U.S. Men 2018-19 season (cont.) - news & updates

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Can y'all believe that Team USA leads in BOTH mens and ladies after the SP at 4CC??

And the ones who have won the SP aren't even the USA National Champions....

Now can I get an Amen in here??!!!??!!!!

 

[Karen-W]

Can y'all believe that Team USA leads in BOTH mens and ladies after the SP at 4CC??

And the ones who have won the SP aren't even the USA National Champions....

Now can I get an Amen in here??!!!??!!!!

Sure, but they are the top-ranked US skaters here. All in all, I'm feeling good about the US singles program at the moment. I think our ladies can compete with the top ladies in the world when they skate clean. And I'm thrilled that Vincent's quads were called clean - it's nice to have another US man who could wind up on the podium.

 

[toddlj]

Sure, but they are the top-ranked US skaters here. All in all, I'm feeling good about the US singles program at the moment. I think our ladies can compete with the top ladies in the world when they skate clean. And I'm thrilled that Vincent's quads were called clean - it's nice to have another US man who could wind up on the podium.

Yes! I think he's capable of clean quads and he such a thoughtful and hard-working kid. I have faith in his future.

 

[aftershocks]

Can y'all believe that Team USA leads in BOTH mens and ladies after the SP at 4CC??

It's nice to see some of Vincent Zhou's hard work paying off. But I think his landings were rather close and a bit shaky with ice flying. IOW, not bam bad a$$ landings. I can see Vincent was trying hard to not be under-rotated, but the 3-axel appeared slightly under-rotated to me on the replay. Plus, Vincent's aesthetics are not better than Junhwan Cha's. The judges have been keeping Cha down a bit this season, despite the fact that he's been skating brilliantly all season. Finally, Cha gets a season's best score, only to be beaten by around 3pts by someone whose been getting UR calls all season and actually didn't skate better than him?

The scoring was all over the place, and part of it is obviously political scoring. Nathan and Hanyu aren't there, and the event is taking place in the U.S., so I think that helped Zhou's score. At another venue, calls might have went against Zhou and Keegan, and Jason might have been even more harshly judged. Unfortunately, Jason faltered on one of his money jumps that he absolutely needs. The judges apparently didn't give him much leeway because he doesn't have a quad. But Jason should have received closer to 46 points on PCS, not 44, because everything else he did was spot-on and gorgeous. If he hadn't faltered, with the other messy performances ahead of him, Jason might have landed in 3rd.

Tech score for Shoma should have been much lower IMO because Shoma had two messy mistakes on two jumping passes. Yet, the judges didn't take down his tech score, while they did take down Jason's about 2 pts. I understand why Keegan is put in front of Jason on tech, because of his quad-double combo, but I think Keegan's jump landings were shaky, and his 3-axel appeared slightly under-rotated on the replay. Plus, Jason has better aesthetics. Meanwhile, Boyang has poor aesthetics and he messed up on his first jumping pass. He was given too many points. I'd have: Cha in first 99+; Zhou second 96; Boyang third 89; Shoma fourth 88; Keegan and Jason in a dead heat at 87+ with Keegan barely ahead by percentage fractions only.

Most likely Shoma will pull it out in the fp because the judges tend to give him gifts, even with errors. We'll see, as fs scoring is always a crapshoot. I truly wish coaches would concentrate on helping skaters master blade skills. Maybe then proper technique on the jumps might come more easily! The messy sloppiness and off-balance skating hurts my eyes.

It's shameful that more isn't being done to address the obvious need for skaters to learn how to skate and to master edge control. As retired skater, Scott Dyer recently said, "It's important to understand [and manage] transfer of weight and center of gravity, [while knowing] where you are on the blade." A number of Japanese skaters exhibit these talents, especially the ladies. But so many skaters throughout the sport do not. Dyer feels more attention needs to be paid to teaching these basic foundational skills in the U.S., and I agree.

 

[olympic]

It's shameful that more isn't being done to address the obvious need for skaters to learn how to skate and to master edge control. As retired skater, Scott Dyer recently said, "It's important to understand [and manage] transfer of weight and center of gravity, [while knowing] where you are on the blade." A number of Japanese skaters exhibit these talents, especially the ladies. But so many skaters throughout the sport do not. Dyer feels more attention needs to be paid to teaching these basic foundational skills in the U.S., and I agree.

I watched the TSL recap of Nationals and was just thinking about those comments by Scott Dyer while watching the JPN ladies skate in the LP. There never was a question of Mai or Rika getting it done. OTOH, U.S. ladies make you hold your breath. It's ironic that we were all touting Bradie as a US lady w/ master technique not too long ago, yet she is horribly prone to URs under pressure. But, I sincerely hope she can master her nerves.

 

[Bonjour Sherry]

It's nice to see some of Vincent Zhou's hard work paying off. But I think his landings were rather close and a bit shaky with ice flying. IOW, not bam bad a$$ landings. I can see Vincent was trying hard to not be under-rotated, but the 3-axel appeared slightly under-rotated to me on the replay. Plus, Vincent's aesthetics are not better than Junhwan Cha's. The judges have been keeping Cha down a bit this season, despite the fact that he's been skating brilliantly all season. Finally, Cha gets a season's best score, only to be beaten by around 3pts by someone whose been getting UR calls all season and actually didn't skate better than him?

I questioned the rotation of Vincent's sal. Then again, as we saw last year at Worlds, the consistency of Shin Amano's calls is questionable. Overall, I would have Cha first, then maybe Vincent second and Boyang third. But I think the three were all pretty close, so Vincent ahead of Junhwan would not have bothered me either. I certainly do not mind that Vincent is getting credit for landing quads and not getting hammered so much just because he is short of rotation here and there.

Unfortunately, Cha (and Eunsoo Lim) are not getting credit for their quality. At least not yet. It doesn't help that their federation is not more powerful. I hope it changes in the coming seasons when the Korean junior ladies become seniors and hopefully continue to kick a$$.

 

[olympic]

4CCs is in the books.

Here are the top 20 international scores for men post 4CCs:

1 Yuzuru Hanyu JPN 297.12 2018 GP Finland
2 Shoma Uno JPN 289.12 2019 4CCs
3 Nathan Chen USA 282.42 2018-19 GPF
4 Mikhail Kolyada RUS 274.37 2018 ONT
5 Jin Boyang CHN 273.51 2019 4CCs
6 Vincent Zhou USA 272.22 2019 4CCs
7 Javier Fernandez ESP 271.59 2019 Euros
8 Alexander Samarin RUS 269.84 2019 Euros
9 Keegan Messing CAN 267.61 2019 4CCs
10 Cha Jun Hwan KOR 263.49 2018-19 GPF
11 Jason Brown USA 263.42 2018 Golden Spin
12 Michal Brezina CZE 257.98 2018 GP Finland
13 Sergei Voronov RUS 254.28 2018 NHK
14 Keiji Tanaka JPN 251.54 2019 4CCs
15 Dmitri Aliev RUS 250.55 2018 Lombardia
16 Moris Kvitelashvili GEO 248.58 2018 RC
17 Maxim Kovtun RUS 247.55 2018 Tallinn
18 Matteo Rizzi ITA 247.08 2019 Euros
19 Kevin Aymoz FRA 246.34 2019 Euros
20 Andrei Lazukin RUS 243.45 2018 Lombardia

Top tier - Hanyu, Uno and Chen. I think Nathan's international score is deceptively low. If you were to consider his Nationals score as an international score, he would be around Hanyu

Dark Horses - Jin, Zhou, maybe Messing. I think Jin and Zhou are rising, like Jin always does late in the season, but I haven't seen any indication that Kolyada has fixed his consistency issues. His SB is from early in the season, but he always seems to knock it out of the park in the SP. He could be anything from Dark Horse to 10th.

Javi retired, so I crossed him out.

Penultimate Group - I think Samarin, Messing, Brown and Cha are close comparatively speaking and the best subset of the penultimate group: I imagine Samarin will be pushed hard by the RUS Fed at Worlds and Cha is a rising star, but I think Messing and then Brown have the most momentum out of this little group. Messing probably is the one most likely to sneak into the final group at Worlds. I think Brezina has fallen out of this mini-group a bit after having one of his best GPs ever, and while Tanaka is turning it on, I don't think he quite catches up to the aforementioned group.

Has Russia selected their World's team. Based on their selection for Euros, I don't think Russia is interested in sending Voronov, and not sure about Aliev. Whomever Russia chooses to send as no 3 will probably fight to get to the penultimate group, along with surging Rizzi and Aymoz. Moris is more miss than hit lately

 

[shine]

Could this be a breakthrough for Tomoki?? Loved both programs from him!! Awesome choreography and 200% commmitment to every move!

 

[Dobre]

I'm really proud of Tomoki. I think it's been gradual progress back. That ever since healing from injury mid-season during last year's JGP, he has been getting stronger and gaining competitive experience. Some rough performances along the way but a LOT of experienced gained. You know everything is a step. Learning what it's like to go up last at Nationals. What it's like to medal on the JGP, to go into Junior Worlds with expectations, to compete at your first JGPF, etc. Each experience is new the first time, and each time you gain that experience so that next time you're more ready to focus on the task at hand and the challenge before you. What an absolute fabulous competition and experience he had here! A lot of hard work & learning along the way.

 

[Frau Muller]

So proud of Vincent the Magnificent Zhou at 4Cs! Nathan and Vincent will both be gunning for top-5 at Worlds. The USA has a Dynamic Duo for Men’s singles in Saitama...and Beijing 2022, too.

 

[Willin]

Tomoki's skate was electric!

The problem I saw in person is that he's reallllly slow compared to pretty much everyone in the field. I think he can improve on that as he gets more confident in the jumps as his slowest moments were going into jumps. For other things he was still slow but not as glaringly so.

 

[livetoskate]

For me, having seen Tomoki skate at nationals twice, I think he needs work on his stretch and posture. He needs to be more like Jason Brown in gliding across the ice and finishing off his moves, and improving his spins. His huge Russian split jump is a highlight and of course, so are his jumps. It wasn't til recently I realized he, Vincent and Nathan are about the same age. Tomoki can't help being shorter, but he can work on making his presentation look less juniorish.

 

[Tahuu]

4CCs is in the books.

Here are the top 20 international scores for men post 4CCs:

1 Yuzuru Hanyu JPN 297.12 2018 GP Finland
2 Shoma Uno JPN 289.12 2019 4CCs
3 Nathan Chen USA 282.42 2018-19 GPF
4 Mikhail Kolyada RUS 274.37 2018 ONT
5 Jin Boyang CHN 273.51 2019 4CCs
6 Vincent Zhou USA 272.22 2019 4CCs
7 Javier Fernandez ESP 271.59 2019 Euros
8 Alexander Samarin RUS 269.84 2019 Euros
9 Keegan Messing CAN 267.61 2019 4CCs
10 Cha Jun Hwan KOR 263.49 2018-19 GPF
11 Jason Brown USA 263.42 2018 Golden Spin
12 Michal Brezina CZE 257.98 2018 GP Finland
13 Sergei Voronov RUS 254.28 2018 NHK
14 Keiji Tanaka JPN 251.54 2019 4CCs
15 Dmitri Aliev RUS 250.55 2018 Lombardia
16 Moris Kvitelashvili GEO 248.58 2018 RC
17 Maxim Kovtun RUS 247.55 2018 Tallinn
18 Matteo Rizzi ITA 247.08 2019 Euros
19 Kevin Aymoz FRA 246.34 2019 Euros
20 Andrei Lazukin RUS 243.45 2018 Lombardia

Top tier - Hanyu, Uno and Chen. I think Nathan's international score is deceptively low. If you were to consider his Nationals score as an international score, he would be around Hanyu

Dark Horses - Jin, Zhou, maybe Messing. I think Jin and Zhou are rising, like Jin always does late in the season, but I haven't seen any indication that Kolyada has fixed his consistency issues. His SB is from early in the season, but he always seems to knock it out of the park in the SP. He could be anything from Dark Horse to 10th.

Javi retired, so I crossed him out.

Penultimate Group - I think Samarin, Messing, Brown and Cha are close comparatively speaking and the best subset of the penultimate group: I imagine Samarin will be pushed hard by the RUS Fed at Worlds and Cha is a rising star, but I think Messing and then Brown have the most momentum out of this little group. Messing probably is the one most likely to sneak into the final group at Worlds. I think Brezina has fallen out of this mini-group a bit after having one of his best GPs ever, and while Tanaka is turning it on, I don't think he quite catches up to the aforementioned group.

Has Russia selected their World's team. Based on their selection for Euros, I don't think Russia is interested in sending Voronov, and not sure about Aliev. Whomever Russia chooses to send as no 3 will probably fight to get to the penultimate group, along with surging Rizzi and Aymoz. Moris is more miss than hit lately

World Standings post 4CC for the presumed Worlds competitors are as follows. They may be in the last two groups in the short program, unless 16 Deniss VASILJEVS, 17 Michal BREZINA and 18 Keiji TANAKA try to get some more points from B competitions prior to Worlds to climb over Morisi. Maybe Vincent could try one B competition to get pass Keegan into the final group?

1 5024 Shoma UNO

2 4802 Nathan CHEN

3 4540 Yuzuru HANYU

4 4274 Mikhail KOLYADA

5 3674 Jason BROWN

7 3390 Keegan MESSING

8 3327 Vincent ZHOU

9 3298 Alexander SAMARIN

10 3097 Boyang JIN

11 3094 Alexei BYCHENKO

12 3093 Matteo RIZZO

15 2753 Morisi KVITELASHVILI

 

[barbk]

Are you skipping 6 for a reason, @Tahuu?
(Thanks for the revised standings, btw.)

 

[Jammers]

World Standings post 4CC for the presumed Worlds competitors are as follows. They may be in the last two groups in the short program, unless 16 Deniss VASILJEVS, 17 Michal BREZINA and 18 Keiji TANAKA try to get some more points from B competitions prior to Worlds to climb over Morisi. Maybe Vincent could try one B competition to get pass Keegan into the final group?

1 5024 Shoma UNO

2 4802 Nathan CHEN

3 4540 Yuzuru HANYU

4 4274 Mikhail KOLYADA

5 3674 Jason BROWN

7 3390 Keegan MESSING

8 3327 Vincent ZHOU

9 3298 Alexander SAMARIN

10 3097 Boyang JIN

11 3094 Alexei BYCHENKO

12 3093 Matteo RIZZO

15 2753 Morisi KVITELASHVILI

How the heck is Nathan behind Shoma? Besides the Olympics Nathan hasn't be beaten in nearly two years while Uno has a lot of 2nd place finishes.

 

[Vagabond]

How the heck is Nathan behind Shoma? Besides the Olympics Nathan hasn't be beaten in nearly two years while Uno has a lot of 2nd place finishes.

You get more points for second-place finishes than you do for not competing. Actually, you get a lot more points for finishing at the only ISU Championship for which you are eligible thus far this season than for not showing up at all. Plus, the Olympics do count for a lot when it comes to World Standings points.

 

[nimi]

Are you skipping 6 for a reason, @Tahuu?

I'm not @Tahuu but I can tell you that the number 6 is Javi (3436 WS points), who is not a presumed Worlds competitor (because Euros was his farewell competition)

 

[olympic]

World Standings post 4CC for the presumed Worlds competitors are as follows. They may be in the last two groups in the short program, unless 16 Deniss VASILJEVS, 17 Michal BREZINA and 18 Keiji TANAKA try to get some more points from B competitions prior to Worlds to climb over Morisi. Maybe Vincent could try one B competition to get pass Keegan into the final group?

1 5024 Shoma UNO

2 4802 Nathan CHEN

3 4540 Yuzuru HANYU

4 4274 Mikhail KOLYADA

5 3674 Jason BROWN

7 3390 Keegan MESSING

8 3327 Vincent ZHOU

9 3298 Alexander SAMARIN

10 3097 Boyang JIN

11 3094 Alexei BYCHENKO

12 3093 Matteo RIZZO

15 2753 Morisi KVITELASHVILI

Jin in the final group should improve scoring levels in the 2nd to last group

 

[Tahuu]

I'm not @Tahuu but I can tell you that the number 6 is Javi (3436 WS points), who is not a presumed Worlds competitor (because Euros was his farewell competition)

Thanks. That's right. From the WS table (link in nimi's quote above), there are three main columns of raw scores - 1. ISU World Championships (or Olympic Winter Games), 2. ISU (Junior) Grand Prix and Final, and 3. Selected International Competition. GS's ice coverage has pointed out that WS point is calculated by adding two best scores from championships/OWG column, four best scores from GP/JGP column, and four best scores from senior B column. If Vincent would go to another senior B that gives WS points and get a gold (300 pts), he would have 3408 and be ahead of Keegan, as long as Keegan no longer competes in another senior B before Worlds. A silver (270 pts) would not be enough and give Vincent only 3378 pts.

 

[RoseRed]

Thanks. That's right. From the WS table (link in nimi's quote above), there are three main columns of raw scores - 1. ISU World Championships (or Olympic Winter Games), 2. ISU (Junior) Grand Prix and Final, and 3. Selected International Competition. GS's ice coverage has pointed out that WS point is calculated by adding two best scores from championships/OWG column, four best scores from GP/JGP column, and four best scores from senior B column. If Vincent would go to another senior B that gives WS points and get a gold (300 pts), he would have 3408 and be ahead of Keegan, as long as Keegan no longer competes in another senior B before Worlds. A silver (270 pts) would not be enough and give Vincent only 3378 pts.

I believe that 300 points is only for CS events and winning other senior Bs gives 250 points. It looks like that's what Satoko got for winning the Bavarian Open.

 

[Tahuu]

I believe that 300 points is only for CS events and winning other senior Bs gives 250 points. It looks like that's what Satoko got for winning the Bavarian Open.

Oh, then it would not be enough for Vincent to overtake Keegan even with a gold now. The last group at Worlds' short program may be set:

1 5024 Shoma UNO
2 4802 Nathan CHEN
3 4540 Yuzuru HANYU
4 4274 Mikhail KOLYADA
5 3674 Jason BROWN
7 3390 Keegan MESSING

 

[olympic]

But, good for Jason and Nathan to be in the final group. Vincent is very close. All US men should get good draws

 

[MrMystery]

Really nice to see how well the current U.S. men are doing on the world scene. Post-2010, we had quite the inconsistent set and dry spell. If Vinny can clean up the jumps in a more consistent way, we could definitely challenge for two U.S. men on a world podium. Jason too if he can get the quad sal going in any consistent manner.

 

[Jayar]

Oh, then it would not be enough for Vincent to overtake Keegan even with a gold now. The last group at Worlds' short program may be set:

1 5024 Shoma UNO
2 4802 Nathan CHEN
3 4540 Yuzuru HANYU
4 4274 Mikhail KOLYADA
5 3674 Jason BROWN
7 3390 Keegan MESSING

Is Kolyada going to the WC? I didn't think that the men's team was set yet...

 

[MIsty Blades/Skate Mom]

I'm currently fantasizing about a 1-2-3 US Sweep on the podium with these 3 guys standing on it in any order. I love all 3 skaters for different reasons.

But, good for Jason and Nathan to be in the final group. Vincent is very close. All US men should get good draws

 

[Debbie S]

Ryan Dunk (J1) will be competing at Challenge Cup in Junior next week and Daniel Martynov (I2) will compete in Advanced Novice: https://usfigureskating.org/story?id=84032&menu=TeamUSA

 

[Colonel Green]

Is Kolyada going to the WC? I didn't think that the men's team was set yet...

It hasn’t been announced yet, but I think most assume he will. They’ll obviously send Samarin, and there aren’t two more Russians with better track records than Kolyada.

 

[olympic]

It hasn’t been announced yet, but I think most assume he will. They’ll obviously send Samarin, and there aren’t two more Russians with better track records than Kolyada.

Kolyada has the highest score for the Russian men this season and is the reigning World Bronze medalist. I think the team will be Kolyada, Samarin but the 3rd spot is the tough one: Kovtun won Russian Nationals but was once again a disaster at Euros. Then, Russia named Lazukin no. 1 alternate ahead of Aliev. So, I really think the 3rd spot is hard to work out for the Russian Fed

 

[Tavi]

Kolyada has the highest score for the Russian men this season and is the reigning World Bronze medalist. I think the team will be Kolyada, Samarin but the 3rd spot is the tough one: Kovtun won Russian Nationals but was once again a disaster at Euros. Then, Russia named Lazukin no. 1 alternate ahead of Aliev. So, I really think the 3rd spot is hard to work out for the Russian Fed

I’m confused - why are you discussing Russian men in the US men’s thread?

 

[misskarne]

I cannot wait to see Jason at Worlds again. I feel like if he nails the SP clean again he'll be a chance at breaking 100. Which he should. If he can just stand up on that Salchow in the FS...