The Skating Lesson

aftershocks

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^^ Slag off @Tinami Amori. I obviously mentioned that Dave and Jonathan included a number of people in their snark-fest. And that's nothing new.

Russians are among one of the groups that make up present-day people of Slavic origin. Obviously, Russia and the former Soviet Union have a more recently varied ethnic melting pot history. "Negroid" is also a faux manmade term, as are "Australoid, Caucasoid, and Mongoloid." All created to divide and categorize humans. I never said anything about France in regard to 'African-American,' or the faux term, 'Black.'
 
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During my day's in the Navy there was a man stationed in my unit who's name was Julian, he looked and sounded just like "Dave" Lees. He was very enameled with an older and very muscly man in the next unit, I can't remember his name but everyone called him "the Rectifier." Whenever the rectifier got in trouble and was stationed in the Brig, Julian would on purposely do some-thing against the rule's so he could wind up in the brig as well.

My wife and I have attended local political events and in New Mexico where we live the people with values would not welcome some-one like Dave into the fold, that is all I have to say. As my mother always told people if you do not have to say anything nice you can sit on a cactus.
 

Tinami Amori

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Russians are among one of the groups that make up present-day people of Slavic origin. Obviously, Russia and the former Soviet Union have a more recently varied ethnic melting pot history.
No. There are two uses of the definition "Russian", a national/citizen of the Russian Federation, and "Russian" as an ethnic group. "Russians" as an ethnic group are not pure Slavs, it's a fact.

"Negroid" is also a faux manmade term, as are "Australoid, Caucasoid, and Mongoloid." All created to divide and categorize humans.
These groups and sub-groups do exist because they have different anthropometric characteristics.

I never said anything about France in regard to 'African-American,' or the faux term, 'Black.'
You suggested that "African American" is the right term to use for people who are of African origin. That's is not applicable in many cases, even for those who reside in USA. France was an example. Many european/French Black intellectuals preferred to be identified by their formal race name, and even called their cultural integration into Europen society "Negritude".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Négritude
 

aftershocks

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These groups and sub-groups do exist because they have different anthropometric characteristics.
Tinami Amori :blah:

Faux science, designed to divide humans. Just as you are an obvious troll enjoying your ignorant trolling pastime.

There are all kinds of manmade names, labels, terminology and cultural movements given a name throughout the history of time. Fodder for you obviously to continue your endless twisting and distracting.
 

Tinami Amori

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Tinami Amori :blah:

Faux science, designed to divide humans. Just as you are an obvious troll enjoying your ignorant trolling pastime
a) if anything, ethnic and racial specifics are important in research and medicine to help and save human lives.
b) if you don't believe in race and ethnicity, then you must be against affirmative action and programmes designed to assist specific ethnic and racial groups.
c) which means there should be no special praise, handling and consideration, which you suggested earlier, to Starr as "one of the rare and few Af-Am skaters"...right?
 

Tavi

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That's fine @Tavi. You can read it differently. In the context of what they said, and the way they said it, along with their gesturing and smirking, it's quite obvious they were mocking Starr's music choices. So the reference to Porgy & Bess while tangential, is still included in their overall mockery of 'African-American' music themes.

Thanks I appreciate your weighing in on your knowledge of opera. :)

And that's fine too about your take on how I interpreted their laughter and smirking as being 'derisive' and 'dismissive.' If they haven't edited it out yet, anyone is free to check the visuals and decide for themselves how they would characterize the gesturing, the laughter and the facial expressions. The excerpt I transcribed is word-for-word, as indicated.

I speak for myself only and always @Tavi. It's you making assumptions that simply by my having posted my own reactions I'm telling others how to react or respond. Hmmm, maybe you are doing a bit of editorializing of your own.
No, sorry, I’m not making assumptions about that. But thank you for your thoughts.
 

aftershocks

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No, sorry, I’m not making assumptions about that. But thank you for your thoughts.
Yep @Tavi, you are making assumptions when you suggest that my posting my reactions is telling others how to react. You and everyone else are reacting on your own in your own way. Everyone is free to think for themselves and are responsible for their own reactions and responses.
 

Mrs. P

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My two cents: The fact that Dave calls Starr's personal expression of her identity as a "novelty act" is problematic, even if you don't think about the rest of the conversation.

Look at the Twittersphere during Mae Bernice's performances at the Olympics. Or just check out Leslie Jones' tweets on it for that matter. The fact there was a black woman skating to Beyonce was empowering to a lot of black people watching. Starr could (and probably wants to) potentially provide that same feeling of empowerment in her skating. And you know what, if she wants to promote other black women/ women of color in her skating, GOOD FOR HER.

Beyonce was on the cover of Vogue. The cover was shot by a black photographer. Should we consider that a "novelty act?"

ETA: I think you can say Starr's FS needs work. I actually think it needs work. But it doesn't justify these kinds of comments IMO.
 
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aftershocks

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Wow. What a mess, this thread is (and I'm not talking about Dave's comments - which were not racist, btw).
Everyone can decide how they wish to characterize Dave's and Jonathan's remarks, or not. It's all semantics. IMO, they were both mocking Starr's music choices in a disrespectful and negative way that displayed bias on their part. And Dave also irresponsibly passed on unconfirmed hearsay involving Starr's mother that was also negative and showed disrespect. Not to mention all the other negative snarks and slights they uttered about other skaters.
 

gkelly

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There are all kinds of manmade names, labels, terminology and cultural movements given a name throughout the history of time.
All names, labels, and terminology are manmade, or womanmade as the case may be. Language does not exist in nature apart from humans making it.

Now, whether the concepts or categories various terms describe are accurate reflections of natural differences or not is a different question. But even when describing differences that are true to nature, the words used to describe them are always humanmade.
 

aftershocks

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All names, labels, and terminology are manmade, or womanmade as the case may be. Language does not exist in nature apart from humans making it.

Now, whether the concepts or categories various terms describe are accurate reflections of natural differences or not is a different question. But even when describing differences that are true to nature, the words used to describe them are always humanmade.
Sure, but the point is we are dealing with manmade social constructs created to divide people. And obviously language which is always going through change complicates any conversation, particularly when various parties do not agree on the same meaning of the terminology being used, and understanding is further complicated by terminology with vague or loaded meanings created to divide. That's not even accounting for myths, faux news, and hearsay presented as fact.

And to boot there are emotional reactions based on individual backgrounds and upbringings. None of this is any excuse for Dave's and Jonathan's snark-fest dissing Starr's music, programs, costumes, and skating.
 

MAXSwagg

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Why do you think it wasn't racist?
One, I’m a member of a minority race. I find more often than not the people who cry racism are those of non-minority races. But of course, even some minirities don’t even know what racism really is. Two, racism is the systematic oppression of minorities based on their race by individuals in a position of power (most often majority groups), those who can use a legal apparatus, to disenfranchise them, to terrorize them, to enslave them. Racism presumes a person or persons have access to a kind of systemic power that they can use to terrorize and oppress people based on their race. This is why, in most cases, minorities can’t be racist. Prejudiced or bigoted, of course.

Dave’s comments may be have been what some might deem ignorant or even prejudiced or bigoted but racist? Ha. No.
 

VIETgrlTerifa

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One, I’m a member of a minority race. I find more often than not the people who cry racism are those of non-minority races. But of course, even some minirities don’t even know what racism really is. Two, racism is the systematic oppression of minorities based on their race by individuals in a position of power (most often majority groups), those who can use a legal apparatus, to disenfranchise them, to terrorize them, to enslave them. Racism presumes a person or persons have access to a kind of systemic power that they can use to terrorize and oppress people based on their race. This is why, in most cases, minorities can’t be racist. Prejudiced or bigoted, of course.

Dave’s comments may be have been what some might deem ignorant or even prejudiced or bigoted but racist? Ha. No.
I think that's a fair assessment. You aren't disputing that Dave and Jonathan's comments can be seen as problematic and the way you described how it can be deemed by some matches the layman's definition of racism as opposed to the more academic definition which is what you described in your first paragraph.
 
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Dave’s comments may be have been what some might deem ignorant or even prejudiced or bigoted but racist? Ha. No.
That may very well be the case. However, the fact that a thread here about TSL is now dominated by complaints of his behavior, however you want to call it, whether ignorant, prejudiced, racist, should be an indication of the tone he sets on his show. Maybe he does not need or want sponsors anymore, but his tone is definitely a problem. He is also extremely thin skinned himself who would ban anyone who would say anything even slightly negative about him. He is the scared internet bully who is only strong in the comfort of his parent's basement. No thank you.
 

giselle23

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One, I’m a member of a minority race. I find more often than not the people who cry racism are those of non-minority races. But of course, even some minirities don’t even know what racism really is. Two, racism is the systematic oppression of minorities based on their race by individuals in a position of power (most often majority groups), those who can use a legal apparatus, to disenfranchise them, to terrorize them, to enslave them. Racism presumes a person or persons have access to a kind of systemic power that they can use to terrorize and oppress people based on their race. This is why, in most cases, minorities can’t be racist. Prejudiced or bigoted, of course.

Dave’s comments may be have been what some might deem ignorant or even prejudiced or bigoted but racist? Ha. No.
That's an interesting analysis, but I think most people would say that if someone--anyone--uses a racial slur or denigrates or stereotypes someone because of their race, they are racist. I haven't watched the latest TSL episode, but if all Dave did was refer to Starr as being black and questioning her (apparent--?) choice to use music by black artists, I don't think that is racist. I'm not sure what he meant by calling her a "novelty act." If he was referring to her race in calling her that, then I would say it is racist.
 

kwanatic

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Black/African-American woman weighing in here...:)

I didn't find what TSL said about Starr to be any more nasty than usual to be honest. I just went back and watched it and it seems like it was their normal run-of-the-mill shade/bitchiness. I didn't get any "racist" tone from it.:shuffle:

I do wonder if it's true that Starr's mother only wants her to skate to music by black artists. If so, that's her prerogative but judging by the other programs Starr has had over the years, I don't believe it. However, if that is the case then more power to them. They even named a number of black artists/soundtracks/music that would work well. I didn't see that as racist...just suggestions within the parameters they claim Starr's mother wants her to stay in. I still don't think that's true.

I did think assuming Starr is skating purely to have another viral video hit is pretty sh*tty.:rolleyes: That's basically saying she doesn't really want to be a great skater/champion, she just wants views on YouTube or Instagram. If that were the case she could do her SP to "In My Feelings" by Drake and do the "Kiki, do you love me?" dance that's going viral right now. That would do it! :lol:

I like Starr's SP to Summertime. There are some lovely moments in there and I think that will be a strong program for her. As for the African themed music, I'm all for displaying your roots proudly as long as it doesn't become a gimmick or a box...and that goes for everyone. The FS is okay I guess. I hope they add a little bit more detail to it before she gets to the GP. I do agree with Dave that Starr needs to work on her skating skills. Lots and lots of crossovers...I'd also add that her technique needs to be tweaked and her posture/carriage need work as well. Other than that I feel like she's a solid skater overall and can do well in the sport if she can continue to improve.

Dave is right...Starr is a novelty (def: the quality of being new, original or unusual) in the sense that you can count on one hand the number of black skaters in the entire figure skating world who are on the elite level. There are very few and there have been very few. I'd really love to see Starr succeed but she's going to have to earn it like everyone else. Just b/c she's black doesn't mean she's immune to criticism or critique.

I feel like some people are being a bit too sensitive. Just my two cents.
 

Rock2

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Dave’s comments may be have been what some might deem ignorant or even prejudiced or bigoted but racist? Ha. No.
I haven't been following this thread but I did watch TSL and heard the comments on Starr. Yes they approached a line but unsure if they crossed it. I don't think so, but open to having my mind changed.

I just want to weigh in on my opinion of racism and to support the captioned comment above.

I'm a white dude who considers myself a champion of racial equality and especially equality for all in business (my domain) -- which includes women as well as minorities. I do believe racism and bigotry continue to be a problem and must consistently be addressed.

Having said this, I caution anyone to not rush to label someone as racist without thinking through the issue. We're to a place now where if a white person criticizes a minority, someone is going to jump in and play the race card. Doing such a thing is to me counter-productive to the civil rights movement because such thoughtlessness works to disengage people more than engage them. Said another way, the willingness to call out racism at every borderline circumstance is not giving power to the issue; it's turning it into ambient noise that more and more people wish to no longer bother with.

Technically, for racism to be charged, two elements must be present:
1. An ENTIRE race or minority group must be called out. Not one person.
2. The content of what is said must be clear in that this race/group is inferior to others and/or should not be given equal treatment to other groups.

Without these two elements you have to think about a charge of racism. We somehow justify it by including some narrative surrounding the motivations or intent of the person making the offending comments, but that's not really objective and therefore should not be counted.

Against that backdrop, I do not consider Dave's comments racist. Having said that, he needs to think carefully about going down the path of a race-based discussion to make double-sure he's being objective.
 
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During my day's in the Navy there was a man stationed in my unit who's name was Julian, he looked and sounded just like "Dave" Lees. He was very enameled with an older and very muscly man in the next unit, I can't remember his name but everyone called him "the Rectifier." Whenever the rectifier got in trouble and was stationed in the Brig, Julian would on purposely do some-thing against the rule's so he could wind up in the brig as well.

My wife and I have attended local political events and in New Mexico where we live the people with values would not welcome some-one like Dave into the fold, that is all I have to say. As my mother always told people if you do not have to say anything nice you can sit on a cactus.
What do you mean "someone like Dave"?
 
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Im wondering if folks would be outraged if it was someone other then Dave and Jonathan made the comments about Star.
I would not have a problem with a black person making the comments. There is a different tone if someone of the same "novelty class" makes the same comments, and it would be naive to think otherwise. I would feel uneasy if two straight men went on a long rant about a gay skater like Rudy whose novelty was being openly gay. Suggesting that since he has done Village People and Ave Maria with a huge AIDS ribbon wrapped around him, and then laughing derogatively about his next musial choices being La Cage, Rent, whatever, would make me uncomfortable since I am a gay man. Unless you are part of the novelty, I believe it is best to not joke about it with stereotypes. YMMV.
 

overedge

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Sorry if this has been mentioned already, but the term "novelty act" is also problematic because of the long history of black performers in general being treated as comic relief or not as serious artists. Black perfomers were literally "novelty acts" in that they were expected just to sing a lighthearted song, or dance, or tell jokes as a break from the main action or to warm up the audience for the headliners. Think e.g. of the Jim Crow character in vaudeville, and black actors being cast only as maids/sidekicks.

Dave may have been trying to express the idea that Starr was different from the norm (for whatever reason he felt that was necessary to point out) but IMO he chose a really unfortunate phrase to characterize that.
 
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