Vanessa James | Morgan Cipres

From what I read that crash was hard. It must have been so difficult for them today. They have one of my favourite short programs. I looked on the score for T/M and thought for sure I was going to see a masterpiece so you can imagine my surprise when I saw the actual performance. I really don't see the two points between them and S/H. S/H had my favourite performance even though they're battling injury. They make some of our best dancers look like pair skaters. I hope for them all though very good showings in their LPs.
 
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I’m so sad for Vanessa and Morgan. :wuzrobbed The collision looked really painful. Really hoping for a clean FS from them tonight that they can be proud of and hopefully pull up for a medal.

The Olympic Channel is keeping blog during worlds. The one below includes quotes from Vanessa and her coaches. John said the collision 100% affected them.
https://www.olympicchannel.com/en/s...e-skating-world-championships-live-day-three/
 
I can't even remember the last time Morgan made a mistake on jump, I jumped out of my chair in shock.

The judges gave them almost all 4s and 5s for the twist, which makes me think they would have given it to them with a clean skate. That damn crash!
 
laviemn said:
I can't even remember the last time Morgan made a mistake on jump, I jumped out of my chair in shock.

The judges gave them almost all 4s and 5s for the twist, which makes me think they would have given it to them with a clean skate. That damn crash!
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Keep dreaming. I knew the crash would be the convenient post-sp topic of conversation. :blah: No way the judges would have 'given' anything to J/C with a clean skate!!! :rolleyes: J/C would have had to have a purely magical, out-of-this-world, unbelievably perfect skate to top 79+ and 81+ which the judges had already put on the table for S/H and T/M.

The highest ISU score J/C have received in the sp this season is 76.55 at Europeans (and 149.11 in the fp, with a 1 point deduction). At French Nationals, J/C received 82+ in the sp, but nationals scores are usually inflated and don't count as an accurate measure for skaters. No matter how J/C skated, they weren't going to vault to 82+ from 76+. With a clean skate, maybe they could have scored in the range of 77 or 78, but not topping T/Ms and S/Hs overscores.

I didn't see Morgan's mistake on the jump because Vanessa was in the camera's line of sight and she did a triple. But when I saw the ticker box credit only a double sbs jump, I figured Morgan must have made the error. ;( In the lead-up to the competition, I was nervously thinking that Morgan is usually always rock solid. True, I've never ever seen Morgan flub a jumping pass. So as I mentioned earlier the other cases I recall of rock solid jumpers faltering, there's always a first time, usually under great pressure. Morgan surely was also picking up on Vanessa's jittery vibes. If Vanessa could have managed to land the throw, the damage might not have been as bad.

Of course, the collision during warm-up didn't help. But it is conveniently being used as a way to explain away J/C's nervous performance, and to ignore the fact that the judges were doing their best to put top-of-podium marginally out of reach for J/C at their best. Obviously, winning for J/C is now completely out of the question. Had they at least performed clean, it was still possible for J/C to stay close (perhaps in third). But the judges were NOT going to put J/C ahead of T/M. That's pretty clear. If you must, continue on making out as if ISU judges have ever been willing to truly give J/C their due. :lol: J/C know they have to prove it, and prove it, and be absolutely perfect every time out. J/C's scores have been 'managed' since forever, particularly last season when they should have placed ahead of some of the top teams at GP events. The past couple of seasons, J/C have been the exciting team to watch, and many skaters have been influenced by their music choices, costumes and choreography. But that's still never been fully acknowledged.

Finnice said:
All the best for them tomorrow! May they do a Savchenko!
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:huh: This current scenario for J/C has nothing whatsoever to do with Savchenko/Massot at the Olympics, who were in 4th after Massot doubled a jump in the sp. May I remind you: J/C are not Savchenko/Massot, and J/C had errors on their throw as well as the jumping pass. Even should J/C shake off the nerves and skate clean, if everyone else skates clean, J/C will be lucky to even get close to the podium. If others ahead of them make mistakes, getting a bronze might be possible.

Of course, J/C are overall a top-notch team, and they have accomplished more this season than all of the teams in front of them. But that doesn't really count in the eyes of the judges, especially not for J/C. At this point, I do not see either T/M or S/H imploding. I'm sure those teams are thinking: 'Yes, this is the right order of things. We should be on top, not J/C!' T/M knew after Euros, they just had to be clean to possibly edge a perfect J/C. An imperfect J/C is a no-brainer slam dunk for T/M and S/H to beat.
 
Bigbird said:
From what I read that crash was hard. It must have been so difficult for them today. They have one of my favourite short programs. I looked on the score for T/M and thought for sure I was going to see a masterpiece so you can imagine my surprise when I saw the actual performance... S/H had my favourite performance even though they're battling injury...
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The crash didn't help, but again, this is NOT about the crash. Everyone can continue making it about the crash though. Yes, I too question the 81+ score for T/M over S/H. But let's be honest that S/H are not at full strength, and T/M only have to show up and skate clean for the judges to shower them with points. Let's not forget the way the judges consistently over-rewarded T/M for Candyman last season, even with egregious errors, over a beautiful, clean performance by J/C in their home country!!! That result should stay in our figure skating 'outrageous political scoring' memory banks. :COP:

S/H will probably do fine in the scores, even should Sui falter a bit on her jumps. If Sui's strength of will prevails over her physical ailments though, she's unlikely to falter.

cocotaffy said:
They have nothing to lose now so I'm hoping for a great skate they'll be proud of and they might even squeeze onto that podium.
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Well, since J/C (due to not surmounting the pressure) already managed to help themselves lose, they've already lost what the judges seemed intent on keeping just out of their grasp anyway, eh.

At this point, for me it doesn't matter how J/C skate in the fp, and it matters not where they place. The question for me is whether J/C will ultimately decide to come back next season.* Not being able to surmount this tremendous, gut-wrenching test of nerves, I hope won't derail J/C's hopes and their dreams as a talented and engaging partnership. They still possess all the amazing moments they've shared and everything they've managed to overcome. What an incredible few seasons topped by this stellar season! Ultimately, whether J/C will keep their own faith as a team, is the question. Or will Vanessa decide to call it a day, or will they both call it a day? If they don't come back, IMO pairs skating will be the poorer for lacking their presence.

Above all, skaters should try not to forget the importance of never going out on the ice thinking about the possibility of winning. In the end, it's not about winning because the shoddy/ shady ISU judging and crappy way the sport is run should never be allowed to get in the way of doing your best for yourself. And then simply allowing the judging chips to fall where they may.


* I know J/C both answered in pre-Worlds interviews that they anticipate coming back because they have been enjoying winning. I understand that, but I wish they would have avoided publicly succumbing to placing too much emphasis on winning. They will not be winning Worlds this year for sure. Don't give into what other people are saying about your goals, your prospects and who you are.
 
aftershocks said:
Keep dreaming. I knew the crash would be the convenient post-sp topic of conversation. :blah: No way the judges would have 'given' anything to J/C with a clean skate!!! :rolleyes: J/C would have had to have a purely magical, out-of-this-world, unbelievably perfect skate to top 79+ and 81+ which the judges had already put on the table for S/H and T/M.

The highest ISU score J/C have received in the sp this season is 76.55 at Europeans (and 149.11 in the fp, with a 1 point deduction). At French Nationals, J/C received 82+ in the sp, but nationals scores are usually inflated and don't count as an accurate measure for skaters. No matter how J/C skated, they weren't going to vault to 82+ from 76+. With a clean skate, maybe they could have scored in the range of 77 or 78, but not topping T/Ms and S/Hs overscores.

I didn't see Morgan's mistake on the jump because Vanessa was in the camera's line of sight and she did a triple. But when I saw the ticker box credit only a double sbs jump, I figured Morgan must have made the error. ;( In the lead-up to the competition, I was nervously thinking that Morgan is usually always rock solid. True, I've never ever seen Morgan flub a jumping pass. So as I mentioned earlier the other cases I recall of rock solid jumpers faltering, there's always a first time, usually under great pressure. Morgan surely was also picking up on Vanessa's jittery vibes. If Vanessa could have managed to land the throw, the damage might not have been as bad.

Of course, the collision during warm-up didn't help. But it is conveniently being used as a way to explain away J/C's nervous performance, and to ignore the fact that the judges were doing their best to put top-of-podium marginally out of reach for J/C at their best. Obviously, winning for J/C is now completely out of the question. Had they at least performed clean, it was still possible for J/C to stay close (perhaps in third). But the judges were NOT going to put J/C ahead of T/M. That's pretty clear. If you must, continue on making out as if ISU judges have ever been willing to truly give J/C their due. :lol: J/C know they have to prove it, and prove it, and be absolutely perfect every time out. J/C's scores have been 'managed' since forever, particularly last season when they should have placed ahead of some of the top teams at GP events. The past couple of seasons, J/C have been the exciting team to watch, and many skaters have been influenced by their music choices, costumes and choreography. But that's still never been fully acknowledged.



:huh: This current scenario for J/C has nothing whatsoever to do with Savchenko/Massot at the Olympics, who were in 4th after Massot doubled a jump in the sp. May I remind you: J/C are not Savchenko/Massot, and J/C had errors on their throw as well as the jumping pass. Even should J/C shake off the nerves and skate clean, if everyone else skates clean, J/C will be lucky to even get close to the podium. If others ahead of them make mistakes, getting a bronze might be possible.

Of course, J/C are overall a top-notch team, and they have accomplished more this season than all of the teams in front of them. But that doesn't really count in the eyes of the judges, especially not for J/C. At this point, I do not see either T/M or S/H imploding. I'm sure those teams are thinking: 'Yes, this is the right order of things. We should be on top, not J/C!' T/M knew after Euros, they just had to be clean to possibly edge a perfect J/C. An imperfect J/C is a no-brainer slam dunk for T/M and S/H to beat.
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Though T/M over the last seasons have been pretty nervous competitors, I agree with you that they are going to sail through that one ... they have nothing to fear. Many Russian athletes are a breed born of harshest training and instillation that they are the best ever. Especially in pairs where they have dominated for so long.

S/H looked very shaky to me before the SD: she looked positively nauseous. I really thought that she was going to be sick. She recovered from her nerves (?) after the successful throw.

I knew before J/C took the ice that Vanessa was in a bad place mentally. I had never seen her so closed off. Morgan focused on her to try to make her loosen up but she was in a bad "head space", you could tell. That kind of stuff is hard to shake off.

I really feel for Vanessa and Morgan and hope that they skate their hearts out tonight. They have achieved Gold at the European Championships this year and it is nothing to sneer at. They can proudly look back at their season. I just wished they could still pull a podium today!
 
Coco said:
Vanessa seems to have a good perspective on a horrible situation to deal with. She's a good sport.
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She has to be a good sport and have a good perspective, in order to be black and compete at the highest level in the elitist, political sport of figure skating. Vanessa has always smiled and looked on the bright side, and maintained her focus, under all kinds of difficult circumstances.

I don't care what is said. It's not that much about the crash. She was already nervous, but sure J/C still might have pulled through to a better result had the crash not happened. I'm sorry if it was so serious they are thinking about not skating in the fp! If that's the case, then some of that decision is surely partly based upon feeling really down about their sp performance and their placement after such a stellar season. And also, unfortunately, the ISU sees fit not to give pairs skaters a rest day! It could be a difficult turnaround after being so shaken up physically and mentally.
 
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Small bronze, and a strong skate they can be proud of - just one error in the whole thing. They looked so relieved at the end. I'm really happy for them; yesterday must have felt like a nightmare, but this will have helped to clear the air.

And they don't plan to retire yet! Maybe I'll get to see them at Euros next year after all...
 
aftershocks said:
I don't care what is said.
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And you should because you are not only being totally ridiculous here but some of what you say is also really infuriating. Who do you think you are ? Some psychic who can read people's mind through you computer monitor or TV screen ?

It's not that much about the crash.
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Yes it definitely is ! Vanessa is a very tiny woman who hit a big strong man, both going full speed and full force. Even Matteo was afraid she'd be injured before thinking about himself. He twisted his knee while trying to soften the shock and protect her because he is perfectly conscious of their difference in weight and size.

She was already nervous,
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But ALL skaters are nervous before they take the ice !! It doesn't always show according to their different characters, but all competitors are nervous before it's their turn to perform. The problem isn't being nervous but how to master it. Vanessa is able to master her nerves, she showed it countless times. And when she cannot, she also admits it. That was not the case before the collision, she wasn't particularly nervous. You are not in her head, you can absolutely not feel and tell what she feels. You have strictly no idea who Vanessa is and how she reacts to situations. What you think of her is only, at best, your imagination and at worst, your presumptuous self thinking you can analyze people from a few images on TV. Sorry but you can't. You can wallow in your certainties as much as you want, harp them on again and again, permanently lay stodgy essays, it will not change the fact you haven't the slightest clue of what's happening in Vanessa (or anyone else)'s head.

I'm sorry if it was so serious they are thinking about not skating in the fp! If that's the case, then some of that decision is surely partly based upon feeling really down about their sp performance and their placement after such a stellar season.
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B.S. ! This is insulting to the good fighters they are. They have taken part in international competitions when one of them was seriously injured in the past. They have skated with one of them having a 102° fever. They would NEVER withdraw from a competition as long as they can both stand on their feet. They are both incredible fighters. And the way you dismissed the seriousness of the collision between Vanessa and Matteo is totally infuriating. It takes someone blind or totally stupid not to understand how shaking it was for both parties and also for their partners. When you still have a headache from the shock 24h later, it means it was a serious matter and that you have sustained a mild to severe concussion. Something skaters are unfortunately used to. Vanessa and Morgan are way too proud and ready for the fight to hide between false excuses and pretexts. They have butchered programs in the past and willingly admitted it was entirely their fault. They never give up. They might have in a distant past, because, unlike what you affirm about Vanessa, she wasn't always that much of a fighter and always smiling and always seeing the positive side of things, and perfectly maintaining her focus, nor was Morgan. But they have worked their heart out to change that, to become who they are now, they have learnt and grown and improved on every level tremendously. You definitely know nothing about them and your assertions are totally beside the point. NOW (i.e. for the past 3 or 4 years) they do maintain their focus and always see things on the positive side. And if, according to your wild theory, Vanessa has always "looked on the bright side and maintain her focus under all kinds of difficult circumstances", why would she have been more nervous than usual before the SP ? There isn't an ounce of logic in what you spout. She had difficulties controling her nerves after the collision and Morgan was worried for her. But I assume that even what she says is of no importance to you since you know her better than she knows herself.

And also, unfortunately, the ISU sees fit not to give pairs skaters a rest day! It could be a difficult turnaround after being so shaken up physically and mentally.
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So now they were actually "so shaken physically and mentally" ? I thought the reason why they had a bad SP was Vanessa being nervous and that the collision was just a pretext ?! That's what happens when you write posts for the sake of writing and the sweet pleasure of reading your own keyboard diarrhea. You end up contradicting yourself all along because you don't even remember what you said before. For the record I'm not a crazy worshipping fan of J/C, I just happen to work for some FS media. As I talk to them on a regular basis, I know a little bit about how they function. Frankly, they haven't always been who they are today and the way they have been able to become who they are now is praiseworthy. What you repeatedly said in this thread drove me nuts ! Kudos for getting on my nerves to this incredible point, it's a real feat. Until now I was only scrolling down your interminable tomes, but now welcome to my ignore list. Where you'll be very lonely since there is no-one else there. Consider yourself honored !

Edited : typos
 
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Eh @cholla, and thanks for your essay. If you think I was putting Vanessa and Morgan down, I was not. I was upset for them because they are such a great team and I don't think they have always gotten the credit they deserve. And it infuriates me that too often the go-to critique of V&M is that they don't have good skating skills, instead of them being fully acknowledged and credited for the talent they do have, and for how much they've improved over the years.

Of course everyone experiences nerves. I love Vanessa's honesty about having nerves, and I admire her usual fierceness in managing the pressure and being consistent. Even with nerves, Vanessa has generally been able to manage competitive pressure very well, so she and Morgan probably would have been able to do better in the sp had the crash not happened. What I don't like is the fact the crash is being used as an excuse, not by Vanessa & Morgan, but in general, which takes attention away from the fact the judges definitely piled on the scores for T/M and S/H in the sp. And some other teams were also heavily rewarded.

Of course Vanessa and Matteo were both shook up when they collided. Although such things can happen at the worst, inopportune times, the fact it happened to Vanessa at that moment is rather devastating since it shook her up physically, and did not help to lessen her nerves. I don't think the crash is the sole reason for the sp outcome though. So shoot me. As others have noted in this thread, Vanessa had a very tense, distant look on her face before taking the ice for the sp. She doesn't normally look that tense. It was a deer-in-the-headlights type of look, which is understandable. I've experienced that myself, so I know what it feels like. Maybe she could have shaken it off had the crash not happened. But it's possible the crash happened because she was too much in her head. You can get mad and call me out for saying that. I know that I don't personally know Vanessa or know exactly what she was thinking. But this is how I feel about what I saw. I'm not putting Vanessa down. I'm just acknowledging what she and Morgan were up against, despite their huge talent and the fact they've won all their other events, deservedly so this season.

And again, since I really love V&M as people and as a team, I'm really bummed for what happened in the sp. I'm not going to dismiss the way the judges have generally always tried to manage V&M's scores (there are clear instances where that's happened). I'm sure V&M don't put any focus on that, because they are too busy working hard and going after their dreams. They are both very remarkable, and they've made an important impact on the pairs field these last few seasons, which I wish would be acknowledged more. For me, it's painful to realize (even though it should have been clear) that being on top at Worlds was just out of reach for V&M, despite the fact they have been the best pairs team this season. It's hard having to not only battle nerves and the top opponents, but also judges' perceptions and scoring decisions, which in a number of notorious instances have not been fair to V&M. Yes, it's a tough sport, and it's hugely difficult for everyone, and stuff happens to everyone. But Vanessa knows the bar is higher for her. She once said as much in an interview. I know exactly what she means.

I'm glad to hear V&M plan to come back next season, because they are one of the best teams worth watching. Vanessa seemed loose and more herself before the fp. And they gave it their all. It's such a great program for them! Fine that they got a small medal, but that's small consolation for a team that should have been on the podium. The final flight at Worlds was a snooze-fest until Sui/Han came out, worked their magic and brought the house down.
 
https://www.instagram.com/p/BvZoy2HgFk9/
Wow, such beauty, strength and sass; That neck decoration tho'! :swoon: What a perfect pair!
Vanessa et Morgan (((Hugs))) Morgan is blazingly handsome, sweet and cool

https://www.instagram.com/p/BvbWsHkgzWl/
Lady in Red, indeed! What a smile, what grace and humility

https://www.instagram.com/p/BvW8rahA4qy/
:wuzrobbed
Thank you, Vanessa! Class, sass, dash and determination
The sp disappointment hurt a lot, because I care, perhaps too much; Thank you for continuing to show how grace matters in all things :saint:
Stay strong Vanessa & Morgan! You have championship mettle! Ah yes, make some magic in Montreal ♥️
Yours are the programs I enjoy watching over and over again for all these past several years
 
aftershocks said:
Above all, skaters should try not to forget the importance of never going out on the ice thinking about the possibility of winning. In the end, it's not about winning because the shoddy/ shady ISU judging and crappy way the sport is run should never be allowed to get in the way of doing your best for yourself. And then simply allowing the judging chips to fall where they may.
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Nothing wrong with going out on the ice intent on winning, especially if it is within a skater's grasp. S/H did just that in pairs - they skated to win, whereas T/M skated not to lose.

When Alexei Yagudin entered the 2001/2002 season, he said that winning the Olympics was his destiny. And he skated like it was - IIRC he won every competition he entered that season, maybe barring one early season comp (don't remember).
 
^^ Sure @Japanfan, that's definitely the goal and the intent for champion competitors. But, once you go out on the ice, winning is not something that should be swirling around in your head. I've heard many athletes express the importance of not thinking too much at such moments. That's the point. Of course, I don't know what was going through any of the competitors minds when they went out on the ice. In my earlier post, I was remembering a comment by Vanessa in a print interview leading up to Worlds, about the enjoyment of winning and wanting to continue having that experience. That's fine and understandable too. But focusing too much on the desire or expectation of others to win can seemingly add to the pressure, especially when rival competitors have just pulled down humongous scores. Of course champions want to win, and once you do, you expect to even more. But there is surely a balance that's necessary, so that thoughts of winning do not get in the way when you have to perform.

I don't even understand how athletes are able to perform under such big-time pressure. I do know what the feeling of butterflies in the stomach is like under moments of performing or speaking in front of an audience. But I think the competition pressure for high level athletes is a different animal altogether.

This was a big moment for Vanessa & Morgan. They've faced many big pressure moments and come through plenty of times. But coming into Worlds as top favorites must be a new and different feeling. It's good that they've now experienced that feeling. V&M are the real deal, so I'm looking forward to seeing them come back even stronger next season.

S/H are always intent on winning. But I doubt that uppermost in their minds were thoughts such as, "We must win; Can we beat T/M's score? or, What happens if we don't win?" Especially not during the act of performing. On the ice, S/H were intensely performing to their best level and giving it their all with passion and desire. Winning was the result because they weren't performing with tightness or over-anxiety. In the fp, V&M seemed much more relaxed and confident, like they usually appear. They were probably focused on performing their best, which they've done pretty much all season with this great fp. I'm sure they were hoping to move up, but I don't think it would have been helpful to be thinking when they were performing, about where they might place. Those thoughts are probably more prevalent while sitting in the kiss 'n cry.
 
Japanfan said:
... [S/H] skated to win, whereas T/M skated not to lose.
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That's an interesting contrasting description, that's often said about athletes. Both teams wanted to win, and realizing that their toughest competition had a lot of points to make up, both teams knew they were fighting each other for gold. Perhaps both were conscious of not wanting to make mistakes, but they would have had to balance that, because if you think during the act of performing, 'Don't make an error,' that's what's liable to happen.

T/M were in first place, so of course they wanted to hold that ground. I'm not sure they were skating not to lose though. Maybe it's more accurate to say they weren't skating with the visible intensity and passion of S/H, but then T/M never show much passion on the ice. Mainly T/M probably seemed a bit more cautious, but both teams skated well. However, S/H were magical and were performing at a higher level. But that doesn't mean T/M weren't skating to win. They just didn't match S/H's level.

On TSL, Meagan Duhamel commented that she felt T/M thought they had won, until they saw their fp score total, which she felt they may then have realized might not be enough against S/H.
 
aftershocks said:
The highest ISU score J/C have received in the sp this season is 76.55 at Europeans (and 149.11 in the fp, with a 1 point deduction). At French Nationals, J/C received 82+ in the sp, but nationals scores are usually inflated and don't count as an accurate measure for skaters. No matter how J/C skated, they weren't going to vault to 82+ from 76+. With a clean skate, maybe they could have scored in the range of 77 or 78, but not topping T/Ms and S/Hs overscores.

But the judges were NOT going to put J/C ahead of T/M. That's pretty clear. If you must, continue on making out as if ISU judges have ever been willing to truly give J/C their due. :lol: J/C know they have to prove it, and prove it, and be absolutely perfect every time out. J/C's scores have been 'managed' since forever, particularly last season when they should have placed ahead of some of the top teams at GP events. The past couple of seasons, J/C have been the exciting team to watch, and many skaters have been influenced by their music choices, costumes and choreography. But that's still never been fully acknowledged.
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They won GPF, beating T/M there. With 71.51 in the SP and 148.37 in the LP.

So, it's possible they can do the same again.
 
Japanfan said:
So, it's possible they can do the same again.
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Anything is possible... It's about hard work and self-belief. But ah, in a judged sport like figure skating, one must be even more single-minded, focused and chill. There's no question about what V&M are capable of achieving. They've proved their worth, expertise and mettle plenty of times over.

If you watched any of the Worlds post-event press conferences, a number of athletes spoke about trying not to 'think too much,' when competing and even during warm-ups. They all try as much as possible to not allow outside distractions to enter their mind, such as the scores of other competitors, even though it's not always possible to not hear cheers or scores for other competitors. Specifically, Yuzu Hanyu talked about how in the sp warm-up he found himself 'thinking too much' about his salchow jump, and how that didn't work for him during the performance.

It was a bit of a slog listening to the press conferences, simply because of all the language translations that were necessary. Unless you are a linguist with an understanding of Russian, Japanese, Chinese, Engish, etc., it was rather time-consuming, with the necessity to skip forward past so much of the endless back-and-forth translations. But some fairly good questions were asked generally, with cool responses, especially during the men's sp and fp post-event pressers. Nathan Chen hit out of the ballpark a question he was asked about skating after Pooh-bears haved rained down on the ice! :D :kickass:

Anyway, here's a clip of the small medal pairs fp ceremony, where there's brief glimpses of Vanessa & Morgan, and they get to speak a few words to the gathering. Unfortunately, the clip does not include the actual awarding of the small medals: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNh6nun7Iog
 
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