War in Israel

[MsZem]

I think it was Arestovich saying `behing every personal heroic act there is a failure of the system'.

Indeed. Civilians and soldiers on the ground have to deal with this mess.

 

[Lynn226]

Israelis attacked and killed in Egypt.

It's going to be a somber Simchat Torah at synagogue this morning. I'm sure even the luncheon will be subdued. I heard services at my synagogue were somber last night.

I wish safety for everyone.

Two Israeli tourists killed in terror attack in Alexandria - JNS.org

Their Egyptian tour guide was also shot dead and another Israeli was wounded.

www.jns.org

 

[PRlady]

(For anyone wondering, Simchat Torah was yesterday in Israel and today in the Diaspora; the calendar is different for this holiday.)

Today is a “normal” day in Israel although our trip to the supermarket just now was what I would call “DC pre-snowstorm.” Except in addition to toilet paper, Israelis stock up on fresh bread and vegetables.

 

[reut]

Tagging @reut who is in Israel as well

Would've preferred not to be tagged in this thread. Thank you.

 

[MsZem]

Death toll estimate has been revised upwards massively - from 350 to 600.

It will continue to rise. Good god.

 

[PRlady]

They found a bunch of slaughtered people from that nature party. This is unbelievably grim.

 

[Andrey aka Pushkin]

I was kind of wondering why thing happened now - rationally speaking, Hammas didn't have any reason to attack. Of course, rationality is not a thing one should consider while talking about Hammas, but I suddenly realized something that was obvious to everyone.

I guess this will fail the potential peace agreement with Saudis, right? That explains the timing and why it was carried out at all, I would guess Iran was super interested in something like this. This also kind of hints the heads of Hammas didn't really plan for this attack to be so successful; something tells me the idea was to send kind of like a suicide squad, have them killed after some clashes, have a small war and go back to status quo, en route blowing up the chances of a peace agreement. But the suicide squad wasn't updated, and managed to cause an amount of damage after which there won't be any legitimation to any Israeli government to toy with Hammas the way Netanyahu has been doing for years.

Do I make any sense? Or is this just a rationalization which is a way to cope with things the brain can't process?

 

[millyskate]

I was kind of wondering why thing happened now - rationally speaking, Hammas didn't have any reason to attack. Of course, rationality is not a thing one should consider while talking about Hammas, but I suddenly realized something that was obvious to everyone.

I guess this will fail the potential peace agreement with Saudis, right? That explains the timing and why it was carried out at all, I would guess Iran was super interested in something like this. This also kind of hints the heads of Hammas didn't really plan for this attack to be so successful; something tells me the idea was to send kind of like a suicide squad, have them killed after some clashes, have a small war and go back to status quo, en route blowing up the chances of a peace agreement. But the suicide squad wasn't updated, and managed to cause an amount of damage after which there won't be any legitimation to any Israeli government to toy with Hammas the way Netanyahu has been doing for years.

Do I make any sense? Or is this just a rationalization which is a way to cope with things the brain can't process?

It does make sense. I also would agree with your analysis that Hammas did probably not anticipate they would be allowed to cause so much destruction and horror before being stopped.
It is not impossible that Russia is also involved, after all this plays greatly into their hands. International attention and aid will now be diverted from Ukraine.

 

[Cachoo]

I was kind of wondering why thing happened now - rationally speaking, Hammas didn't have any reason to attack. Of course, rationality is not a thing one should consider while talking about Hammas, but I suddenly realized something that was obvious to everyone.

I guess this will fail the potential peace agreement with Saudis, right? That explains the timing and why it was carried out at all, I would guess Iran was super interested in something like this. This also kind of hints the heads of Hammas didn't really plan for this attack to be so successful; something tells me the idea was to send kind of like a suicide squad, have them killed after some clashes, have a small war and go back to status quo, en route blowing up the chances of a peace agreement. But the suicide squad wasn't updated, and managed to cause an amount of damage after which there won't be any legitimation to any Israeli government to toy with Hammas the way Netanyahu has been doing for years.

Do I make any sense? Or is this just a rationalization which is a way to cope with things the brain can't process?

I’ve been wondering about this since it happened. They can’t win and lots of folks will die in Hamas infested communities. What is their endgame?

 

[skatingguy]

I'm not sure whether we'll ever know whether Russia was involved, but my feeling is that they have probably given Iran the green light to cause havoc, and the recent addition of Iran to BRICs seems significant.

 

[Vash01]

I'm not sure whether we'll ever know whether Russia was involved, but my feeling is that they have probably given Iran the green light to cause havoc, and the recent addition of Iran to BRICs seems significant.

I agree about Iran. I think Russia is too involved in the Ukraine war, which Russia started.

The Islamic countries in the Middle East don't want Israel to exist. Hamas is a small, militant organization. For them to come up with so much weaponry, strategy, and well rehearsed attack should make anyone suspicious. Israel needs our help, and they will get it. However, a war means loss of precious human life. Sadly Israel has no choice.

 

[Dobre]

Russia did not back this attack, it had been backing and funding Hamas for ages. Either directly or through Iran. My impression is that the current shit (not only here, but generally in the world) is a result of `Ho, it's ok to invade the neighbour country and everyone will just condone, say be a good boy, don't do it and that's it? Hey, let's give it a try, if Russia could perhaps we can as well!'.
Israel's failure in intelligence and the army is well... would love to blame Russia, but, well, no.

Thank you for the response, TAHBKA. It's always good to be able to ask questions from the community on FSU & get out of one's other boxes.

 

[Vash01]

War in the Middle East, war in Ukraine. Can our planet survive?

If you are the praying kind, please pray for Peace on Earth. Sounds a bit early, but we need it all the time,not just in Dececmber.

Right now wishing peace in Israel and Ukraine.

 

[Lynn226]

I was kind of wondering why thing happened now - rationally speaking, Hammas didn't have any reason to attack. Of course, rationality is not a thing one should consider while talking about Hammas, but I suddenly realized something that was obvious to everyone.

I guess this will fail the potential peace agreement with Saudis, right? That explains the timing and why it was carried out at all, I would guess Iran was super interested in something like this. This also kind of hints the heads of Hammas didn't really plan for this attack to be so successful; something tells me the idea was to send kind of like a suicide squad, have them killed after some clashes, have a small war and go back to status quo, en route blowing up the chances of a peace agreement. But the suicide squad wasn't updated, and managed to cause an amount of damage after which there won't be any legitimation to any Israeli government to toy with Hammas the way Netanyahu has been doing for years.

Do I make any sense? Or is this just a rationalization which is a way to cope with things the brain can't process?

@Andrey aka Pushkin Your explanation is as good as any. My only option for continuous live news yesterday was Fox. They mentioned the timing might have something to do with the anniversary of the assassination of Anwar Sadat, which they said was yesterday.

 

[allezfred]

Netanyahu bears responsibility | Editorial

***

www.haaretz.com

 

[Cachoo]

TikTok - Make Your Day

www.tiktok.com

 

[TAHbKA]

TikTok - Make Your Day

www.tiktok.com

Yes, that's the majority of currently killed. Only today more than 250 bodies of the kids who went partying were found

 

[Vash01]

The horror of it and pictures of some kidnap victims. I am sure the pictures are inadequate to capture the horror. The toughest thing for Israel must be bringing the kidnapped Israelis back home.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/08/europe/israel-hostages-hamas-what-we-know-intl/index.html

 

[PRlady]

700 dead reported now. Rumors of a unity center-right government with the main opposition parties to exclude the right-wing fanatics (let’s hope but I won’t believe it til I see it.)

My stepson just spent ten hours helping to gather and pack basic necessities for reservists. The army can’t provide socks, shirts, water and food??

 

[Vash01]

700 dead reported now. Rumors of a unity center-right government with the main opposition parties to exclude the right-wing fanatics (let’s hope but I won’t believe it til I see it.)

My stepson just spent ten hours helping to gather and pack basic necessities for reservists. The army can’t provide socks, shirts, water and food??

So sorry to hear this. Condolences to the families of the victims and best wishes to Israel. I hope this horror ends soon.

 

[MsZem]

My stepson just spent ten hours helping to gather and pack basic necessities for reservists. The army can’t provide socks, shirts, water and food??

There's a rapid mobilization, those are always messy.

But also, people really want to help. This is a way to do that.

 

[airgelaal]

Yes, that's the majority of currently killed. Only today more than 250 bodies of the kids who went partying were found

One of the most popular messages that I have read over the past 2 years is this: why the world supports Ukraine, but not Palestine.
Killing civilians at a festival is not the best way to gain sympathy from the world. Although the videos of people rejoicing at this fact were no less shocking than the fact of the massacre.

 

[Judy]

War is horrific

 

[PRlady]

One of the most popular messages that I have read over the past 2 years is this: why the world supports Ukraine, but not Palestine.
Killing civilians at a festival is not the best way to gain sympathy from the world. Although the videos of people rejoicing at this fact were no less shocking than the fact of the massacre.

I have a couple of friends far to my left on I/P and I’ve been watching their X posts.

We should accept that two decades of imprisoning Gazans with no resolution in sight was a terrible policy practically and morally. And that Palestinian elderly and child civilians have also been arrested, imprisoned and killed for a long time. And that the settlers had a free hand in the WB to torment their neighbors.

But nothing Hamas has done is going to help innocent Palestinians in the short run, they will suffer and die even more. In the long run maybe this will force a solution and the dumpage of both Hamas and apartheid proponents. I’m not optimistic but these days I never am.

 

[TAHbKA]

One of the most popular messages that I have read over the past 2 years is this: why the world supports Ukraine, but not Palestine.
Killing civilians at a festival is not the best way to gain sympathy from the world. Although the videos of people rejoicing at this fact were no less shocking than the fact of the massacre.

Am sure we'll **** up in no time blowing up a school full of kids (with a basement full of hamas fighters, but who cares) and the pictures will be the opposite.
Also up till now Israel refrained from publishing the horror photos of the dismembered bodies. Palestinians - not so much. Most of the horror videos/photos that made it online now of the kidnapped/murdered were published not by Israel

 

[Andrey aka Pushkin]

Israel has a policy of not publishing horror images out of the respect for the dead and their relatives. Other things aside, I think it's a Jewish thing.

But that's of course before the invention of social networks. For that matter, I get news there several hours before the officials, and minutes after the event happens (which is kind of disturbing). Personally, I restrain from looking at the photos, though.

 

[Vash01]

deleted post

 

[leilaofpaper]

deleted

 

[Andrey aka Pushkin]

False, but I'm really not in the mood for this right now

Sorry for being a bad sport, but why won't you leave this particular thread and go to one of the dozens that have been opened on the issue and debated to death and back, including every single argument you can bring and every single response you would get?

 

[ballettmaus]

I want to be very clear - I don’t condone violence and I think the way in which Hamas is acting is horrible. I feel really sorry for all the innocents caught up in this (in Israel and Palestine). But if you want to make a Russia/Ukraine comparison - Palestine is Ukraine.

I am sick of the notion that Israel (the government) has done nothing wrong, they are a settler-colonial state and have and continue to be involved in ethnic cleansing. It’s horrendous that this country that came up in the wake of the Holocaust uses similar tactics to the Nazis circa 1930s.

I believe that people have the right to fight back against an oppressor. Talk about peace treaties all you want - do you think the Israeli government would agree to anything that was actually fair to the Palestinians? Would they let Palestine become a country and give them a fair share of land? They’ve disregarded every partition of land and continued to encroach on Gaza and the West Bank. This is what incentivises people to join organisations like Hamas, to have no sympathy for the everyday civilian.

I agree with the general sentiment that Israel is not simply a victim but this is not "fighting back". This was and is a terrorist attack. I don't think Israel should respond in kind because what is gained by killing innocent and unarmed civilians? If they do that then they wouldn't be any better than the terrorists they're fighting. Still, in this case, it is Israel that suffered a horrible attack and has the right to "fight back".

There is also no excuse for anyone cheering on Hamas. Yes, what Israel is doing to the Palestine people is wrong, still, it doesn't justify what Hamas is doing. Nothing ever justifies terrorist attacks and the brutal killing of civilians.