The Skating Lesson 2018/2019

all_empty

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,795
Try channeling their inner Scott Hamilton? "What he did, he did well."

I can just imagine Jonathan saying, "she has EVERY quality you'd want in a ladies figure skater." LOL.

Being analytical (Dave's great +5/-5 series) is great. Being critical is part of analysis. But being mean, is well, mean.

Perhaps "unaesthically pleasing" instead of "ugly."

"Maximized her ability" instead of "lost cause" or "needs to quit."

When you litter your commentary with descriptors like "offensive," "atrocious," "hopeless" and then have a change of heart/mind about a skater, they comes across as even meaner.

But it's his/their show and they can choose whatever voice and content they want.
 

Foolhardy Ham Lint

Well-Known Member
Messages
6,277
I can just imagine Jonathan saying, "she has EVERY quality you'd want in a ladies figure skater." LOL.

Being analytical (Dave's great +5/-5 series) is great. Being critical is part of analysis. But being mean, is well, mean.

Perhaps "unaesthically pleasing" instead of "ugly."

"Maximized her ability" instead of "lost cause" or "needs to quit."

When you litter your commentary with descriptors like "offensive," "atrocious," "hopeless" and then have a change of heart/mind about a skater, they comes across as even meaner.

But it's his/their show and they can choose whatever voice and content they want.

The mistake we sometimes make with TSL is that they are not credentialed sports reporters. But unhinged fanboys who really should be taking their meds.
 

all_empty

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,795
So has this thread has now morphed into a discussion between people who don’t watch TSL but imagine what they might say about skater x - and then criticize them for it?

I'll take this as a dig at my previous comments.

Yes, I wrote my post BEFORE they did the WTT show. I watch TSL, and detailed how they've crafted narratives about specific skaters (namely Zagitova, Zhou, Tuk, Tennell) all season, and even prior to that.

As WTT was the final event of the season, I speculated how they would address these narratives given the strong finishes of the latter three athletes, specifically.

With Zhou, they've said in the past (and I'm paraphrasing) that it's been all jumps and he's limited in artistry and growth and, as now they've had a change of heart/opinion. Their prior criticism also included his team (similar to Zagitova) and it was super harsh.

They were happy for Tuk, but threw Samodurova (who in their Euros recap called an "interesting personality," "feisty" and "earned her [Worlds] spot") under the bus.

With Tennell, from Autumn Classic to Nationals to 4CCs to Worlds, it's been backhanded compliments (though an improvement on the outright nastiness about her costumes and programs from 2018). They were correct about her needing to do the 3Lz+3T instead of the 3Lz+3Lo, but the entire narrative (and yes, I watched all the aforementioned segments) has been negative, and predictably so. Their comments about her WTT skate (after a cursory "good job" comment at the start) fell in line.

As for Zagitova, others have mentioned how those predictions turned out.

Of course, performances at each event vary, skaters may improve throughout the season, etc. And that's the issue with creating a narrative, particularly a negative one. Everyone has (and is entitled to) having skaters they like or dislike, but the result is you come across as mean (i.e. Tennell, Zagitova) or wishy-washy (Zhou, Samodurova) to fit those narratives.
 

Tavi

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Messages
2,228
@all_empty it honestly wasn’t a dig at you in particular. It’s just that quite a few people who post in this thread don’t seem to watch or enjoy the show.

To be honest, I found the WTT show to be a little (okay extremely) full of digression, but not particularly mean. Dave and Jonathan are opinionated for sure, but most of their comments aren’t any worse than things I’ve read on on FSU.
 

overedge

Mayor of Carrot City
Messages
35,792
@all_empty it honestly wasn’t a dig at you in particular. It’s just that quite a few people who post in this thread don’t seem to watch or enjoy the show.

To be honest, I found the WTT show to be a little (okay extremely) full of digression, but not particularly mean. Dave and Jonathan are opinionated for sure, but most of their comments aren’t any worse than things I’ve read on on FSU.

As has been said multiple times before, FSU posters are not the same as people who are promoting themselves publicly via podcasts/websites as knowledgeable skating commentators. "They're no worse than FSU" is a false equivalency.
 

Tavi

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2,228
As has been said multiple times before, FSU posters are not the same as people who are promoting themselves publicly via podcasts/websites as knowledgeable skating commentators. "They're no worse than FSU" is a false equivalency.

I’m sorry, but I disagree. They are two very opinionated people who do this in their spare time. Just like people who post on FSU. I can’t imagine why anyone would think that it’s okay to make anonymous comments on a forum that wouldn’t be acceptable if they were showing their faces on YouTube. The fact that “it has been said multiple times” doesn’t make it truth.

Frankly, I found the recent In the Loop podcast discussing Worlds far worse than anything TSL has done. In that podcast, the hosts (who rotate with each episode) spent quite a bit of time on the Mariah-Eunsoo “incident” and it was very clear that despite the semblance of a factual, reasoned, unbiased discussion, it was anything but. It was particularly bad, in my opinion, because In the Loop did an excellent, balanced, and well researched special episode on the John Coughlin / SafeSport situation, and this was not at all on that level.
 

Finley

Member
Messages
29
@all_empty it honestly wasn’t a dig at you in particular. It’s just that quite a few people who post in this thread don’t seem to watch or enjoy the show.

To be honest, I found the WTT show to be a little (okay extremely) full of digression, but not particularly mean. Dave and Jonathan are opinionated for sure, but most of their comments aren’t any worse than things I’ve read on on FSU.

I'm literally torn. I really enjoy the shows where they interview skaters and coaches. But I am too thin-skinned or overly sensitive to enjoy their comments about certain skaters in their recaps. It just makes me cringe.

That said, it is their show. I just wish for a little less cruelty disguised as snark from them.
 

Tavi

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,228
I'm literally torn. I really enjoy the shows where they interview skaters and coaches. But I am too thin-skinned or overly sensitive to enjoy their comments about certain skaters in their recaps. It just makes me cringe.

That said, it is their show. I just wish for a little less cruelty disguised as snark from them.

And you have every right to feel that way! I don’t personally feel they are cruel, but we all experience things differently, so I’m not going to say you’re wrong, just that I see it in another way.

Today our server and phones were down at work for an extended period of time, and at one point I found myself watching quite a few clips of Seth Meyers’ “A Closer Look.” They were incredibly snarky and - to me - extremely funny. So I guess maybe I’m just more comfortable with snark than some people.
 

muffinplus

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Messages
4,321
Zagitova wins Worlds! Jonathan is not pleased. "What did she really do to move the sport forward?" More than you are doing, that's for damned sure. He then compares her unfavorably with Medvedeva for not being a 'true disciple of the sport.' Since Med was willing to move to Brian and make improvements.

He sounds extremely pretentious sometimes..
 

Finley

Member
Messages
29
He sounds extremely pretentious sometimes..

Not mention completely unrealistic. She is 16. As if she is going to tell her coaches, parents, grandmother and the RusFed (in that order) I must leave and go abroad to pursue the true artistic side of this sport! The muse calls!
 

overedge

Mayor of Carrot City
Messages
35,792
I’m sorry, but I disagree. They are two very opinionated people who do this in their spare time. Just like people who post on FSU. I can’t imagine why anyone would think that it’s okay to make anonymous comments on a forum that wouldn’t be acceptable if they were showing their faces on YouTube. The fact that “it has been said multiple times” doesn’t make it truth.

This is like the "but Obama" argument that the Trumpanzees haul out every time the Big Orange Baby gets criticized. Trump did something wrong! But Obama did [insert name of usually unrelated action here]!

The fact that the TSLers have daytime jobs has nothing to do with the appropriateness, or lack of appropriateness, of their comments. They put themselves forward as skating commentators. From the YouTube channel description: "TSL will unite the skating community and encourage its members to engage in stimulating discussion, while providing the most in-depth interviews with the sport's greatest stars and experts in their field, profiles on today's top skaters and coaches, weekly 'This and That' news shows, event recaps and blog posts."

If they present themselves as this quasi-professional venture, they should be called out when their comments are inappropriate, regardless of whether similarly mean things are being said elsewhere.
 

Tavi

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,228
This is like the "but Obama" argument that the Trumpanzees haul out every time the Big Orange Baby gets criticized. Trump did something wrong! But Obama did [insert name of usually unrelated action here]!

The fact that the TSLers have daytime jobs has nothing to do with the appropriateness, or lack of appropriateness, of their comments. They put themselves forward as skating commentators. From the YouTube channel description: "TSL will unite the skating community and encourage its members to engage in stimulating discussion, while providing the most in-depth interviews with the sport's greatest stars and experts in their field, profiles on today's top skaters and coaches, weekly 'This and That' news shows, event recaps and blog posts."

If they present themselves as this quasi-professional venture, they should be called out when their comments are inappropriate, regardless of whether similarly mean things are being said elsewhere.

First, please don’t compare anything I say to statements by Trump supporters. I’m not one, and I’m sure you could have found a less inflammatory comparison.

Second, my point was not that TSL shouldn’t be criticized but that the very people who call out TSL for their allegedly inappropriate comments sometimes make similar comments themselves, often in this very thread.

Your argument is that Dave and Jonathan should be held to a different standard than anonymous posters on the internet because they are “promoting themselves publicly via podcasts/websites as knowledgeable skating commentators” and TSL is a “quasi professional venture.”

I disagree. To my knowledge, there’s no code of ethics that quasi professional skating commentators are bound to adhere to.

Simply put, I think everyone should be held to the same high standard, whether they’re offering their opinions publicly, face to face, or in written comments on the Internet - and anyone who holds skating commentators or would be skating commentators to a particular standard of informed, factual, unbiased, even-handed, constructive, non gossipy, politically correct statements should ask the same of themselves. That’s really all I have to say.
 

Plisskin

Active Member
Messages
44
This thread can never go past 1 page without the same criticism and snark (snark that they ironically don’t like about
these two) over and over again.
 

Tinami Amori

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Messages
20,156
This is like the "but Obama" argument that the Trumpanzees haul out every time the Big Orange Baby gets criticized. Trump did something wrong! But Obama did [insert name of usually unrelated action here]!
But the problem is that the Obamanables are not willing to see the truth about all the rotten shit Obama did to the country. How can you claim objectivity when there is none on your side..;)
 

bardtoob

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14,559
But the problem is that the Obamanables are not willing to see the truth about all the rotten shit Obama did to the country. How can you claim objectivity when there is none on your side..;)

Please list those bad things he did ... I am objectively listening as somebody that went from working at a behemoth business with medium salaries and lots of job security to a start-up/small business where individual profit making performance is compensated.
 

bardtoob

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Messages
14,559
Actually I think the two of you need go go off the PI folder. Pretty please.

No ... I often hear conservatives complain about Obama ruining the country but they can't say why. I really want to know the list, and Tinami is the mostly likely person to be able to articulate it.
 

Seerek

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Messages
5,780
I kind of wished they'd give credit to the YouTube accounts for which they've extracted footage for their recaps and or/interviews (several FSU members among them).
 

Prancer

Chitarrista
Staff member
Messages
56,063
No ... I often hear conservatives complain about Obama ruining the country but they can't say why. I really want to know the list, and Tinami is the mostly likely person to be able to articulate it.

And she can articulate it in PI or in a PM to you. The reason PI exists is so that people don't have to be subjected to political talk in threads like this one.

So yes, you do need to take it elsewhere. You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here.
 

bardtoob

Well-Known Member
Messages
14,559
And she can articulate it in PI or in a PM to you. The reason PI exists is so that people don't have to be subjected to political talk in threads like this one.

So yes, you do need to take it elsewhere. You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here.

OK, elsewhere ... But the conversation I wanted is way less political and uncomfortable than talking about TLS :p:2faced::EVILLE:#ClownCar
 

Tinami Amori

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Messages
20,156
Actually I think the two of you need go go off the PI folder. Pretty please.
That comment is correct!!! but should have appeared right after when a mad deranged lefty called Trump voters "Trumpanzeez". How long would it take to react if Obama voters would be called "Obamarigoneezze"?

Very bias to call for "stop" only after someone replies to obviously idiotic democrats' insults.
 

skatfan

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Messages
8,372
That comment is correct!!! but should have appeared right after when a mad deranged lefty called Trump voters "Trumpanzeez". How long would it take to react if Obama voters would be called "Obamarigoneezze"?

Very bias to call for "stop" only after someone replies to obviously idiotic democrats' insults.

Nice try Tinami, I was simply hoping things would die out. Next time you can PM me to intervene earlier if you want. Lol.
 

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