overhaul the rules once again? Could it be that a portion of fans/reporters, etc. did not support or want a particular skater to win (which occurs at pretty much every Olympic Games) so that the preordained coronation could have materialized as expected?

All of my points on my list are points I've made before. None of these are new arguments of mine. Though, granted, I usually forget where I've made each one, so perhaps you haven't seen them before.

 

[umronnie]

I am against limiting elements in principal. This is a sport, after all. So no limit on the number of quads (other than the zayak rule) and no limit on the number of jumps in the second half (as annoying the first 2 minutes of Zygotova's program may be). However, not limiting is not the same as rewarding.

I am for limiting the number of jumps eligible for bonus. I am for removing the bonus from unsuccessful jumps (jumps with negative GoE) - not just falls. I am for limiting the number of times an arm over the head merits a + GoE and I believe that only arms fully extended should "qualify", not Medvedeva's noodle arm or Sotskova's broken arm version - again, because a bonus in only warranted if "you do it right".

I am not for reducing the value of quads, because that sends the wrong message, but I am for increasing the penalties for bad quads. There is no excuse for giving Kolyada 9 points for falling on a quad Lutz he has landed exactly once in competiton. A fall on a quad should be worth NO MORE than the base value for a triple. The benefit of going for a quad is still there, in the form of the base mark, but know that if you are planning a strategic fall it won't help you at all.

PCS should be better applied, but i guess that is a pipe dream. The big problem wih PCS is confirmation boas. Once a higher PCS is given to a skater, it won't be taken back. Giving sae marks in different competitions validates the marks of previous judging panels. This is how Zygotova's marks climbed from low 8s in the beginning of the season to mid 9s last week, without any marked improvement in actual skating.

One thing I would like changed is how championship spots are given, based upon last year's results. That is why we had Austman at Olys while Higuchi watched on TV. I would like the ISU to invite the top skaters in the world, not whoever the federations assign:

I say let 3 warmup-groups worth of the top skaters in the world standing (perhaps the way standing is calculated should be tweaked a bit), but no more than 3 from each country (maybe a wild card for world champion, as they do in athletics) - e.g. the top 18 ladies on the world standing charts, but no more than 3 Russians, Japanese, American etc., plus any ONE skater per federation not represented in the above, who has met the minimum.

 

[nuge]

Bring back the spin in the SD

 

[Anyasnake]

Bring back the spin in the SD

Noooo Waste of time !

Talking about SDs, for the waltz there was no No-toush step sequences, and for Blues/Swing/Hiphop and Latin there was. I think it's a good idea to adapt that rule depending on the theme. For the Blues it was very neceassary because swing and HipHop aren't really danced in holds... However I'd get rid of it for the tango next year. It takes 2 to tango, and not 2 separate people. Aren't they going to scrap it next year anyway because the compulsory is too long ?

 

[clairecloutier]

Cutting to the chase, with all due respect, why is it that every time a younger skater wins the Olympic title do we find it necessary to overhaul the rules once again? Could it be that a portion of fans/reporters, etc. did not support or want a particular skater to win (which occurs at pretty much every Olympic Games) so that the preordained coronation could have materialized as expected?

Most of the ideas in this thread have been posted & discussed in previous threads about judging and IJS. It’s not a reaction against Zagitova; these ideas were already out there for the most part.

 

[starrynight]

One thing I would like changed is how championship spots are given, based upon last year's results.

Yes, imagine if a wave of gastro hit the Russian ladies right before the competition at World Championships one year and there were withdrawals. Would that mean that because of this there would only be 1 spot for the Russian ladies at the next Worlds/Olympics?

But it's hard to do it on world standings too, because they can be very influenced by which skaters/countries have GP assignments and/or lots of senior Bs.

My suggested rule change:

Increase the number of pairs teams that go through to the free skate at Worlds/Olympics

Just for fun - bring back pairs fours.

 

[Seerek]

I would probably incorporate for singles

- choreographic spin
- just as in juniors, prescribed jump to incorporate, but I'd relax it a little and have it usable as either the solo jump or in the combination
- higher GOE range for footwork and spins

 

[Bellanca]

My initial post was not in response to any other post or poster, specifically.

Actually, if it were purposely going in a specific direction, it would have been in response to Lucinda Ruh. Lucinda, who was mentioned by another poster over in the Kaetlyn Osmond fan/cheer thread, had evidently remarked that there should not be a place for a young girl in a mature woman's sport, etc. etc. etc... despite the current (age limit) rule to the contrary. And, since we are discussing what (possible) change of rule(s) should be addressed or implemented…

Also, I did not feel addressing this topic in Kaetlyn Osmond’s fan/cheer thread, which is where this poster chose to drop that information re Lucinda, was appropriate.

Anyhow, back to Lucinda, and with all due respect, her remarks/comments are now the predictable and typical post-Olympic reaction that many resort to whenever a teenager wins the Olympic gold medal, etc.

Raising the age limit has been tossed around in the past by fans who do not want to see a teenager win the big titles until they remember that some of their favorites had done just that when they too were teenagers.

 

[Bellanca]

6. In ice dance enforce costume deduction for poorly designed costumes (to be defined)

Good luck w/ that one!

 

[chantilly]

I agree with a lot of the posts above.
I think what’s clear is that we need changes.
I’m for limiting quads, as I think it’s causinf way too many injuries and unbalanced programs/competitions full of falls.
Whether that’s punishing quads with falls more in marks.
Automatic PCS dings, whatever.

Tanos should really be in the technical mark. Everyone since the original skater did it says it’s harder. And I agree Boitano is the gold standard.

I ageee on either limiting the amount of jumps in the back half or limiting the amount of bonus. I think Zagitova did it pretty well but it still was a pretty unbalanced program.

I agree that pairs deserve a bonus points system as well. I’d say throws and side by sides.

Also get rid of the combination spin. It almost always sucks. Dancers have better combination spins then pairs now.

Maybe a footwork sequence in pairs in the short instead.

I also think that dance deserve bonus marks too. If they perform their footwork and twizzles in the second half, bonus.

Also redefine the levels assigned to lifts. It seems too easy now to get a level 4.

Also agree different panels for GOES and PCS. Split the panels in two.

So it’s five and five or make it 6 and 6 by adding 2.

Redefine the awarding of GOES. But I do think the +5/-5 will help.

Definitely agree on stricter technical panels on UR’s, edge calls, and pre- rotations. Or at least consistency with it.

Also banning of overhead cameras!

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Choreography, Choreography, Choreography,

If you aint got none you done get none (medals).

Maybe less jumps (ceiling of 5 passes) and 2 or 3 choreography sequences..

And for God Sake Rule #2 in Ladies, Required element: The Spiral Sequence. Um-Kay?

 

[missing]

Include the ability to land jumps in the Skating Skills score. To me landing jumps is a skating skill. And if you include clean landings in that score, fewer skaters with fab edges and frequent falls would score astronomically.

The following is a pet peeve of mine and won't most likely change anything significantly. But if a pairs team doesn't do the same level jump, one doubles, the other triples, and thus it's marked as a double for both of them, then I think if both skaters fall on the same jump, it should only be a one point deduction.

 

[Anyasnake]

Include the ability to land jumps in the Skating Skills score.

I actually think it already is. Hence the very high PCS for Zagitova, Medvedeva, etc. The PCS rise isn't really unjustified if you take that into account.

 

[Bellanca]

Choreography, Choreography, Choreography,

...along w/ viable jump content.

If you aint got none you done get none (medals).

...especially when presenting a program (from start to finish) that is loaded-up with time-wasting, ridiculous, embarrassing and shameless (OTT) posing accompanied by two-footed skating, zero crossovers, sub-par SS, wonky spins, etc.… Yeah, no medals.

ETA: To clarify, I'm not talking about the three ladies who comprised the PyeongChang Olympic podium. They did their job - and rightfully earned their medals.

 

[Willin]

I do want there to be an age limit of 18. Not to lock the Russian skaters out, but because watching the Olympics it was pretty obvious who was older and who was younger (the US ladies being the exception for whatever reason). Skaters like Osmond, Daleman, Kostner, Miyahara, and even the 18-year-old Dabin Choi were just so beautiful and mature compared to some of the young Juniorish skaters. Giving skaters that extra three years to develop their artistry and skating skills would really help at the Senior level.

Also, more specifically aimed at the Russian skaters - lower transitions/choreography mark for stuffing as many things into transitions as possible for no reason other than points. On his TSL interview, Tom Dickson pointed out that their moves in transitions are usually less than 1.5 seconds - probably because of the perception that the more stuff you stuff in there, the more points (and that's what's happening). But really, I would much rather see a nice 6-second bauer across the ice with a great back arch than Alina's short little "bauer" where she places her legs in the right spot and then immediately leaves the position.

6. In ice dance enforce costume deduction for poorly designed costumes (to be defined)

I think in ice dance there's been a move to "couture" looking costumes, meaning less to no illusion mesh. Yet they do the lifts that are most likely to cause a costume malfunction. I like a lot of the costumes (others not so much), but I do think they need to enforce the modesty principle or at least illusion mesh to minimize future costume malfunctions. I believe we saw two at this competition alone - both which could've been stoppedby illusion mesh.

5. Totally change the rules on footwork sequences. I am sick of 30 second footwork sequences and you dont need this to produce a quality footwork sequence that shows skill.

Yes! I think the footwork sequence should show deep, beautiful edges. With how short they are skaters are more focused on fitting turns in rather than completing them and making them beautiful. I remember back in the day when clusters could take 5-10 seconds each; now they're more like 2-3 seconds of turns on questionable edges.

But I think this is also a problem with the technical panel. In ice dance, one bad turn downgrades a step sequence. In synchro one bad turn by 2+ skaters is a downgrade in a step sequence. In singles you see tons of bad turns still turning into a level four. I think they used to be better about this - I remember in 2010 the commentators mentioned that Evan Lysacek was the only man to get a L4 step sequence all season. Maybe that should still be the standard - because that's what I'm seeing in step sequences.

Strict tech panel on pre-rotation and under-rotation.

Preach! Particularly pre-rotation - that's one I never see called.

- just as in juniors, prescribed jump to incorporate, but I'd relax it a little and have it usable as either the solo jump or in the combination

I don't know if I agree with this in principle (I like the jump variety in Senior SPs), but I agree that it would certainly make things a lot more interesting so I'm not totally opposed.

Include the ability to land jumps in the Skating Skills score. To me landing jumps is a skating skill. And if you include clean landings in that score, fewer skaters with fab edges and frequent falls would score astronomically.

I've always been told that Skating Skills is what happens on the ice - not in the air. If they are to incorporate landings into it, I would want to see them reward the actual skill of the landing (ie. Kaetlyn Osmond's flow and good position on the way out) and not just the ability to land it (ie. all the competitors who land a jump with no speed or flow coming out and hunch over on their landings).

 

[LaineRine]

It used to be that short programs had required elements and I hope they bring them back. Examples would be a prescribed solo jump that changes each season such as lutz, flip, loop, a required spin such as camel change camel, a specific flying spin, etc. I also like the idea of a spin in one position that doesn't have a billion variations on the end of it.

 

[Vash01]

It used to be that short programs had required elements and I hope they bring them back. Examples would be a prescribed solo jump that changes each season such as lutz, flip, loop, a required spin such as camel change camel, a specific flying spin, etc. I also like the idea of a spin in one position that doesn't have a billion variations on the end of it.

Every skater cannot do the Lutz, for example. Not everyone can do the 3flip. Some are able to do only toe loops and salchows, particularly when it comes to jump combinations. So I am OK with skaters doing the jumps they Can do. You may have thought about the death spiral being defined in pairs skating. Most pairs can do at least 3 out of 4, so it is not a problem there, but for singles I prefer not to put those limits on jumps. Limiting the spins limits the musical expression, so I wouldn't limit those either. Combination spins require a lot of skill, and there are levels. What's the point if you have just one level of spin? The short programs in the past had 8 (I think) required elements but they never put limits on what Type of a jump or spin a skater should do, with the exception of the double axel, which was a requirement. If the lady did a 3A, she did not have to do the 2A, as per my understanding. In the dark ages the ladies were allowed to do only a double as a solo jump in the SP. One jump combination was a requirement and most used to do a 3-2. I am glad that the sport has progressed. However, in the past the SP used to be do or die, and I liked that. With the IJS skaters that place low in the SP can still win with a strong LP, and I do like that part of it. Nobody is out of it until everyone has skated the LP. JMO.

 

[DreamSkates]

Speaking just for myself, I don't want to see adjustments because of who won. I want to see adjustments because the skating game is ever-evolving, and the system needs to match what is being put on the ice.
.

My point of view is that the system needs to keep a better balance of what is being put on the ice, both technically, artistically/performance, and what keeps the skaters from destroying their bodies over time. Mostly, limiting jumping passes in the second half of a program, decreasing the quad points a bit, and not dropping 30 seconds from the LP which would give more time for choreo/artistry/expression.

 

[DreamSkates]

I posted this in another thread with a similar discussion and will post it here. Become part of the conversation. Write to ISU.
On this page (don't click the figure skating tab), scroll all the way down to Contact Us. https://www.isu.org/