U.S. Men 2025-26 Discussion - Quad God and the Mere Mortals

My Olympic dream team for the men is Ilia, Tomoki, and Maxim with Andrew as alternate. I love Jason but he's really shaken my confidence with his Axels which seem to have abandoned him and all of those doubled jumps. That would likely be a disaster in the Team Event. Andrew shook my confidence in him at Worlds but he does seem to have the most firepower after Ilia - if he's on. Tomoki was pretty consistent after Jason during the season and his jumps haven't abandoned him (unlike Jason 🥺). Max has quads too, he's not the most consistent but I'd love to see if he can rise to the occasion on a global stage. If not at the Olympics, I hope that he's sent to Worlds!
 
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Sasha'sSpins said:
My Olympic dream team for the men is Ilia, Tomoki, and Maxim with Andrew as alternate. I love Jason but he's really shaken my confidence with his Axels which seem to have abandoned him and all of those doubled jumps. That would likely be a disaster in the Team Event. Andrew shook my confidence in him at Worlds with not even making the FS but he does seem to have the most firepower after Ilia - if he's on. Tomoki was pretty consistent after Jason during the season and his jumps haven't abandoned him (unlike Jason 🥺). Max has quads too, he's not the most consistent but I'd love to see if he can rise to the occasion on a global stage. If not at the Olympics, I hope that he's sent to Worlds!
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Uhm, Andrew has made the FS at both Worlds he's competed. He just hasn't finished very well at either of them.

ETA - this isn't directed at you, but I find it highly amusing that people are dismissing Tomoki because of his 4th & 9th place finishes at CoC & SCI respectively & downplaying the two bronze medals he won at Kinoshita Group Cup & Trialeti Trophy, while conveniently forgetting Max's own 9th place finishes at GPdF and Lombardia & 4th place finish at Tallinn Trophy. That 1st place, insanely over-scored result from IceChallenge where he posted a SB that is .99 higher than Tomoki and now Nationals where he bested Tomoki by 1.92 points are, literally, the only things you can hang your hats to justify a sentimental desire to have him on the Olympic team. I realize it's a feel good story that may very well come true but if BOW means anything, it should mean something here and Max's BOW compared to Tomoki's just isn't there. We'll know what the selection committee does in a few hours, but I really hope they take into consideration that Tomoki and Andrew are the only two men who delivered at least one clean program this week and then look at their BOW when they make this decision.
 
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Jammers said:
It's called old age. It can hit fast when you age as a athlete.
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Yup. I posted a similar comment on the Canadian pairs thread about Stellato & Deschamps. We've never seen athletes compete at the elite level for as long as they are today. Athletes are competing at ages that would've been unthinkable 10-15 years ago. That can be a great thing, but bodies also don't last forever. We've seen this year with a number of skaters -- Brown, SD&D, Guignard and Fabbri -- that their bodies are simply giving out and no longer capable of what they used to be able to do. This is a perfectly normal occurrence and has always happened. It just used to happen on the pro / show circuit, somewhat invisibly, rather than on the elite level in full view of the world. There are a number of skaters who needed their bodies to last 1-2 years longer than they did. I'm sure it hurts to have almost made it to 2026, but they should still celebrate their long and rewarding careers.
 
Karen-W said:
Uhm, Andrew has made the FS at both Worlds he's competed. He just hasn't finished very well at either of them.

ETA - this isn't directed at you, but I find it highly amusing that people are dismissing Tomoki because of his 4th & 9th place finishes at CoC & SCI respectively & downplaying the two bronze medals he won at Kinoshita Group Cup & Trialeti Trophy, while conveniently forgetting Max's own 9th place finishes at GPdF and Lombardia & 4th place finish at Tallinn Trophy. That 1st place, insanely over-scored result from IceChallenge where he posted a SB that is .99 higher than Tomoki and now Nationals where he bested Tomoki by 1.92 points are, literally, the only things you can hang your hats to justify a sentimental desire to have him on the Olympic team. I realize it's a feel good story that may very well come true but if BOW means anything, it should mean something here and Max's BOW compared to Tomoki's just isn't there. We'll know what the selection committee does in a few hours, but I really hope they take into consideration that Tomoki and Andrew are the only two men who delivered at least one clean program this week and then look at their BOW when they make this decision.
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Woops my bad! Don't know who I was thinking of who didn't make the FS! But as you pointed out, Andrew did not do well at either Worlds that he competed at (and frankly I'd forgotten that he's been to TWO, not just last year). I would like to see how Maxim does on a bigger stage this time around. And I think that Tomoki earned a spot at the Games. Normally I'd say Jason did but he's seemed to hit a rut at the worst possible time!

ETA: I corrected my comment about Max at Worlds!
 
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Sasha'sSpins said:
Woops my bad! Don't know who I was thinking of who didn't make the FS! But as you pointed out, Andrew did not do well at either Worlds that he competed at (and frankly I'd forgotten that he's been to TWO, not just last year). I would like to see how Maxim does on a bigger stage this time around. And I think that Tomoki earned a spot at the Games. Normally I'd say Jason did but he's seemed to hit a rut at the worst possible time!
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I think there's certainly an argument that can be made for leaving Andrew off the team and that 22nd place at last year's Worlds will certainly be a factor as will Tomoki's 4CCs performance last year. Ultimately, for me, I would choose the two men who managed at least one clean program this week. Tomoki was 2nd to Ilia in the SP. Andrew was 2nd to Ilia in the FS. Max was 4th in both segments. Send Max to 4CCs and Worlds if you want to give him something for his troubles.
 
Karen-W said:
I think there's certainly an argument that can be made for leaving Andrew off the team and that 22nd place at last year's Worlds will certainly be a factor as will Tomoki's 4CCs performance last year. Ultimately, for me, I would choose the two men who managed at least one clean program this week. Tomoki was 2nd to Ilia in the SP. Andrew was 2nd to Ilia in the FS. Max was 4th in both segments. Send Max to 4CCs and Worlds if you want to give him something for his troubles.
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Fair enough although Max isn't just a sentimental favorite. Andrew was sent twice to the global stage and did not do well at all. I'd still like to see Tomoki, Max or both given a chance to sink or swim on the Olympic stage or at Worlds. As I said in my previous post, if Max isn't sent to the Olympics then I hope that he's sent to Worlds. Four Continents is ok but that's not the biggest stage after the Olympics - Worlds is and with spots for next year's Worlds on the line.
 
Private Citizen said:
Is a clean program part of the criteria? Doesn't seem like it should be, especially under COP. And I guess you're ignoring q's in terms of what constitutes a clean program?
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The selection committee is supposed to look at TES, PCS & Overall Scores from all competition segments, they're also supposed to look at the depth of the fields each skater competed in, scores & placements & scoring trends.

And yeah, I usually ignore q's because I think that's a bogus call that is prone to human error & manipulation.
 
Karen-W said:
I think there's certainly an argument that can be made for leaving Andrew off the team and that 22nd place at last year's Worlds will certainly be a factor as will Tomoki's 4CCs performance last year. Ultimately, for me, I would choose the two men who managed at least one clean program this week. Tomoki was 2nd to Ilia in the SP. Andrew was 2nd to Ilia in the FS. Max was 4th in both segments. Send Max to 4CCs and Worlds if you want to give him something for his troubles.
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That is really a dismissive, disrespectful and just plain horrible thing to say to give Max assignments for his troubles aka both his parents dying in a horrific plane crash. Time to back away from keyboard.
 
Skaterbob said:
That is really a dismissive, disrespectful and just plain horrible thing to say to give Max assignments for his troubles aka both his parents dying in a horrific plane crash. Time to back away from keyboard.
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Sigh. You know, perhaps you're the one who should step away since you're clearly over-emotional about Max and interpreting my comment to be horrible and disrespectful.
 
"To give him something for his troubles" is a bit :eek: wording. It makes it sounds like he had broken skates or something. I accept that you didn't mean anything nasty, but I think people are reacting to the understatement.

Naumov's tragic circumstances must be taken into account re: Body of Work. The tragic death of both his parents in a plane crash prevented him from going to 4CC, necessitated a forced coaching change, and almost certainly caused his season to get off to a slower start than it would have otherwise. The selection committee has to make a qualitative adjustment rather than doing an apples-to-apples comparison to Hiwatashi. I think he has done enough to earn the nod.
 
Skaterbob said:
No I'm not. You are off your rocker. I'm not emotional at all just disgusted with your post.
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We could go back & forth all day. You've been here long enough to be familiar with my often direct posting style. I'm sure you'll find some other reason to be offended and disgusted soon enough.
 
Private Citizen said:
"To give him something for his troubles" is a bit :eek: wording. It makes it sounds like he had broken skates or something. I accept that you didn't mean anything nasty, but I think people are reacting to the understatement.
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Fair enough. It was a rather colorful turn of phrase, which we know I love. And, no, I didn't mean anything nasty by it.

Naumov's tragic circumstances must be taken into account re: Body of Work. The tragic death of both his parents in a plane crash prevented him from going to 4CC, necessitated a forced coaching change, and almost certainly caused his season to get off to a slower start than it would have otherwise. The selection committee has to make a qualitative adjustment rather than doing an apples-to-apples comparison to Hiwatashi. I think he has done enough to earn the nod.
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Also fair, but I would ask what in past seasons would point to Max having a better season than the one he had even with the tragedy? It would be one thing if he was coming off of a 2024-25 fall season like, say, Torgashev and then his parents' deaths happened, but his results this season weren't appreciably different from any any other season. He has, routinely, had a poor to middling fall season & then one decent result at Nats for 5 seasons now. Say his parents hadn't died, what would have changed the way things went with his fall season? Say his parents hadn't died, would you think that his fall season & Nats result was enough? I mean this with the greatest & gentlest respect, but I'm not sure any of us except his most ardent fans would think that these skates at Nats were enough if his parents were alive.
 
I wish Tomoki had a stronger long program, personally. The song cover’s musical style is a bit strange to me, and I’m not sure what is the desired emotional reaction to get from it? I would have loved something more “Olympic” feeling. The song has a sense of grandiosity but not necessarily of lyricism/grace.
 
Karen-W said:
Fair enough. It was a rather colorful turn of phrase, which we know I love. And, no, I didn't mean anything nasty by it.


Also fair, but I would ask what in past seasons would point to Max having a better season than the one he had even with the tragedy? It would be one thing if he was coming off of a 2024-25 fall season like, say, Torgashev and then his parents' deaths happened, but his results this season weren't appreciably different from any any other season. He has, routinely, had a poor to middling fall season & then one decent result at Nats for 5 seasons now. Say his parents hadn't died, what would have changed the way things went with his fall season? Say his parents hadn't died, would you think that his fall season & Nats result was enough? I mean this with the greatest & gentlest respect, but I'm not sure any of us except his most ardent fans would think that these skates at Nats were enough if his parents were alive.
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I'm glad I am not making this decision. Nothing is clear cut except Ilia.
 
Tomoki's FS to me is pretty awful, and I am saying this as a fan of his who was hopeful for his Olympic chances. His programs are so hit or miss, and his short is much better. I have to say for me the choice is clear that the top 3 from Nationals should go, since the season had no clear distinction of results after Ilia. Jacob being so close to Max's score would give me pause, but I think Max is the more developed and worthy skater at this point.
 
I still haven't watched the Free Skating, but sending either the fifth or ninth-placed finisher in the overall competition to the Olympics would send an extremely poor message as to the value of Nationals. If I were on the selection committee I would vote to send the top three and hope that Torgashev and Naumov at least qualify for the Free Skating in Milan.
 
Karen-W said:
By the rules, he's not, really, though.

There are 4 ways men qualified into the Selection Pool - here's who was higher in each pathway -
Selection Pool Points - Torgy
2026 Nats - Torgy
Current Season WR - Hiwatashi

But when you look at other factors the committee considers -
SB - Hiwatashi
GP Highest - Hiwatashi
GP Avg - Hiwatashi
Challenger/Sr B Highest - Torgy
Challenger/Sr B Avg - let's not look at this one since Torgy only had one CS/Sr B so his 2nd score is 80% of his 1st score & that drags down the average
Head-to-Head Match-Ups - Torgy
Scoring Trend - Little harder to quantify, but Hiwatashi probably takes it because his score range was not only higher but smaller than Torgy.

Torgashev clearly went WAY up here at Nats but during the fall, his trend was downward -
Nebelhorn 237.11
GPdF 233.36
NHK 212.01

Hiwatashi really hit his mojo in September & October after a really disappointing Cranberry Cup performance -
Cranberry - 201.66
Kinoshita Group Cup - 236.71
Trialeti Trophy - 237.11
CoC - 245.71
SCI - 230.58

And then there's Naumov, whose only "win" over the other two is his SB from IceChallenge and the protocol from that event does not read like a 246.70 worthy score at all. And his scoring trend is appreciably lower than the other two -
Lombardia 223.43
GPdF 226.74
IceChallenge 246.70
Tallinn 223.04

My gut says the committee will probably just stick with the Nats results, but I think there's a reasonable argument to be made in favor of Hiwatashi and Torgashev over Naumov.
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How does Jacob stand up.
 
What last night really showed...is that Malinin should NOT do both segments of the Team event. And, given Torgashev's meltdowns before, I'd be wary of him doing the SP in the Team event. The free skate has a lot more room for him to do better eve with a fall.
 
barbk said:
What last night really showed...is that Malinin should NOT do both segments of the Team event. And, given Torgashev's meltdowns before, I'd be wary of him doing the SP in the Team event. The free skate has a lot more room for him to do better eve with a fall.
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Ilia has to do the short, because the loss is too great. The free at least is only a loss of a few points.
 
Evgeniafan said:
How does Jacob stand up.
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Jacob doesn't win any of those criteria points and he had the lowest score trend line out of the 4. I have a hard time even justifying the notion of a truly split assignment list with Jacob, like Max, getting assigned to 4CCs & Worlds while Torgy & Tomoki get the coveted Olympic spots.
 
Karen-W said:
We could go back & forth all day. You've been here long enough to be familiar with my often direct posting style. I'm sure you'll find some other reason to be offended and disgusted soon enough.
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As admins have been fielding complaints about your posts for several days now, and not just about Max, this is a polite request to try to frame your replies more generously and accept different opinions without casting aspersions on the posters.

That goes for everyone when we all have a stake in the outcomes and the next month will have plenty of drama.
 
Trouble with all this is the "3rd" spot. The US has no depth of field like Japan`s men. (In fact not equal to France or Italy.) If you take Jason out our remaining men are middling or if young, promising. We in the US need to get out of the "grab-third" mentality. Put the effort into creating stronger competitors.
 
Theatregirl1122 said:
The idea that Jason threw the competition is one of the more outrageous things I’ve ever seen posted.

Sometimes people have bad days. Sometimes there’s an explanation, and sometimes there isn’t. But the explanation definitely is not that an elite athlete and Olympian just decided not to win today because they wanted someone else to get it.
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Yeah Jason has too much respect for this sport to do that kind of nonsense.
 
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