U.S. Men 2025-26 Discussion - Quad God and the Mere Mortals

I didn't mean to cause controversy - it was poorly worded. What I meant was Jason looked very affected by what had occurred with Max just before his skate and it may have affected his skating.
 
ChillSkate said:
I didn't mean to cause controversy - it was poorly worded. What I meant was Jason looked very affected by what had occurred with Max just before his skate and it may have affected his skating.
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I thought Jason looked incredibly nervous as he took his starting position. I suppose he might had been a little overwhelmed with emotion, but it really looked like an unusual case of nerves to me.

I heard someone suggest he might be ill, but without hearing from him then that's just speculation. For someone like Jason who is expected to be a bit of a spokesperson, I have to imagine he's thrust in front of so many groups of people before such a big competition like this that it ends up being just a big cloud of viruses he needs to dodge.
 
Karen-W said:
I'm sorry but there is very little argument for Naumov over either Torgashev or Hiwatashi when you really break down the various criteria. At least Torgashev & Hiwatashi delivered one clean program at Nats this year. Max couldn't even manage that. Max's scoring trend line over the course of the season is also lower than both Torgashev & Hiwatashi with the exception of the egregiously inflated scores for both him & Sanchez at IceChallenge. He isn't in the current season WR Top 24, he isn't in the Selection Pool Calculation Top 5. He literally showed up at Nats and had two semi-decent skates. The difference tonight was Tomoki's 3a+rep. Had he been able to get even a 2t off on the back end of that 3a, he'd have won the bronze.
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I think that part of what's at issue here is a difference in understanding of how the criteria should be used. Karen, it seems like you feel like the person with the strongest body of work should be taken with nations given equal weight to all other criteria. No one is arguing that Tomoki doesn't have a stronger body of work.

The issue is that a lot of people think that nationals is by far the most important criteria and should only be overruled by body of work if that body of work is compellingly strong. This seems more in line with what has been done in the past. So when people are arguing that Tomoki's body of work isn't that impressive, they're not arguing Max's is stronger. It's clear it's not. We're arguing that Tomoki's isn't strong enough to overrule nationals.

I think this argument is coming from a fundamental disagreement in the way the criteria should be applied, and the USFSA selection documents allow them to go either way.
 
Theatregirl1122 said:
I think that part of what's at issue here is a difference in understanding of how the criteria should be used. Karen, it seems like you feel like the person with the strongest body of work should be taken with nations given equal weight to all other criteria. No one is arguing that Tomoki doesn't have a stronger body of work.

The issue is that a lot of people think that nationals is by far the most important criteria and should only be overruled by body of work if that body of work is compellingly strong. This seems more in line with what has been done in the past. So when people are arguing that Tomoki's body of work isn't that impressive, they're not arguing Max's is stronger. It's clear it's not. We're arguing that Tomoki's isn't strong enough to overrule nationals.

I think this argument is coming from a fundamental disagreement in the way the criteria should be applied, and the USFSA selection documents allow them to go either way.
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Let's be honest all of the US Men not named Ilia have been mediocre so just go with the top 3 we are splitting hairs on who has had the better year it's not one of them one a GP gold medal or made the GPF.
 
Capt. DeSoto said:
I heard someone suggest he might be ill, but without hearing from him then that's just speculation. For someone like Jason who is expected to be a bit of a spokesperson, I have to imagine he's thrust in front of so many groups of people before such a big competition like this that it ends up being just a big cloud of viruses he needs to dodge.
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In the post-skate interview with Golden Skate, Jason said he didn't really know what had happened, but his legs just weren't there. He said he felt good and training had been going well. Unfortunately it just sounds like one of those fluke things.
 
Karen-W said:
Jacob doesn't win any of those criteria points and he had the lowest score trend line out of the 4. I have a hard time even justifying the notion of a truly split assignment list with Jacob, like Max, getting assigned to 4CCs & Worlds while Torgy & Tomoki get the coveted Olympic spots.
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I just want Jacob to get 4CC. Why can't he?
 
Over on skating scores, the mean scores internationally this season are -

#9 - Jason Brown 247
#22-Tomoki Hiwatashi 230
#24-Andrew Torgashev 228
#30- Maxim Naumov 224 - I don't think this includes Ice Challenge (?)

Nothing to take from here that would help the USFSA make the decision which will be in a few hours (?), because the rankings are in exact opposite order of how they skated at Nationals, but here are the trends -

Jason's 3A has been getting worse over the course of the season with only speculation that it is age and fatigue

Of the remaining 3, Tomoki is more likely to hit 2 Quads, the most consistent, but has less scoring potential than Andrew.

Andrew has the scoring potential but only has had one on-fire skate in the past year.

Max has the heart and a 4S, and that score from Ice Challenge, but will the USFSA use other logic to select the team?

NO.FREAKIN.CLUE
 
@Theatregirl1122 - I think you're partially correct in there being a fundamental difference in what most FSUers think should carry the most weight BOW or the old Nats results method, but I also think a lot of personal feelings about different skaters (positive & negative) are obscuring people's views on the matter.

For instance - a lot of people are more than willing to use Torgashev's epic failures at his 2 Worlds' appearances as a justification to keep him off the team. Why is that? I'd posit that it has more to do with their negative opinion of his social media meltdown last month & not caring for his personal politics than it does with dispassionately analyzing his actual BOW over the past year from Nats 2025 to now, which is what the criteria states is the time period under consideration.

The same can be said for Max, only in reverse. We SHOULD go with Nats results for him rather than put too much weight on his BOW, which doesn't really support naming him to the team. Why? Because of his personal tragedy and everything he's gone through in the past year. Which isn't a part of the criteria at all.

We can make a case for each of the three men, but, the USFS has shown over the past 3 Olympic cycles a real willingness to select a team from outside the Nats results. I don't know that any of these men have as compelling of an argument to depart from the Nats results, but I'm of the view that they should otherwise this whole BOW consideration pathway the USFS has been on since 2014 doesn't amount to the paper its printed on. Either it matters, even when the guys aren't necessarily distinguishing themselves internationally or the USFS should just go back to Nats results alone determine the team.
 
Karen-W said:
@Theatregirl1122 - I think you're partially correct in there being a fundamental difference in what most FSUers think should carry the most weight BOW or the old Nats results method, but I also think a lot of personal feelings about different skaters (positive & negative) are obscuring people's views on the matter.

For instance - a lot of people are more than willing to use Torgashev's epic failures at his 2 Worlds' appearances as a justification to keep him off the team. Why is that? I'd posit that it has more to do with their negative opinion of his social media meltdown last month & not caring for his personal politics than it does with dispassionately analyzing his actual BOW over the past year from Nats 2025 to now, which is what the criteria states is the time period under consideration.

The same can be said for Max, only in reverse. We SHOULD go with Nats results for him rather than put too much weight on his BOW, which doesn't really support naming him to the team. Why? Because of his personal tragedy and everything he's gone through in the past year. Which isn't a part of the criteria at all.

We can make a case for each of the three men, but, the USFS has shown over the past 3 Olympic cycles a real willingness to select a team from outside the Nats results. I don't know that any of these men have as compelling of an argument to depart from the Nats results, but I'm of the view that they should otherwise this whole BOW consideration pathway the USFS has been on since 2014 doesn't amount to the paper its printed on. Either it matters, even when the guys aren't necessarily distinguishing themselves internationally or the USFS should just go back to Nats results alone determine the team.
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To be fair what we said about Torgy is a bit like what we said about Jeremy back when he was competing.
Or even Miner.
Heck we didn’t even forgive Evan Bates for ditching Emily and someone still mentioned that this last week.

We just go on and on over the same thing for years, social media mishap or not.
But most of us are good with Torgy’s spot at the Olympics.
 
The ostensible
Karen-W said:
We can make a case for each of the three men, but, the USFS has shown over the past 3 Olympic cycles a real willingness to select a team from outside the Nats results. I don't know that any of these men have as compelling of an argument to depart from the Nats results, but I'm of the view that they should otherwise this whole BOW consideration pathway the USFS has been on since 2014 doesn't amount to the paper its printed on. Either it matters, even when the guys aren't necessarily distinguishing themselves internationally or the USFS should just go back to Nats results alone determine the team.
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The ostensible reasons for the "body of work" criteria are to avoid (1) having a Tonya Harding situation with an unsavory skater automatically earning a spot at the Olympics and (2) enabling the IOC to retain revenue from the broadcasting rights. I don't think that USFS has ever said in so many words that using pre-Nationals results enables it to make better selections, though, of course, many argue that it does.

I can quite see why USFS would have gone for, say, Liu over Tennell if the former had finished fourth at Nationals, but there is no Big Three or even a Big Two among the men this year, only Quad God and the Mere Mortals (which is a great name for a band, by the way.
 
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Private Citizen said:
Naumov's tragic circumstances must be taken into account re: Body of Work. The tragic death of both his parents in a plane crash prevented him from going to 4CC, necessitated a forced coaching change, and almost certainly caused his season to get off to a slower start than it would have otherwise. The selection committee has to make a qualitative adjustment rather than doing an apples-to-apples comparison to Hiwatashi. I think he has done enough to earn the nod.
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I think it's fair to take it into account at the beginning of this season, especially since the rules say to look at the trajectory. At some point, his skating this season does have to be taken into account. To be honest, he and Jacob both were overscored at Graz where the scores were generous and their rotations problems weren't called. Max hasn't had a great skate this season. IMO, Max's skating this week was fairly sloppy, and it wasn't a huge improvement. (Even he seemed to think his skate wasn't great and responded to it by saying that he tried his best.) Sure, his scores went up, but so did everybody's because this is Nationals. I think the scoring for Max was a bit overly generous. I don't know how he got +3 GOE for that messy spin. And given how sloppy the skate was, including the ending, I would not have given him higher PCS than Jacob, who skated with such ease last night.

I think that's what doesn't sit well with me. Jacob lost to Max by less than one tenth of a point. Tomoki lost to Max by less than two points. If we're really only going to look at Nationals for Max and if we're going to look at the skating for the others over the season and this week, it just doesn't feel right. Again, I was hoping to see Max earn a spot on the team because I like his skating the most out of these guys, but I'm not really sure that he really did earn it.

ETA: The rules explicitly say that they are not supposed to make the decision based on one competition.
 
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Karen-W said:
No. The team is named at the conclusion of Nationals.
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Having seen how close the points are between third and fifth I can now see your point about Tomoki having a shot at the O team.

Basically third to fifth are tied in points pretty much
 
So, announcement, skate, announcement, skate...

They're really milking this. So, are they announcing Ilia next so they can really stretch that taffy for the big question of the third assignment?
 
Karen-W said:
For instance - a lot of people are more than willing to use Torgashev's epic failures at his 2 Worlds' appearances as a justification to keep him off the team. Why is that? I'd posit that it has more to do with their negative opinion of his social media meltdown last month & not caring for his personal politics than it does with dispassionately analyzing his actual BOW over the past year from Nats 2025 to now, which is what the criteria states is the time period under consideration.
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I think that emotion can - consciously or not - affect people's judgments (including people who are judges). However, people were saying that about Torgy before his social media comments, and I don't think there are many people saying that Torgy shouldn't be on the team. I really wanted Max to earn a spot over Torgy, but I'll be the first to admit that he didn't.

But, for reasons that have nothing to do with Torgy's personality and character, I think it would be very risky to have him compete in the team event. Just because you don't like someone doesn't mean you have to totally ignore their competitive flaws, either.
 
Capt. DeSoto said:
So, announcement, skate, announcement, skate...

They're really milking this. So, are they announcing Ilia next so they can really stretch that taffy for the big question of the third assignment?
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No clue. There's a thread in the Kiss 'n Cry US Nats sub-forum for this gala, btw. Join us for the real-time snark about the show there! :)
 
Allskate said:
I think that emotion can - consciously or not - affect people's judgments (including people who are judges). However, people were saying that about Torgy before his social media comments, and I don't think there are many people saying that Torgy shouldn't be on the team. I really wanted Max to earn a spot over Torgy, but I'll be the first to admit that he didn't.

But, for reasons that have nothing to do with Torgy's personality and character, I think it would be very risky to have him compete in the team event. Just because you don't like someone doesn't mean you have to totally ignore their competitive flaws, either.
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Sadly, outside of FSU there is a very vocal, sustained belief that Torgy shouldn't be on the team because of the social media comments, etc. FSU is a very sheltered corner of the FS 'net, I've come to realize.
 
Karen-W said:
Sadly, outside of FSU there is a very vocal, sustained belief that Torgy shouldn't be on the team because of the social media comments, etc. FSU is a very sheltered corner of the FS 'net, I've come to realize.
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It wasn't pretty, a bit unsportsmanlike. It read to me like a late-night self-doubt twitter spiral after having a couple drinks too many out at dinner. I think he walked right up to the line, but didn't cross it. He criticized sweetheart scoring, not so much the sweetheart (as many took it).
 
Karen-W said:
Sadly, outside of FSU there is a very vocal, sustained belief that Torgy shouldn't be on the team because of the social media comments, etc.
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Well, those people aren't part of the debate here. You seem to be chastising people here, saying that there is a "fundamental difference in what most FSUers think should carry the most weight" and making your comment about Torgy.

I think emotion often enters into opinions on Olympic team selection and people often don't even want to look at what the rules are or want to find a way to rationalize their choices. Sure, that's true for a lot of people with Max, but I also think that your own history shows that you are not exempt from that.
 
Karen-W said:
For instance - a lot of people are more than willing to use Torgashev's epic failures at his 2 Worlds' appearances as a justification to keep him off the team. Why is that? I'd posit that it has more to do with their negative opinion of his social media meltdown last month & not caring for his personal politics than it does with dispassionately analyzing his actual BOW over the past year from Nats 2025 to now, which is what the criteria states is the time period under consideration.
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I was (and continue to be) ignorant of his social media, meltdown or otherwise. I still don't like that he bombed his last two trips to Worlds and would have cost the US a third spot had Brown not come through. He gets a lot of side-eye from me for that. OTOH, none of the men in serious contention have been models of consistency, so naming him is not some kind of injustice. They all have a reasonably erratic BOW.
 
There's also a difference between saying that Torgashev shouldn't make the team because of his social media comments and hoping that he he'd have a Worlds-like performance and wouldn't make the team.
 
ha I'm not part of the Kiss and Cry because of the expense of it; I'll happily comment in the normal part of the forum from now till the end of the season.
 
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