Tornadoes

[rfisher]

One of the things we have drilled into us since childhood is don’t go out in a storm and try to out run a tornado.

The vilification of the candle company is about to make me lose my mind. Tornados don’t happen there in December, especially not like this. Even in the spring… if everything was shut down every time there might be weather… and most of the time, these storms that start in Missouri or Arkansas lose power and intensity when the go over the river and turn into nothing more than a regular thunderstorm. People from all over the far Western Kentucky area drove in to work at the factory. Once that storm crossed the river…. Sending people home would have literally sent some of them into the storm. Given the shape that much of the town is in, there’s also no guarantee that even those who lived near would have been any more safe.

There are also a lot of hot takes by people in parts of the country with a more expensive cost of living about trying to tie the starting wage to the roof collapsing in what was possibly an EF5 tornado. No one is adjusting for cost of living and how cheap it is to live there. 8 dollars there is equivalent to 20-30 dollars an hour in the more expensive coastal cities. Also… an EF5 tornado makes a lot of buildings look cheap, no matter how well they were actually built.

My favorite COL example: My parents 3000+ square feet new house that was built new cost less than half of what of what my former roommate paid for her 1200 square feet 55 year old house that is going to need a bunch of exterior repairs at some point.

Exactly. I'm from tornado alley country. Depending on the width, a tornado can destroy one structure and leave two on each side perfectly intact. There is flat out no way to predict the path or how long one will stay on the ground. The people in the factory were as safe there as they would be in their cars at night. They were just unlucky. Tornados are not like hurricanes. I watched a funnel cross the interstate in front of me. I kept driving because they don't reverse direction. I've seen a funnel headed straight toward a hospital, and lift up before it hit. You can take shelter, but if there is a direct hit, good luck because there is nothing you can do. I never went to a basement during bad weather. Ever. Stay outside and watch the sky has always been my philosophy.

 

[PRlady]

I’ve never lived in a place with frequent hurricanes, tornadoes or earthquakes. But one of our apartments in Israel will be rebuilt in a development program, to new code with a safe room…for bombs. Jerusalem also happens to be on an earthquake fault that is way overdue for an event.

When people say why don’t those people living in dangerous areas just move, my eyes roll back in my head. Your home is your home. If we leave Jerusalem for Haifa as we are considering, we trade earthquake risk for potential for Hezbollah bombs hitting the oil storage facilities on the docks and blowing up the whole city. There are very few really safe places.

 

[Cachoo]

Exactly. I'm from tornado alley country. Depending on the width, a tornado can destroy one structure and leave two on each side perfectly intact. There is flat out no way to predict the path or how long one will stay on the ground. The people in the factory were as safe there as they would be in their cars at night. They were just unlucky. Tornados are not like hurricanes. I watched a funnel cross the interstate in front of me. I kept driving because they don't reverse direction. I've seen a funnel headed straight toward a hospital, and lift up before it hit. You can take shelter, but if there is a direct hit, good luck because there is nothing you can do. I never went to a basement during bad weather. Ever. Stay outside and watch the sky has always been my philosophy.

Just curious...what do you do when they arrive at night? The night storms are the ones that send me to the basement quickly.

 

[rfisher]

Nothing different. There are issues with basements, and the fact is most houses in AR, OK, and other areas where tornadoes are common don't have basements. Internal hallways are about as safe as a basement. Weather radio is your best resource, especially as they are battery operated and not electric. And, just hope there isn't a direct hit. Mostly, I don't worry about them because there really isn't a lot you can do if there is.

 

[TOADS]

I guess I have been extremely fortunate to work for companies that had multiple, well built storm facilities that were large enough to handle everyone. Would they have held for an EF5? Not sure, but I always felt quite safe as the shelters were below grade.

Below grade would handle an EF5, the weakest portion would be the door. Above grade chances are lower. Even though it may be solid concrete, the structure would be subject to battering by debris. A car hurled at 175 mph would damage even solid concrete.

 

[aka_gerbil]

There will be a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking on this tornado. I think when they finally determine what the strength of this tornado was, there will be more investigations into the judgement calls for the employees of both factories.

From what I have read, apparently there were shelter areas at the Amazon facility and the casualties were among those on loading docks and did not have time to make it to a shelter.

As far as the candle factory, Ive seen stories that say there were shelter areas and there weren’t shelter areas. If there was, it most likely that it was built to withstand up to an EF2 or EF3. It would not stand a chance against an EF4 or EF5. This can be seen in some of the storm damage that shows broken concrete wall with bent rebar steel showing.

In any case, I expect to see big changes made to building codes, much like what happened in Florida following Hurricane Andrew.

Up until this, the tornados experienced were of the very short track EF0 and EF1 varieties. You build for what your hazards are and massive, violent tornadoes were not something that happened until this.

One of the good things that came out of that ridiculous earthquake prediction in 1990 was an awareness that the area needed to do a better job being prepared. Older construction needed retrofitting and stricter codes were put into place for new.

My understanding/what I’ve always been told is that the type of construction best for withstanding earthquakes isn’t typically the best for withstanding strong winds.

All that says, one of my good friends live in Florida and live in a house they built new. It’s built to withstand cat 4 hurricanes. Even that house would not have been strong enough to withstand EF5 tornado wind speeds.

I experienced so many more tornado watches and warnings in my younger years. Now I think of the southern states as tornado alley. But do people have safe rooms, strong shelters, basements etc....

Where we’re at though… tornados were very rare most of my life. Things went above us (Illinois, Indiana, Ohio) or below (Arkansas, Mississippi, Alabama). Storms that formed in NW Arkansas or Missouri lose steam crossing the river..

Things like safe rooms and storm shelters are not something people in the area needed. Some older houses have basements, but they’re not typical (and have their own sets of risk, particularly when you also have an earthquake threat to consider).

 

[TOADS]

Full impact of this disaster hits home when they start to show pictures of the victims. This really personalizes it……

 

[MacMadame]

I went to college in Indiana. You learn to be pretty blase about tornado watches. You just don't do anything that will put you at risk if the watch turns into a warning. (And even sometimes you do that just because they can go on forever and you have stuff to do.) In case people don't realize this: A watch just means conditions are ripe for a tornado. A warning means an actual funnel was sighted within a certain mileage of where you are.

I remember one year I was working dispatch for our campus security during a tornado watch. Some girls from out of the area called in absolutely terrified so I sent over a security guard to talk to them. They were hiding under their coffee table! (He explained the difference to them and they calmed down.)

We only went down to the basement if there was a warning. The basements had cinder block walls while the rest of the dorms were of regular construction materials. We'd stay in the hallway because the dorm rooms had windows. And in the four years, the closest an actual tornado came was to touch down on the other side of town while we were all on spring break and not in the dorms.

I still hate tornados the most of all the extreme weather/nature events because they are so capricious. If there was only a warning and people wanted to go home, I would also tell them not to if I were in charge. And once there was a warning, we'd all stop work and go into the safe area/room. Going home for a watch is silly and going home during a warning is stupid. Shelter in place! (I also wouldn't threaten to fire people though. I'd just say they were not getting paid and strongly advise them to stay.)

 

[aka_gerbil]

NWS Paducah tweeted that a team of experts specializing in high end tornado ratings is being brought in. It’s going to take several days.

https://twitter.com/nwspaducah/status/1470501755913965574?s=21

 

[aka_gerbil]

The have the rating at EF4 now, but that’s not final. It sounds like a lot of the houses were not bolted to the foundation of not bolted well. That does not surprise me given the age of the homes and that most all if not all were built prior to the code changes in the 90s.

ETA: But apparently Moore, OK was prelim EF4 before being upgraded.

 

[TOADS]

This is sick.

Some people have been arrested for looting materials such as copper from houses that have been Demolished.

I could understand searching for food or items to relieve suffering, however, looting for items to sell as scrap?

I hope the cops were less than kind when they arrested them….

 

[MacMadame]

This is sick.

Some people have been arrested for looting materials such as copper from houses that have been Demolished.

I could understand searching for food or items to relieve suffering, however, looting for items to sell as scrap?

I hope the cops were less than kind when they arrested them….

Maybe they were looting to sell the items to pay for food and shelter?

 

[aka_gerbil]

Maybe they were looting to sell the items to pay for food and shelter?

They were not. The group arrested were not from communities hit by the tornado. One also has a meth charge….

Stealing copper to sell for scrap has been a major, major problem in the area for years now.

Graves County Sheriff's Office

December 18, 2021 Subject: Five suspects arrested in storm ravaged neighborhood. On Friday afternoon, Graves Sheriff’s deputies were alerted to suspicious activity in the area of Cardinal and...

www.facebook.com

 

[LeafOnTheWind]

Unfortunately looters come out in force to take from people who've just lost everything themselves. We had a lot of looting reports even with the police blockades. They mostly don't work.

 

[aka_gerbil]

One of my friends who had her house destroyed had some appliances stolen. She’s pretty sure they don’t work anymore, but when you’re trying to salvage what you can…

On a different note, it sounds like the courthouse is in too bad of shape to repair. The hope is they’ll be able to salvage materials to incorporate into a rebuilt courthouse.

It’s really hard to wrap my head around that so much of this town that helped build me as a person is gone.

 

[purple skates]

On a different note, it sounds like the courthouse is in too bad of shape to repair. The hope is they’ll be able to salvage materials to incorporate into a rebuilt courthouse.

In the mid-90s the courthouse in a nearby town to me was hit by a tornado, which caused a fire, which caused the sprinklers to go off. The sprinklers destroyed all of the historical court case files in storage. Although digitization is more common now, many historical files are still in paper format and could be lost in your courthouse.

Things you never think about in situations like this.

 

[Cachoo]

Well we just had a tornado and my YMCA was shredded. It hit Andover but I don’t think it is as horrendous as the tornado that hit Andover in 1991. Hopefully everyone is ok.

 

[Cachoo]

I think this was a small tornado but it still packed a punch. Drone footage: https://youtu.be/lxdFh8nYMgM

 

[Cachoo]

Protecting the animals

Kansas tornados April 29, 2022

April 29, 2022Spring in Kansas can bring wild weather!! Turned the horses out to minimize risks from blowing debris if we get hit.#Rescuedoneright#Horsesoft...

youtu.be

 

[mrr50]

I will never forget driving a college friend home after a tornado in 1974. She lived on a farm not far from Xenia, Ohio. Thankfully it was a grain farm because there was nothing left. Family sheltered in the basement. House, barns, tractors, combines, you name it...it was gone.