U.S. Men in 2018 - articles & latest news

[Carolla5501]

Johnny and Tara made "a stink" about Jason's triple axel being ratified at Nationals 2018. They were startlingly vehement about it. So complaints can go both ways- the skater is a martyr or the skater was unfairly gifted.

I have no idea how much influence TV commentators have on tech panels and judges, but they probably have influence over TV audiences, and since without TV and audiences figure skating would hardly exist as a sport, that's something to be reckoned with.

Johnny and Tara made a stink proves only that they can talk, nothing else and I doubt the "bling team" has any influence over those who count... and honestly the way the way ratings are going I don't think they have that much influence over TV audiences as they would need an audience to influence.

 

[kwanfan1818]

I don't know if Mirai Nagasu is someone I'd cite for an opinion on under-rotations.

 

[VGThuy]

I would. She would know them better than anybody and unlike some callers, actually knows what it feels like to do a triple.

 

[mackiecat]

I would. She would know them better than anybody and unlike some callers, actually knows what it feels like to do a triple.

Pretty sure Scott Davis knows what it feels like to do a triple too (and clean ones at that)

 

[toddlj]

Pretty sure Scott Davis knows what it feels like to do a triple too (and clean ones at that)

I'm old enough to remember him cheating a triple here and there.

ETA: If I had to guess, I'd guess Scott was trying to follow the new rules diligently. It remains to be seen how other callers in the GP will handle this, and if it will seem even.

 

[Cleo1782]

Please don't make assumptions. I don't personally know all the details, but I do recall that Vincent was injured. You don't have any evidence that he 'quit.' It could have taken that long for him to rehabilitate. After surgery it may not have been a given that he was considered healthy enough to make it back, and certainly not on a dime.

There actually is evidence that Zhou took a break for reasons other than injury. He was strongly thinking of quitting and going to school. He did take an extended break. And then took time to figure out what he wanted.
Here's one of a few interviews where he explains it-
https://web.archive.org/web/20150602035425/http://www.icenetwork.com/news/2015/06/01/127901186

 

[Tavi]

I would. She would know them better than anybody and unlike some callers, actually knows what it feels like to do a triple.

Actually, I believe callers are required to have competed at the senior level - though I’m not sure if they’re required to have competed for Team USA. To call at the ISU level, I think they first need quite a bit of documented experience calling at lower levels.

 

[misskarne]

I would. She would know them better than anybody and unlike some callers, actually knows what it feels like to do a triple.

I wouldn't, because she always seems so shocked whenever her TES goes down for underrotations, implying that she can't feel them.

To be an ISU caller you have to have skated at a high level. And you don't have to have done a jump to know the mechanics of it, the theory, and whether it's rotated or not - else how did Mishin teach quads to his young men, or a triple Axel to Liza?

 

[Erin]

Actually, I believe callers are required to have competed at the senior level - though I’m not sure if they’re required to have competed for Team USA. To call at the ISU level, I think they first need quite a bit of documented experience calling at lower levels.

I don't think they are required to have competed at the senior level to be an ISU caller. I believe they are required to have competed internationally and competing as a junior appears to count. I can think of at least one caller for Canada who has competed as an international junior but not at the senior level. (He did also compete at the senior level domestically, but definitely not internationally as a senior and so he would not be able to be a caller if competing as a senior internationally were a requirement.) Given that different country's domestic requirements for junior and senior are different, following international rather than domestic requirements makes sense.

Competing for "Team USA" is obviously not a requirement because not all of the callers are American.

 

[mackiecat]

Here are the requirements:
Background:
i) be recruited from the group of Coaches, former competitive Skaters, or ISU/International Judges or Referees;
ii) be involved on at least a weekly basis for the discipline concerned on site;
iii) have been a former high level Skater (as a minimum at national level);
iv) have the highest knowledge of the discipline concerned with regards to the technical aspects;
v) possess good communication skills;
vi) be able to take directions and work within a team
environment.

 

[VGThuy]

Pretty sure Scott Davis knows what it feels like to do a triple too (and clean ones at that)

Nothing I said about Mirai disparaged Scott Davis specifically nor did I say Scott Davis never landed a triple. I only meant to say Mirai doing a lot of URs might make her a bit knowledgeable about it. That's why I used the word "some" callers. Maybe they all knew how to do triples during a time when it wasn't scrutinized the way it is now. Maybe when they competed back in the day they would be like Mirai and displeased with their TES if there was a IJS and stringent rotation calling during their day. Just like with Tom Z's post, I fear some of you should learn to read more carefully.

I'm old enough to remember him cheating a triple here and there.

ETA: If I had to guess, I'd guess Scott was trying to follow the new rules diligently. It remains to be seen how other callers in the GP will handle this, and if it will seem even.

What he said. But I guess Scott Davis and all Tech Callers are gods now and beyond reproach unlike the skaters currently competing and being dissected.

 

[vesperholly]

Are you talking about Tara and Johnny? If so, you undermine your argument by dismissing them through name calling. But putting that aside, maybe we listened to different broadcasts because they called plenty of under rotations in real time. And to suggest that they have "untrained" eyes? They have spent their life in the sport.

I understand that Tara and Johnny may not be everyone's cup of tea, but I don't think they are the ignorant idiots you present them to be.

Oh come on, the Hunger Game reference was a joke, and I'm not the first to say it by a long shot.

They undermine themselves when they gush about a "perfectly clean" jump and then the replay shows the underrotation. They had to walk back their comments several times when the slow-motion is shown and then it turned out the caller did mark a jump underrotated. I never said that they didn't see/mention underrotations in real time.

Tara and Johnny are not technical specialists, they are not trained as technical specialists in what the rules are, and I don't think they can or even try to scrutinize jumps that happen 100+ feet away from them the way the technical specialist does. They don't have access to the same video that the specialists are looking at.

 

[sk8nlizard]

Here are the requirements:
Background:
i) be recruited from the group of Coaches, former competitive Skaters, or ISU/International Judges or Referees;
ii) be involved on at least a weekly basis for the discipline concerned on site;
iii) have been a former high level Skater (as a minimum at national level);
iv) have the highest knowledge of the discipline concerned with regards to the technical aspects;
v) possess good communication skills;
vi) be able to take directions and work within a team
environment.

Could some people be grandfathered in! I know of a technical specialist who has an international appointment who I don’t believe ever competed at Nationals, however this person has had students make Nationals, would that count?

 

[Debbie S]

I believe in the U.S., tech specialists must have qualified for Sectionals (at least) at the Novice level or higher or coached a student to that level/comps.

 

[el henry]

I read Tom Z.'s post carefully; I may have issues, but reading comprehension is generally not one of them.

I stand by what I said earlier. If I were in a trial with Tom Z., and he wrote that, or said that to a judge, I would be sitting on my hands to stop myself from clapping on how I got so lucky that my opposing counsel was so tone deaf.

But anyone who thinks that Tom is just standing up for truth, justice and the American way isn't going to be influenced by me, and my mind won't be changed on what a bad idea that post was.

So how *will* Jason do, and can we believe that they didn't change the costume from that horrible bowling shirt

 

[insideedgeua]

I thought that yesterday’s post from Tom walked a careful line. He said some things that needed to be said in general, without making it all about Vincent.

Today’s follow up post though, I’m not so sure about that. It’s a lot more pointed.

While he may have had a lot of support with his initial views, I sure hope he asked Jeroen Prins for his permission to republish his opinions.

 

[insideedgeua]

Sorry, I forgot, obligatory Jason comment. He’s a nice kid, I like him, that costume though. Nope.

 

[SmallFairy]

I didn't mind Jason's FS program concept that much (agree on the shirt though) but they should definitely have introduced Hazy shade of winter a lot sooner! I liked the first, quiet part, it just lasted too long. I think in the heated discussion I read that Old friends is a song about old friends, but to me there's universal feelings and problems in the lyrics, so I have no problem with Jason as a young person skating to it. I guess he likes it, so then he should do it. Last time was the first outing, so I can forgive the program being a bit empty (tech focus...) but I hope some more in betweens will be added.

(Btw I love Simon and Garfunkel and want someone to do Scarborough fair. Ice dancers maybe?)

Good luck Jason!

 

[wickedwitch]

I stand by what I said earlier. If I were in a trial with Tom Z., and he wrote that, or said that to a judge, I would be sitting on my hands to stop myself from clapping on how I got so lucky that my opposing counsel was so tone deaf.

...

So how *will* Jason do, and can we believe that they didn't change the costume from that horrible bowling shirt

I'm really fascinated by how Tom Z is going about this from a rhetorical perspective. Because I agree, I don't think he's doing a good job arguing his case.

His goal should be to get Vincent to not get marked for borderline underrotations at future competitions. His way of going about this is to say there were jumps marked at SA that weren't 90 degrees underrotated. But he's not doing anything to counter the impression that Vincent has a chronic underrotation problem. If anything, he's drawing attention to the issue and cementing in the minds of people following this that Vincent underrotates a ton.

Unless he's trying to win over the general public -- and I'm fairly confident they weren't his intended audience -- including chronic underrotator Mirai's comments seems like he can't find anyone better to help his case and weakens his argument.

His point about getting better video, while absolutely true, does a poor job disguising his true goal.

And hopefully Jason's costume will be the only travesty from his competition at Skate Canada.

 

[Tavi]

From what Jason said, the music was suggested by the ice dance coach at TCC, and Brian, Tracy, and David Wilson got all excited and decided he should do it. When they played the music he hated it, but they said let’s just do the program and if you still hate it we’ll scrap it. Unsurprisingly, Jason, who has always been a “pleaser,” says that after it was choreographed, “I fell in love with it.” So that’s why he has that program.

I personally think they should have scrapped it, but we didn’t see it at its best at ACI, so I’m gonna give it the benefit of the doubt one more time. So far, though, I think it’s pretty boring and generic.

The costume is just a big no. And it looked far worse to me when I saw it in person than it does on YouTube. Ugh.

 

[Theoreticalgirl]

I'm sorry if I'm opening up a can of worms here and maybe it's obvious to others, but what would folks consider the appropriate angle(s) to view a jump and assess rotation? Is it one perspective, or multiple? And if multiple, which ones (and how would you decide which one to use for an official decision)?

 

[Tavi]

I'm sorry if I'm opening up a can of worms here and maybe it's obvious to others, but what would folks consider the appropriate angle(s) to view a jump and assess rotation? Is it one perspective, or multiple? And if multiple, which ones (and how would you decide which one to use for an official decision)?

Could you maybe start a new thread for this?

 

[jiejie]

I'm sorry if I'm opening up a can of worms here and maybe it's obvious to others, but what would folks consider the appropriate angle(s) to view a jump and assess rotation? Is it one perspective, or multiple? And if multiple, which ones (and how would you decide which one to use for an official decision)?

I've been waiting for someone to ask this question. Since this is off-topic here, I agree with above, start a new thread on this and I'd love to contribute.

 

[aftershocks]

There actually is evidence that Zhou took a break for reasons other than injury. He was strongly thinking of quitting and going to school. He did take an extended break. And then took time to figure out what he wanted.
Here's one of a few interviews where he explains it-
https://web.archive.org/web/20150602035425/http://www.icenetwork.com/news/2015/06/01/127901186

Thanks @Cleo, especially for locating the IceNetwork article by Sarah Brannen. I'm glad you knew or figured out a way to find it via the WayBack feature on the Internet. Yay! This is the article I'd read previously, but could not recall in detail. I think the main point is that injury took Vincent off of his focus on competing, and as a result, other interests gained more of his attention. He had originally planned to move directly to seniors. It seems to me that sometimes being able to slow down and take time off (often precipitated by injury) can actually benefit athletes. Adam Rippon spoke about how his foot injury and the time that was necessitated for him to heal was actually a boon. It gave Adam time to reassess his goals, and to become even more fit and purposeful in his training.

In Vincent's case, he was still very young, and it was probably a good thing for him to have that time to heal his injuries and to pursue his interest in math, which he's good at. And then with the passage of time, as the article mentions, Vincent realized how much he missed skating. And he decided to return with even greater focus and determination. Who knows whether or not going directly to seniors without this break would have been the best thing for Vincent? So it all seemingly has worked out for the best in the end. And the scenario for Vincent is certainly not like the poster I responded to was framing.

 

[Willin]

Based on the gossip I've heard there were other factors for Vincent's break at play as well... Mostly involving the commute down to LA every week to train and the problem of not being able to train close to home. An injury was definitely part of it though.
I'd imagine when he went back to LA to pick up to work with Tammy they stayed down there full time rather than commuting.

 

[Impromptu]

Actual news for this thread - nice long introspective Jason Brown article:

https://olympics.nbcsports.com/2018...tory-ahead-of-skate-canada-and-2022-olympics/

 

[A.H.Black]

Actual news for this thread - nice long introspective Jason Brown article:

https://olympics.nbcsports.com/2018...tory-ahead-of-skate-canada-and-2022-olympics/

Nice article. I like Phil Hersh's writing, even though he is a grouch sometimes. This is Hersh writing very well with good perspectives from Jason. Good luck to Jason this week.

 

[StitchMonkey]

From what Jason said, the music was suggested by the ice dance coach at TCC, and Brian, Tracy, and David Wilson got all excited and decided he should do it. When they played the music he hated it, but they said let’s just do the program and if you still hate it we’ll scrap it. Unsurprisingly, Jason, who has always been a “pleaser,” says that after it was choreographed, “I fell in love with it.” So that’s why he has that program.

I personally think they should have scrapped it, but we didn’t see it at its best at ACI, so I’m gonna give it the benefit of the doubt one more time. So far, though, I think it’s pretty boring and generic.

The costume is just a big no. And it looked far worse to me when I saw it in person than it does on YouTube. Ugh.

Honestly the whole "you can scrap it" thing was either a coaching misstep or manipulative. All of Jason's fans know he struggles to learn new choreography and takes time. Frankly scraping a free skate in the summer was not in the timeline for Jason and everyone should have seen that. But ohh well. What is done is done.

That free is a disappointment at best. I was looking forward to seeing what David would do and it seems he just thinks Jason can't skate.

That shirt... well it would be an awesome shirt to wear bowling... but still it's a bowling shirt and he is not bowling.

I almost think they should switch to the Bangles version for Hazy Shade at the end... might give it a little more fun and energy and pop at the end.

 

[Tavi]

Honestly the whole "you can scrap it" thing was either a coaching misstep or manipulative. All of Jason's fans know he struggles to learn new choreography and takes time. Frankly scraping a free skate in the summer was not in the timeline for Jason and everyone should have seen that. But ohh well. What is done is done.

That free is a disappointment at best. I was looking forward to seeing what David would do and it seems he just thinks Jason can't skate.

That shirt... well it would be an awesome shirt to wear bowling... but still it's a bowling shirt and he is not bowling.

I almost think they should switch to the Bangles version for Hazy Shade at the end... might give it a little more fun and energy and pop at the end.

The good news is that in the article posted by @Impromptu (thanks, great article!) he says they will be tweaking the program, changing jump order, and adding in transitions over time, so maybe it will eventually be a good program. That shirt though - there’s no hope for it!

 

[RoseRed]

Honestly the whole "you can scrap it" thing was either a coaching misstep or manipulative. All of Jason's fans know he struggles to learn new choreography and takes time. Frankly scraping a free skate in the summer was not in the timeline for Jason and everyone should have seen that. But ohh well. What is done is done.

That free is a disappointment at best. I was looking forward to seeing what David would do and it seems he just thinks Jason can't skate.

That shirt... well it would be an awesome shirt to wear bowling... but still it's a bowling shirt and he is not bowling.

I almost think they should switch to the Bangles version for Hazy Shade at the end... might give it a little more fun and energy and pop at the end.

Not necessarily. It's pretty common for the initial choreo of a program to take 2-3 days. For example, when Stellato/Bartholomay went to Montreal choreo choreo with MFD, they said it took a couple of days to finish. It will take longer for the skater to learn it and get it down, obviously, but initial choreo is often done pretty fast. If they did it that way, you'd get the program sketched out and then David would be around to keep working on it as Jason learned it more and more. And I've heard multiple skaters talk about scrapping a program around this stage - like they starting choreographing it and found it didn't work, or finished it and then decided they didn't like it. Now, I don't know if this is how they worked with Jason, but scrapping a program after 3 days or a week would not be a disaster timeline-wise. I have no idea if that's what they meant in terms of when they could scrap the program, but it could be.