U.S. Men 2025-26 Discussion - Quad God and the Mere Mortals

[Karen-W]

I can't even feel like Brown would perform well in the individual Men's event at this point - not especially with that FS tonight. I could see an argument that he deserves the spot after helping carry the US men this quad but he's already been to two Olympics and his jumps have shown clear deterioration since last spring. I'm not sure there's anything particularly compelling about giving him a third Olympic berth. NBC can and will add him to their social media team for Milano-Cortina and he'll be all over the venues, soaking it up and being Team USA's biggest cheerleader for any sport.

 

[kwanfan1818]

It's because, heading into Nationals, he had a stronger case than others under the rules.

By the rules, Torgashev received no bonus points from 2025 Worlds, but his total points > Hiwatashi's, which reflects BOW.

Hiwatashi's result at 2025 4C's wasn't that much, if at all, better than Torgashev's at Worlds, given the relative fields. The expecations for Torgashev were higher.

Hiwatashi is a sentimental favorite of mine, and Torgashev isn't. But by the rules, he's stronger than Hiwatashi.

 

[Rukia]

Jacob Sanchez was a delight and i'm thrilled with his freedom medal

 

[Allskate]

Hiwatashi is a sentimental favorite of mine, and Torgashev isn't. But his points for the year based on BOW are higher than Hiwatashi's.

First, I am not arguing that Torgy should not be on the team. It's the third member that is more in question, IMO.

Second, the points are relevant to getting into the selection pool, but the criteria for actual selection to the team are different. It's not about the points. The committee is supposed to look at not only placements at competitions, but also scores, consistency, the competitiveness of the field in the event, protocols, and trajectory. Coming into Nationals, I think Tomoki had a better argument than Max, Jacob, and probably Torgy, and that was one of the reasons why there was buzz about it him. But, IMO, his advantage was not so strong that Nationals couldn't change things. Given that Jacob, Max, and Tomoki finished within two points of each other and considering how they actually skated, it's debateable how much Nationals really changed things. I think that they will choose Max (whose skating I have always preferred and who I was hoping would earn a spot with a spectacular skate), but I will feel bad for Tomoki and I won't be entirely comfortable with the decision and will question the reasons for the decision.

 

[Karen-W]

By the rules, Torgashev received no bonus points from 2025 Worlds, but his total points > Hiwatashi's, which reflects BOW.

Hiwatashi's result at 2025 4C's wasn't that much, if at all, better than Torgashev's at Worlds, given the relative fields. The expecations for Torgashev were higher.

Hiwatashi is a sentimental favorite of mine, and Torgashev isn't. But by the rules, he's stronger than Hiwatashi.

By the rules, he's not, really, though.

There are 4 ways men qualified into the Selection Pool - here's who was higher in each pathway -
Selection Pool Points - Torgy
2026 Nats - Torgy
Current Season WR - Hiwatashi

But when you look at other factors the committee considers -
SB - Hiwatashi
GP Highest - Hiwatashi
GP Avg - Hiwatashi
Challenger/Sr B Highest - Torgy
Challenger/Sr B Avg - let's not look at this one since Torgy only had one CS/Sr B so his 2nd score is 80% of his 1st score & that drags down the average
Head-to-Head Match-Ups - Torgy
Scoring Trend - Little harder to quantify, but Hiwatashi probably takes it because his score range was not only higher but smaller than Torgy.

Torgashev clearly went WAY up here at Nats but during the fall, his trend was downward -
Nebelhorn 237.11
GPdF 233.36
NHK 212.01

Hiwatashi really hit his mojo in September & October after a really disappointing Cranberry Cup performance -
Cranberry - 201.66
Kinoshita Group Cup - 236.71
Trialeti Trophy - 237.11
CoC - 245.71
SCI - 230.58

And then there's Naumov, whose only "win" over the other two is his SB from IceChallenge and the protocol from that event does not read like a 246.70 worthy score at all. And his scoring trend is appreciably lower than the other two -
Lombardia 223.43
GPdF 226.74
IceChallenge 246.70
Tallinn 223.04

My gut says the committee will probably just stick with the Nats results, but I think there's a reasonable argument to be made in favor of Hiwatashi and Torgashev over Naumov.

 

[livetoskate]

My fancam of the men's medal ceremony. The lady next to me and another spectator said Ilia had a bad fall during practice so they were concerned he'd hurt himself or might even withdraw. I was holding my breath during his free and pleasantly surprised he still did quads. Sad for Jason & Tomoki, but thrilled for the medalists.

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[ChillSkate]

I just re-watched the Men's Free Skate - does anyone else think Jason threw this? Maybe not even consciously - but maybe subconsciously - that he saw Max's skate, saw Max's placement, knows Max's story, and couldn't bring himself to be the one who kept Max from the Olympics team.

Jason had a tortured look on his face when he started the Free Skate.

Sure, Jason has struggled with his Triple Axel all year but I've never seen him come close to having a skate where he couldn't land almost any jumps.

I'm not even a big Jason fan, but I just can't shake the feeling that he didn't want to be the one to keep Max from the Olympics team.

I can't see any world where Jason is named to the Olympic team.

 

[Bulletsdad]

I don't see how Jason gets named after his performance tonight. One of the factors for consideration is trajectory, and his trajectory has unfortunately been downward. I wish the results had been different, but I'd be shocked if he's named to the team.

What would not shock me is if Torgashev is left off, ala Ross Miner. He's repeatedly blown it internationally when it mattered. Consider it the curse of the surprise silver medalist.

Torgashev has blown it in the past, but

 

[tangerine dream]

What would not shock me is if Torgashev is left off, ala Ross Miner. He's repeatedly blown it internationally when it mattered. Consider it the curse of the surprise silver medalist.

I don't see that happening. Miner was left off in favor of someone with a strong international record, who medaled at both GP events in the fall, made the GPF, and had been in the top ten at worlds multiple times. None of the guys below Torg have anything near that strong a claim.

 

[Karen-W]

I made a chart showing the scoring trend of Torgashev, Hiwatashi, Naumov & Sanchez and posted it to my X acct just now, if anyone is curious to see how utterly chaotic it's going to be for the Men's Selection Committee to make a decision.

https://twitter.com/x/status/2010227226684633431

 

[BittyBug]

I don't see that happening. Miner was left off in favor of someone with a strong international record, who medaled at both GP events in the fall, made the GPF, and had been in the top ten at worlds multiple times. None of the guys below Torg have anything near that strong a claim.

But the argument against Miner was that he had failed to deliver in his two times at Worlds, and biffed his GPs. Sound familiar?

 

[tangerine dream]

But the argument against Miner was that he had failed to deliver in his two times at Worlds, and biffed his GPs. Sound familiar?

Sure. But I also think the person they're bumping someone for matters and that person was much stronger in 2018 than this year. Adam had a great fall season and was a very reliable skater. So much so that USFS used him in the team event and he had a great skate there.

Miner wasn't only left off the team because he failed to deliver internationally. The second component to that decision was that there was a skater that finished a couple spots below him that had a great track record and significantly higher scoring potential.

 

[misskarne]

I just re-watched the Men's Free Skate - does anyone else think Jason threw this? Maybe not even consciously - but maybe subconsciously - that he saw Max's skate, saw Max's placement, knows Max's story, and couldn't bring himself to be the one who kept Max from the Olympics team.

Jason had a tortured look on his face when he started the Free Skate.

Sure, Jason has struggled with his Triple Axel all year but I've never seen him come close to having a skate where he couldn't land almost any jumps.

I'm not even a big Jason fan, but I just can't shake the feeling that he didn't want to be the one to keep Max from the Olympics team.

I can't see any world where Jason is named to the Olympic team.

There's not a snowball's chance in hell Jason threw that skate. He continued four years longer than planned to make the Olympics. He wasn't going to throw it at the last second for anybody.

 

[ChillSkate]

There's not a snowball's chance in hell Jason threw that skate. He continued four years longer than planned to make the Olympics. He wasn't going to throw it at the last second for anybody.

What's the explanation for his skate then? Injury? He looked fine in the short program and I didn't hear anything about injuries at practices. Regular old nerves? He's faced much bigger situations than a US Nationals where he was sitting in second for 3 Olympic spots with a judging group and selection committee that adores him.

My perspective is limited since I wasn't in the arena, but from what I could see on TV, Jason was looking at the jumbotron where Max was holding up pictures of his parents immediately before his skate and then had a devastated look on his face when he started his program. The waltz jump and the 2 doubles looked intentional.

Either Jason threw it because he would rather see Max go to the Olympics, he is injured, or he has become unreliable / unable to execute basic technical content. In any of these cases, I don't see how he could be sent to the Olympics.

 

[tangerine dream]

There's not a snowball's chance in hell Jason threw that skate. He continued four years longer than planned to make the Olympics. He wasn't going to throw it at the last second for anybody.

Yeah I can't see any way that was what happened. For one thing, he had no idea Tomoki would drop so far. At the point he skated it was more likely that Tomoki would make the team than Max. Also, it's just not in character for an elite athlete. I'm sure he wanted to give a good performance for the audience tonight and see how he stacked up against the field.

 

[misskarne]

What's the explanation for his skate then? Injury? He looked fine in the short program and I didn't hear anything about injuries at practices. Regular old nerves? He's faced much bigger situations than a US Nationals where he was sitting in second for 3 Olympic spots with a judging group and selection committee that adores him.

My perspective is limited since I wasn't in the arena, but from what I could see on TV, Jason was looking at the jumbotron where Max was holding up pictures of his parents immediately before his skate and then had a devastated look on his face when he started his program. The waltz jump and the 2 doubles looked intentional.

Either Jason threw it because he would rather see Max go to the Olympics, he is injured, or he has become unreliable / unable to execute basic technical content. In any of these cases, I don't see how he could be sent to the Olympics.

I don't know. Maybe he's sick. Maybe his body reminded him it's 31 now and not 19. Maybe the exhaustion of spending the last four years constantly saving the US men's asses and still being constantly criticised and carped on as not being good enough hit him in that moment. No-one will know unless Jason tells us.

But this I can say with confidence: he would not have thrown that skate.

 

[Rukia]

Jason's axle has been questionable all season lol what a weird thing to say

 

[Skaterbob]

My perspective is limited since I wasn't in the arena, but from what I could see on TV, Jason was looking at the jumbotron where Max was holding up pictures of his parents immediately before his skate and then had a devastated look on his face when he started his program. The waltz jump and the 2 doubles looked intentional.

I thought the exact same thing but not as intentional like he threw but that he was very affected by what he saw before skating.

 

[Allskate]

I'm not sure there's anything particularly compelling about giving him a third Olympic berth. NBC can and will add him to their social media team for Milano-Cortina and he'll be all over the venues, soaking it up and being Team USA's biggest cheerleader for any sport.

I don't think there's a compelling argument for putting Jason on the team either, but I don't think he's going to be soaking anything up. Your tone wrt to Jason makes you come across as a sore winner. We know you detest Jason, but can't you just privately bask in your glee about his nightmare skate tonight?

 

[ChillSkate]

Yeah I can't see any way that was what happened. For one thing, he had no idea Tomoki would drop so far. At the point he skated it was more likely that Tomoki would make the team than Max. Also, it's just not in character for an elite athlete. I'm sure he wanted to give a good performance for the audience tonight and see how he stacked up against the field.

Yeah that's true about Tomoki. Again, I'm not a huge Jason fan so I'm not trying to turn him into a martyr. The Men's event was so shocking, I'm just trying to process it. Maybe the energy in the building after Max just made it hard for Jason to be at his best.

Tomoki and Ilia weren't really on fire either and I did see some comments in the PBP about the energy in the building really shifting during the event.

I thought I was prepared for whatever drama this Men's event would produce, but this was really something incredible.

 

[Jammers]

What's the explanation for his skate then? Injury? He looked fine in the short program and I didn't hear anything about injuries at practices. Regular old nerves? He's faced much bigger situations than a US Nationals where he was sitting in second for 3 Olympic spots with a judging group and selection committee that adores him.

My perspective is limited since I wasn't in the arena, but from what I could see on TV, Jason was looking at the jumbotron where Max was holding up pictures of his parents immediately before his skate and then had a devastated look on his face when he started his program. The waltz jump and the 2 doubles looked intentional.

Either Jason threw it because he would rather see Max go to the Olympics, he is injured, or he has become unreliable / unable to execute basic technical content. In any of these cases, I don't see how he could be sent to the Olympics.

It's called old age. It can hit fast when you age as a athlete.

 

[Karen-W]

I don't think there's a compelling argument for putting Jason on the team either, but I don't think he's going to be soaking anything up. Your tone wrt to Jason makes you come across as a sore winner. We know you detest Jason, but can't you just privately bask in your glee about his nightmare skate tonight?

Sorry you misread the tone of my post. I think he'd be a huge asset to NBC's Olympic team and he'd be a lot of fun, hyping up the fans & athletes in all the different sports at the Olympics and I think he'd love being in that role. Certainly not as much as competing, obviously, but he's always been such a huge Team USA cheerleader over the years and given everyone such a boost at events like WTT every other year.

 

[Debbie S]

Elite athletes do not "throw" competitions, especially when there is an Oly berth on the line. As for why Jason melted down...could be an undisclosed (to the public) injury, could be nerves/mental lapse....who knows. As a Jason fan who was so excited to see him in Milan, I was devastated watching him tonight. But based on tonight's results and his trajectory, I think it's only fair to name Max to the team.

Honestly, Torg is the one I feel most questionable about, given his history of great skates at Nats and bombing at Worlds, but with his ranking among the selection pool and his finish tonight, you can't argue putting him on the team.

 

[kwanfan1818]

My gut says the committee will probably just stick with the Nats results, but I think there's a reasonable argument to be made in favor of Hiwatashi and Torgashev over Naumov.

The argument wasn't about Naumov vs. Hiwatashi, but Torgashev vs. Hiwatashi, starting with the assertion that Torgashev has blown it internationally when it mattered. I think they'll go with Naumov over Hiwatashi regardless of the trends or less than two points separating Naumov and Hiwatashi at Nationals, vs. the 18-20 point lead that Torgashev had over both of them. But maybe they'll surprise me and send Naumov and Hiwatashi.

Blowing it internationally isn't a criteria when comparing him to Naumov or Hiwatashi, whose championship results (4C's) were similar to Torgashev's when the fields were compared, and, of course, Naumov had none. It could be a criteria for not assigning him to the TE, and toss the TE FS to the last man, who's never been in the position at all, and hope for the best.

I don't think it was a matter of a "surprise" silver medalist a la Miner, either. This is Torgashev's third year on the podium in three years with two silvers; Miner had success the first three years of the Sochi cycle and then placed 7th when it counted for Olympic qualification. Miner's silver in 2018 was a surprise after four 5th-7th place finishes in a row, but it was less than a point over 3rd place Zhou and a little over six points higher than Rippon's 4th.

Malinin's silver in 2022 only a surprise by how dominant his performance was, but while he had a tremendous upside, which he showed at Nationals, he'd been inconsistent earlier, and while the US had three Men, with a positive Covid test a deal-breaker, USFS needed three Men they could count on for the TE FS. He didn't have a track record. If Covid had been a factor for Sochi, USFS may have chosen Nagasu instead of Edmunds. Brown also got the benefit of the newbie doubt when he was selected for the Sochi team, but, before the event, it was clear that Russia and Canada were going to be above the US in the newly formed team event, and who skated the FS wouldn't have mattered much. Kori Ade said that USFS only would consider Brown for the Olympics, because they didn't know if they could trust him to earn three spots for 2015 Worlds -- I guess they expected her to protest? -- to which she replied (paraphrase) "Duh." Abbott rebounded from a weak Olympics, and he and Aaron earned the third spot back at 2014 Worlds.

 

[Karen-W]

The argument wasn't about Naumov vs. Hiwatashi, but Torgashev vs. Hiwatashi, starting with the assertion that Torgashev has blown it internationally when it mattered. I think they'll go with Naumov over Hiwatashi regardless of the trends or less than two points separating Naumov and Hiwatashi at Nationals, vs. the 18-20 point lead that Torgashev had over both of them. But maybe they'll surprise me and send Naumov and Hiwatashi.

Blowing it internationally isn't a criteria when comparing him to Naumov or Hiwatashi, whose championship results (4C's) were similar to Torgashev's when the fields were compared, and, of course, Naumov had none. It could be a criteria for not assigning him to the TE, and toss the TE FS to the last man, who's never been in the position at all, and hope for the best.

I'm sorry but there is very little argument for Naumov over either Torgashev or Hiwatashi when you really break down the various criteria. At least Torgashev & Hiwatashi delivered one clean program at Nats this year. Max couldn't even manage that. Max's scoring trend line over the course of the season is also lower than both Torgashev & Hiwatashi with the exception of the egregiously inflated scores for both him & Sanchez at IceChallenge. He isn't in the current season WR Top 24, he isn't in the Selection Pool Calculation Top 5. He literally showed up at Nats and had two semi-decent skates. The difference tonight was Tomoki's 3a+rep. Had he been able to get even a 2t off on the back end of that 3a, he'd have won the bronze.

 

[Allskate]

Jason's axle has been questionable all season lol what a weird thing to say

It is a weird thing to say. Jason's axel has been a problem this season. (Actually, a lot of the American men have been having triple axel problems this season.) But most of the other problems have not been there. You don't pop jumps because of old age. Max's skate was decent, though not great, but he did have the crowd behind him. I don't know if Jason realized that Max was getting some scores that were a bit generous, but I think Jason would have been more concerned about Tomoki and all the rumors/buzz around Tomoki and criticism of Jason. Also, I think this must have been an incredibly emotional day for him anyway given that it was his final Nationals performance after a long career. Plus, Tracy said before Skate America that she doesn't like Jason skating in the U.S. because it saps too much of his energy. I had been concerned that the emotion and axel problems would get the better of him, but nothing like this.

I feel really bad for Jason, and I think it's a shame that people want to take potshots at him. It's more of a reflection on them than it is on Jason.

 

[kwanfan1818]

I'm sorry but there is very little argument for Naumov over either Torgashev or Hiwatashi when you really break down the various criteria.

I'm not arguing for Naumov, but I don't think he'll be left off the team.

 

[Theatregirl1122]

The idea that Jason threw the competition is one of the more outrageous things I’ve ever seen posted.

Sometimes people have bad days. Sometimes there’s an explanation, and sometimes there isn’t. But the explanation definitely is not that an elite athlete and Olympian just decided not to win today because they wanted someone else to get it.

 

[Rukia]

literally whomst has not had a tragique skate like most of this field does this as a regular occurence

it's just unfortunate for Jason that is was when he needed to be particularly strong. I feel bad for him, but it's just skating sometimes.

 

[Karen-W]

Agree with everyone else who don't believe Jason threw that FS for one second. That is NOT the nature of any elite athlete, not especially someone who has been to two Olympics.