The Skating Lesson

[VGThuy]

And the few times Asian males were in movies/TV it's always been like Mickey Rooney in Breakfast at Tiffany's or Long Duk Dong or whatever his name is in Sixteen Candles. For many mainstream films that isn't consciously showcasing Asian characters, it's either that or some other variation of the emasculated/unattractive Asian male who is funny because he's so bad at socializing or no representation for Asian males. Those types characters still exist in some sitcoms today.

 

[Dobre]

Dave may have been trying to express the idea that Starr was different from the norm (for whatever reason he felt that was necessary to point out) but IMO he chose a really unfortunate phrase to characterize that.

Sadly, I think commentators and fans often elect negative terminology to describe something that is different from the norm. There is a quote I once read telling authors to pay attention to whatever is critiqued in their initial reviews and cultivate it. Because that is the element that makes you unique.

I very often think it's true for skaters. Often the elements that people criticize the most within one's skating are your greatest strengths and the ones that make you special. Betina Popova & Lorraine McNamara's expression. Wang & Liu and Coomes & Buckland's lifts. The Shibs' twizzles and sense of perfection. Nathan's quads. Jason's enthusiasm. Katarina Witt's sex appeal. Grishuk & Platov's fast footwork. Virtue & Moir's infamous lift from last season. The list goes on and on and on.

Starr is not a Michelle Kwan or Sasha Cohen type. She doesn't have tremendous extension, a perfect layback, a lot of the things that Dick Button liked to rant & rave about and that are often held up as "the ideal" in U.S. Ladies Skating. But she is a unique performer. And while she has a lot of work to do, I hope she will cultivate the aspects of her personality and skating that thrilled the crowd at last year's nationals.

 

[NinjaTurtles]

And the few times Asian males were in movies/TV it's always been like Mickey Rooney in Breakfast at Tiffany's or Long Duk Dong or whatever his name is in Sixteen Candles. For many mainstream films that isn't consciously showcasing Asian characters, it's either that or some other variation of the emasculated/unattractive Asian male who is funny because he's so bad at socializing or no representation for Asian males. Those types characters still exist in some sitcoms today.

Off topic, but have you watched Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt? If yes, what are your thoughts on Dong?

 

[Tinami Amori]

^^^^^^^ That too. Also there has always been the 'gayish' character used for comic relief in film and television. It is cringeworthy.

There have been and still are "comic characters" of every kind/gender/ethnicity/race/social class/etc., in TV and Film. The issue is are there "serious" central characters from the same groups, and it depends on time-line/decade we're looking at. I would say after the late 1970's/early 80's there are "serious central characters" from all groups.

For many mainstream films that isn't consciously showcasing Asian characters, it's either that or some other variation of the emasculated/unattractive Asian male who is funny because he's so bad at socializing or no representation for Asian males. Those types characters still exist in some sitcoms today.

I must have been watching different "top/mainstream" TV and Films. I remember Bruce Lee, Seven Samurai/Toshiro Mifuni, smart Mr. Sulu/Star Trek, The Wise Man/7 faces of Dr. Lao, etc..

 

[VGThuy]

Off topic, but have you watched Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt? If yes, what are your thoughts on Dong?

I actually didn't mind it so much but I can't see why some people had an issue with him...like comparing an immigrant with somebody who had been kidnapped and kept from the outside world for like 10 or so years and them having similar American life experience. I did like a lot of his one-liners though and I cannot say he was emasculated since Kimmy had the hots for him. The biggest issue I had was that he was Vietnamese immigrant and he certainly did not have a Vietnamese broken English accent. It sounded like a generic East Asian accent actors learn.

 

[CaliSteve]

And the few times Asian males were in movies/TV it's always been like Mickey Rooney in Breakfast at Tiffany's or Long Duk Dong or whatever his name is in Sixteen Candles. For many mainstream films that isn't consciously showcasing Asian characters, it's either that or some other variation of the emasculated/unattractive Asian male who is funny because he's so bad at socializing or no representation for Asian males. Those types characters still exist in some sitcoms today.

Unfortunately it exist in every aspect of today's society. I bet a majority of your white female and gay males will tell you that they aren't attractive to Asians.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Unfortunately it exist in every aspect of today's society. I bet a majority of your white female and gay males will tell you that they aren't attractive to Asians.

Did you mean "attractive to Asians" or "attracted to Asians"? If you mean the 2nd version, it is a different conversation..

 

[VALuvsMKwan]

Unfortunately it exist in every aspect of today's society. I bet a majority of your white female and gay males will tell you that they aren't attractive to Asians.

Did you mean "attractive to Asians" or "attracted to Asians"? If you mean the 2nd version, it is a different conversation..

What TA said - the meaning of your post is unclear to me as well.

 

[CaliSteve]

What TA said - the meaning of your post is unclear to me as well.

Sorry- I meant "attracted" to Asians.

Not a different conversation because their is a correlation between the emasculation of Asian men in the media and a person's view on Asian men.

 

[VGThuy]

Yeah and we Asian girls have to deal with the brunt of that anger.

 

[DimaToe]

Y’all were on a good track then the generalizing started. Maybe in the older crowd (yeah I said it) the lack of attractiveness to Asian men might be a real issue but within MY OWN experience I’ve found that people think sexy is sexy. Race and what not are secondary features Dave Lease might be a racist (which I found funny, if he wants to snark on a skater I don’t think their skin is much of a factor, he wil still be a b!tch) but ok that’s fine, but turning that into a majority of white women and gay men find Asian males non attractive then feeding into it... ok then

 

[VGThuy]

Unless you’ve been paying attention to all the convos I’ve been a part of from Asian dudes talking about the issue (both straight and gay and in-between), something similar that black women talk about, and the major convos that happen online (google it) then don’t lecture me. I think a lot of comes out toxic and leads to attacking Asian women and is supported by confirmation bias, but the insecurity exists and some times there is something to it.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I really like Starr in that even at such a young age, she has a clear vision of what she wants to achieve as a performer.

I applaud her for using music choices that shake things up a bit, and in doing so, gives her skating a personal touch.

She seems to really enjoy being out there, too.

This season is really shaping up to be so interesting for a lot of the skaters.

 

[berthesghost]

Skaters have been skating to music that reflects their heritage since forever and no one bats an eye so this like most of dave’s Observations, is pure nonsense.

Just because he wasn’t holding a tiki torch in one hand and a copy of mein kamf in the other while a confederate flag waved in the background doesnt excuse the fact that he made racially insensitive comments, dog whistling like he was auditioning for Fox News.

And sorry but people can f-off with this academic definition of racist bs. When they’re burning a cross on your lawn you’re not thinking “oh, well they didn’t hang me from my tree, so technically this isn’t racism per se”

 

[Vera Costa]

The Wise Man/7 faces of Dr. Lao, etc..

With its Yellowface caricature???

 

[Icetigger]

Dave Lease is a joyless **** whose critique solely consists of shoving every skater in a Kwan shaped box and taking a chainsaw to the parts of them that don't fit to that box. The idea of what skating should be is so ingrained and unquestioned in his head that he only really has negative things to say about anyone. Poor Jonathan has been completely Gretchened by him, and reduced to making "you look like nice today Regina" comments at the start of every video. Whole videos go by without positive commentary on anyone, and without even reference to what one actually gets to see on the ice. The level of attack on some female skaters and also the pedestaling of others (or rather those who mould and manufacture them, because god forbid any skater's output should come from their own imagination) to the point of ridiculousness are all part of the same underlying misogyny that drives the commentary. Quite frankly that more explains the commentary on Starr Andews than any allegation of racism. That and the fact that this is amateur journalism at its worst, where an unsubstantiated allegation is used, misinterpreted and expanded upon without those doing so giving the person whom it is about the right of reply.

 

[Rock2]

Did you mean "attractive to Asians" or "attracted to Asians"? If you mean the 2nd version, it is a different conversation..

In some ways it doesn't really matter. Bigotry and sexual attraction are two different things. Once again, per my earlier comment, some people are too quick to pull the racism lever.

The two concepts only intersect if someone says 'while I'm sexually attracted to (insert race) I refuse to date them because i have a problem with the race'.

Pure physical/sexual/romantic attraction has nothing to do with bigotry and racism. If that were the case you could call me a bigot because I don't date women.....or men outside of a certain age range, etc.

You can consciously change your beliefs and opinions about a race or any other demo profile (religion, gender, age etc) but there is no button to push or conversation to have that can make me attracted to someone that I'm just not. If you truly feel that's the case then I guess you'll be signing up for gay conversion therapy.

 

[Quadaxel2020]

And sorry but people can f-off with this academic definition of racist bs. When they’re burning a cross on your lawn you’re not thinking “oh, well they didn’t hang me from my tree, so technically this isn’t racism per se”

Exactly! Just because something doesn't fit your neat, careful definition of "racism" doesn't mean it isn't racist. The "white dude who considers [him]self a champion of racial equality" from Canada made me cringe with his black and white view of what should be considered a racist comment in America and how we need to be careful not to play the race card. Thinking like that isn't progressive. I don't think Dave is going to be burning any crosses soon but it's harmful not to consider why what he said was problematic.

 

[berthesghost]

Pure physical/sexual/romantic attraction has nothing to do with bigotry and racism. If that were the case you could call me a bigot because I don't date women.....or men outside of a certain age range, etc.

completely disagree. Racists use sexual propaganda to demonize a particular race, either by over sexualizing black men or by slagging off Asian men as un masculine, right down to unscientific generalizations like all black men have big #%^*s and all Asian men have small ones. Sexual attraction isn’t just nature, it’s also nurtured and if you think you find an entire race of men (the tall ones, the short ones, the funny ones, the serious ones, the bearded ones, the clean shaven ones, etc) not your cup of tea just because you were born that way, you’re kidding yourself imho.

 

[MAXSwagg]

Skaters have been skating to music that reflects their heritage since forever and no one bats an eye so this like most of dave’s Observations, is pure nonsense.

Just because he wasn’t holding a tiki torch in one hand and a copy of mein kamf in the other while a confederate flag waved in the background doesnt excuse the fact that he made racially insensitive comments, dog whistling like he was auditioning for Fox News.

And sorry but people can f-off with this academic definition of racist bs. When they’re burning a cross on your lawn you’re not thinking “oh, well they didn’t hang me from my tree, so technically this isn’t racism per se”

It was not a racist comment, madam. And you are absolutely out of line. Are you even a minority? I know what a racist comment or action is because I’ve experienced it. I’ve also experienced bigotry. Don’t tell me to f*ck off - especially if you’re white - just because I don’t want to throw around the word “racism” and apply it to every little thing. Especially if you’re white (I don’t know if you are), because you’ve never experienced racism so don’t tell me what is and isn’t and what I should and should not do.

Are you one of those oppressive people who thinks whackos like Ann Coulter or Milo Yiannopoulos should not be allowed on university campuses?

 

[berthesghost]

When Ashley said she was gyped she absolutely used a common expression that had racist history behind it. Did she do it on purpose to use her celebrity to further a racist agenda? I highly doubt it. Is she a racist? I highly doubt it. Is the expression racially insensitive. Yes. Has she continued to use it publicly? Not that I'm aware of. It's just basic civility to stop saying things that offend others, regardless of your intent. But of course, continuously claiming that pointing out dave's racially insensitive comment = calling him a racist is just people furthering their own agenda regardless of the facts. Now we're in a witch hunt where opinions have to be backed up and judged by proof of ethnicity.

 

[giselle23]

It was not a racist comment, madam. And you are absolutely out of line. Are you even a minority? I know what a racist comment or action is because I’ve experienced it. I’ve also experienced bigotry. Don’t tell me to f*ck off - especially if you’re white - just because I don’t want to throw around the word “racism” and apply it to every little thing. Especially if you’re white (I don’t know if you are), because you’ve never experienced racism so don’t tell me what is and isn’t and what I should and should not do.

Are you one of those oppressive people who thinks whackos like Ann Coulter or Milo Yiannopoulos should not be allowed on university campuses?

Wow! What did I say to provoke this tirade of insults! I stand by my standard dictionary definition of racism.

ETA: I see this was in response to someone else's post but I was alerted.
I don't see what anyone else did to provoke it.

 

[Prancer]

Do I need to move this thread to PI?

Can we not have a conversation about something controversial or uncomfortable here without people flinging insults at other posters?

 

[aftershocks]

Oh for God's sake. Dave is probably sitting back laughing at how he managed to stir things up with his biased commentary unfairly directed toward Starr Andrews and her mother. As I said, any time issues of 'race,' a term created to divide people, is brought up, people's emotions get involved. And on Internet forums, things can wander off into uncalled for bickering. Those engaging in personal insults simply need to check themselves. And those being overly sensitive to strong language and strong opinions that were not singling them out in the first place, need to stop over-reacting and take a look in the mirror.

This is about Dave's and Jonathan's latest trashing of skaters to which I took offense. And I decided to call them out for it, and I did, and I will continue to do so. They had a nerve trying to mock Starr Andrew's music choices, and absolute gall passing on hearsay accusations and assumptions that her mother has a so-called 'preference' for Starr to skate to music by African-American artists. If in fact Starr's mother does have such a sole 'preference,' which is in doubt, so f'ing what! Did anyone complain or take issue with any of the many skaters who have performed to renditions of I Put a Spell on You, and to renditions of James Brown's It's a Man's World (But It Wouldn't Be Nothing Without a Woman or a Girl)??? Why did TSL decide to take Starr to task in particular? Why are they making the assumption, or making up the claim that her mother only wants her to skate to the music of 'black' artists? Even if true, why would or why should that be considered something to carp about or mock? Is it because Starr Andrews is a young African-American skater, and Dave & cohort & whoever else in the skating community feel unconsciously or consciously uncomfortable with that?

Maybe we can try to stay on topic about TSL and the issue of calling out Dave for his latest dis-fest. And discuss these 'racial-bias' comments within that context. In the U.S. ladies thread, I initially elaborated two days ago on what I feel about Dave's & Jonathan's slam-fest, in response to queries and comments there by other posters. So everyone participating here truly need to read everything, check out the pertinent comments in the TSL podcast, or if the comments were edited out (I don't know if they were or not), look at the transcript I posted several pages ago in this thread. I posted it just in case Dave might decide to edit that section out or take down that podcast episode.

Meanwhile, early yesterday I removed from the transcript my one-word descriptors regarding the grinning and the laughing. I was accused of stage-managing what they said, which is laughable. No way does Dave require my assistance nor anyone's assistance in stage-managing his snarky points of view. But okay, I removed the descriptors if that helps some people to better focus. Taking away my descriptors takes nothing away from the fact that Dave and Jonathan were laughing, grinning, and making gestures and facial expressions, while mocking Starr Andrews and her music choices. I also left in brackets some of my personal reactions to what they said. And what they said, word-for-word is still there for all to see.

Anyone commenting here can feel anyway they happen to feel about it. I'm calling out what they said and how they said it for what I perceive it be. IMO, they are definitely showing racial-bias in their comments, complete with smirking, grinning, laughing, and gesturing. They are blatantly showing disrespect to a young skater and to her mother, while gratuitously and snidely throwing other skaters (current and retired) into their ignorant dis-fest. Of course being jerks is not new or surprising coming from Dave and Jonathan. If they actually wished to seriously critique Starr's skating, then that's what they should have focused on, preferably in a constructive manner. But I think it's quite obvious that Dave doesn't know the meaning of 'constructive' criticism.

I'm not planning to appease anybody, soft-pedal anything, nor make light of what I feel is wrong. I'll be back.

 

[MAXSwagg]

Wow! What did I say to provoke this tirade of insults! I stand by my standard dictionary definition of racism.

ETA: I see this was in response to someone else's post but I was alerted.
I don't see what anyone else did to provoke it.

Yes, it was a saved quote. But anyway there was no insult in my post, let alone a “tirade” of them.

 

[chachacha]

Oh for God's sake. Dave is probably sitting back laughing at how he managed to stir things up with his biased commentary unfairly directed toward Starr Andrews and her mother. As I said, any time issues of 'race,' a term created to divide people, is brought up, people's emotions get involved. And on Internet forums, things can wander off into uncalled for bickering. Those engaging in personal insults simply need to check themselves. And those being overly sensitive to strong language and strong opinions that were not singling them out in the first place, need to stop over-reacting and take a look in the mirror.

This is about Dave's and Jonathan's latest trashing of skaters to which I took offense. And I decided to call them out for it, and I did, and I will continue to do so. They had a nerve trying to mock Starr Andrew's music choices, and absolute gall passing on hearsay accusations and assumptions that her mother has a so-called 'preference' for Starr to skate to music by African-American artists. If in fact Starr's mother does have such a sole 'preference,' which is in doubt, so f'ing what! Did anyone complain or take issue with any of the many skaters who have performed to renditions of I Put a Spell on You, and to renditions of James Brown's It's a Man's World (But It Wouldn't Be Nothing Without a Woman or a Girl)??? Why did TSL decide to take Starr to task in particular? Why are they making the assumption, or making up the claim that her mother only wants her to skate to the music of 'black' artists? Even if true, why would or why should that be considered something to carp about or mock? Is it because Starr Andrews is a young African-American skater, and Dave & cohort & whoever else in the skating community feel unconsciously or consciously uncomfortable with that?

Maybe we can try to stay on topic about TSL and the issue of calling out Dave for his latest dis-fest. And discuss these 'racial-bias' comments within that context. In the U.S. ladies thread, I initially elaborated two days ago on what I feel about Dave's & Jonathan's slam-fest, in response to queries and comments there by other posters. So everyone participating here truly need to read everything, check out the pertinent comments in the TSL podcast, or if the comments were edited out (I don't know if they were or not), look at the transcript I posted several pages ago in this thread. I posted it just in case Dave might decide to edit that section out or take down that podcast episode.

Meanwhile, early yesterday I removed from the transcript my one-word descriptors regarding the grinning and the laughing. I was accused of stage-managing what they said, which is laughable. No way does Dave require my assistance nor anyone's assistance in stage-managing his snarky points of view. But okay, I removed the descriptors if that helps some people to better focus. Taking away my descriptors takes nothing away from the fact that Dave and Jonathan were laughing, grinning, and making gestures and facial expressions, while mocking Starr Andrews and her music choices. I also left in brackets some of my personal reactions to what they said. And what they said, word-for-word is still there for all to see.

Anyone commenting here can feel anyway they happen to feel about it. I'm calling out what they said and how they said it for what I perceive it be. IMO, they are definitely showing racial-bias in their comments, complete with smirking, grinning, laughing, and gesturing. They are blatantly showing disrespect to a young skater and to her mother, while gratuitously and snidely throwing other skaters (current and retired) into their ignorant dis-fest. Of course being jerks is not new or surprising coming from Dave and Jonathan. If they actually wished to seriously critique Starr's skating, then that's what they should have focused on, preferably in a constructive manner. But I think it's quite obvious that Dave doesn't know the meaning of 'constructive' criticism.

I'm not planning to appease anybody, soft-pedal anything, nor make light of what I feel is wrong. I'll be back.

Dave And his Minion Jonathan are two people who clearly have nothing better to do then make judgements on a sport they have no clue about except as skating fans. If either of them were elite skaters themselves then perhaps they can bash who they want! But do it in a constructive manner. But Dave as an adult skater has poor skating skills, awful artistry and the worst posture and only wishes he could skate like the skaters he bashes. Jonathan can’t skate, but can sing so people who want to even watch these goones are wasting there time. Constructive feedback is one thing but they are a waste of space on you tube! I stopped watching these morons when Jennifer Kirk signed off! It has gotten so bad since Jennifer left and is now just trash! I don’t care who they interview, because everything they do is nothing but trash and not worthy of people actually encouraging there Chanel by watching the crap.

 

[MK's Winter]

Interview with Raf-

https://youtu.be/fgQLeq5JKnI

 

[Rock2]

Interview with Raf-

https://youtu.be/fgQLeq5JKnI

Some good commentary from Raf, but I continue to be distracted by Jonathan's constant "YAW.....YAW.......YAW....." as Raf talks. I had to turn it off.

I mean, he can't help how he talks. It's just grating to my ears ::::: shrug :::::::

 

[zebraswan]

Did they talk about Alexander Abt at all? I can't stand Dave & Jonathan, so I don't want to waste my time if not.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Did they talk about Alexander Abt at all? I can't stand Dave & Jonathan, so I don't want to waste my time if not.

I don't believe he did. The sound on the video is bad. He did talk about "Sasha" but i am sure it was Cohen.
Dave and Jonathan, surprise surprise, did not talk much, only asked some questions and exclaimed. Rafik did all the talking, so you can listen without worries....
He did not say anything that new...
- he might swear or be un-PC because he learned english from TV and off the streets.
- it took him many years to learn to be a good coach, describes all the influences. Tarasova is one of them.
- he believes that talent and good qualities are genetically passed. like TAT got it from her father.
- when he started as a coach, he had to train all sorts of students, any one who walks off the street, not champion material.
- he is not getting any young age students, to train them the right way from the start. the older ones come with problems.
- He is working with Honda, goal is to make the World Team, she is 16, has some issues, but there is hope.
- Talked about age increase and quads.
- Again complained that in USA he has to watch his methods, not like in Russia, where he can "dictate" because young people need to be "dictated to" until they grow up.
- Adam and Ashley. He is hard worker, but had to learn to be one. For Ashley it was harder, she slacked off last season.
- Michelle Kwan was "the epitome of hard work", no-one had to push her. She was only held back by health issues/injuries.
- Nathan has two great programmes, they will work out something schedule wise so that Rafik can still coach him. Nathan is expected to do well, even with such arrangement.
- He will work with Bell, for the top placement possible, she has potential, but she is not a kid any more.
- He thinks Orser is good for Med, because he will make her feel that he believes in her goals, since back in Moscow she may have felt that new girls are Eteri's priority now.
- He misses Adam and Ashley, they created a fun atmosphere at the rink, they talk sometimes, and he hopes they come back someday.
- he was asked if he can train pairs, and he did not jump at the idea..
... few other things i am sure i left out.