The major ISU rule changes now ...limits to quads and reduction of bonus for backloading jumps

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

I think this is so major (in a good way) I think would be cool to discuss in a new, separate thread!!

Just reading these new major changes..OMG, yes! limits to quads, and no backloading

Rule changes seek to restore balance to programs
Delegates at ISU congress vote to reduce quads, restrict backloading


http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2018/06/14/281232048

"No longer can skaters put all of their jumps in the second half of their programs, as Olympic champion Alina Zagitova of Russia did last season."

1. Allowed repetition of only one type of quad rather than being able to repeat two

2. Ended the practice of putting all or nearly all jumping passes in the second half of the short program and free skate

3. Quashed an urgent proposal made by the Netherlands to raise the senior age minimum from 15 to 17.

4. Updated Scale of Values for Quads, Triples and Throw Quads

 

[once_upon]

I think those are positive changes for the sport.

 

[Wyliefan]

I'm just glad they threw out the age proposal. It wasn't going to do anybody any good, and it was just silly.

 

[AxelAnnie]

WOW! Utterly amazing!

 

[NinjaTurtles]

Title is misleading, non? A program can still be choreographed to have all the jumping passes in the second half, they just won't get bonus points for all.

 

[kwanfan1818]

From the text of the article, they didn't prohibit backloading: they took away the bonus incentive for doing so. They're not taking away tech points for backloading, nor is there a mandatory deduction or lower PCS component value in CH, for example, for backloading.

So no skater has to change the program from what was choreographed: they just won't receive bonus credit for as many jumps.

 

[Tinami Amori]

"No longer can skaters put all of their jumps in the second half of their programs, as Olympic champion Alina Zagitova of Russia did last season."

well, that works well for Zagitova.... She already got her Olympic, GPF and European Golds, and all the Junior Golds the year before with 0:7 FS.

Nobody was able to do what she did, and now nobody will be able to do it or to say they beat Zagitova with the most difficult jump layout.... And it's good for her in the upcoming cycle, now that she is a bit older, taller, and will be skating against younger stars from Russia and Japan, which are transferring to "seniors" this season and next.

 

[rfisher]

And the same people who whine about backloading will whine about front loading. The skaters and coaches will read the rules and the best skaters will do their best to maximize their points and will win. Same as always. Those who can will and those who can't won't.

 

[DimaToe]

Well a cumulative points system will always be about who “whores” it out best. At least the code whoring will be a little different now which will keep things interesting. I like the changes. Looking to see what kind of skating will get the big medals during the next Olympic cycle and if it will be much different than what it has been under the old rules.

 

[rfisher]

Well a cumulative points system will always be about who “whores” it out best. At least the code whoring will be a little different now which will keep things interesting. I like the changes. Looking to see what kind of skating will get the big medals during the next Olympic cycle and if it will be much different than what it has been under the old rules.

I'm betting it will not

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Prior to this rule change, it makes me sad that beautifully - constructed programs from the likes of Higuchi, Miyahara, Mihara, and Kihara, were overlooked in favour of backloaded nonsense from Team Eteri.

 

[misskarne]

These are negative changes for the sport and I don't see how any could see it otherwise. Faster, higher, stronger, except whoops, too many Russian girls are winning and Canada, Japan and the US aren't happy so we better change some rules.

And the same people who whine about backloading will whine about front loading. The skaters and coaches will read the rules and the best skaters will do their best to maximize their points and will win. Same as always. Those who can will and those who can't won't.

Precisely.

Well a cumulative points system will always be about who “whores” it out best. At least the code whoring will be a little different now which will keep things interesting. I like the changes. Looking to see what kind of skating will get the big medals during the next Olympic cycle and if it will be much different than what it has been under the old rules.

I despise this phrase "code whoring". THIS IS A SPORT. THE GOAL IS TO GET THE MOST POINTS. Skaters who do that aren't "whoring", they're just fcuking smarter and better athletes.

I think it's pathetic that we're at a point where we see an incredible athletic achievement like an 0-7 program and instead of celebrating and having other countries say "wow, how can we change up our training regimes so that our skaters are capable of this?" we get "WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH CODE WHORING STOP THOSE EVIL RUSSIAN GIRLS!".

I also think it's pathetic that we're restricting quad repetition. I would rather watch a skater do two pretty quad toes and two pretty quad Salchows than a skater doing messy UR quad Lutzes/flips/loop/salchow/toe because they can't repeat the jump they can actually do so they're just going to cram the BV without actually being able to do it properly.

The only good thing about the quad repetition rule as it currently stands is that it's likely to make it glaringly obvious which men have bad triple Axels.

 

[Willin]

@misskarne Why so bitter? Also why saying scaling things back is bad for the sport? Numerous sports have made adjustments to make sure their athletes aren't going too hard (swimming with suit technology and pool depth, american football currently mulling rule changes, basketball adding in flagrant fouls). The changes may not be popular, but they didn't ultimately affect the sport.

Also, why think this is targeting "evil Russian girls"? As @rfisher points out, people complain both about front and backloading. This rule change is about balance as more and more athletes try to backload, not about targeting any one nation or coach in particular.

And the same people who whine about backloading will whine about front loading. The skaters and coaches will read the rules and the best skaters will do their best to maximize their points and will win. Same as always. Those who can will and those who can't won't.

ITA with the last three sentences, but I don't agree as much with the first one. Yes, we will complain if someone frontloads, but there's still some bonus for doing three jumps in the second half of the program so I doubt skaters will be frontloading to the same extent they did before the rule (ie. every single jumping pass in the first half of the program).

 

[manhn]

How is the limit on quads harming Russia? If anything, it harms the US.

 

[misskarne]

@misskarne Why so bitter? Also why saying scaling things back is bad for the sport? Numerous sports have made adjustments to make sure their athletes aren't going too hard (swimming with suit technology and pool depth, american football currently mulling rule changes, basketball adding in flagrant fouls). The changes may not be popular, but they didn't ultimately affect the sport.

Why so willing to accept rule changes made in petty jealousy and fear? By all means, propose rule changes that are grounded in study and logic, for reasons that are aimed to protect. But anyone who tries to claim that the anti-backloading rules were proposed to protect skaters is a short-sighted idiot.

Also, why think this is targeting "evil Russian girls"? As @rfisher points out, people complain both about front and backloading. This rule change is about balance as more and more athletes try to backload, not about targeting any one nation or coach in particular.

Please, Willin, I know you are not this stupid. We just had a season where the two dominant ladies were doing 2-5 and 0-7 layouts, and both were Russians, and backloading is trained into them as Juniors. And suddenly the proposals for anti-backloading rules both come from Canada and Japan. How else can this be seen other than petty bitterness and jealousy that their own skaters cannot do the same?

It is precisely the same as the "urgent proposal" that came out seeking to raise the age to 17. In a season where we crowned a 15 year old Olympic champion and a 13 year old Junior World Champion landing quads. Puh-lease. They could not be any more obvious.

 

[Tavi]

These are negative changes for the sport and I don't see how any could see it otherwise. Faster, higher, stronger, except whoops, too many Russian girls are winning and Canada, Japan and the US aren't happy so we better change some rules.



Precisely.



I despise this phrase "code whoring". THIS IS A SPORT. THE GOAL IS TO GET THE MOST POINTS. Skaters who do that aren't "whoring", they're just fcuking smarter and better athletes.

I think it's pathetic that we're at a point where we see an incredible athletic achievement like an 0-7 program and instead of celebrating and having other countries say "wow, how can we change up our training regimes so that our skaters are capable of this?" we get "WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH CODE WHORING STOP THOSE EVIL RUSSIAN GIRLS!".

I also think it's pathetic that we're restricting quad repetition. I would rather watch a skater do two pretty quad toes and two pretty quad Salchows than a skater doing messy UR quad Lutzes/flips/loop/salchow/toe because they can't repeat the jump they can actually do so they're just going to cram the BV without actually being able to do it properly.

The only good thing about the quad repetition rule as it currently stands is that it's likely to make it glaringly obvious which men have bad triple Axels.

Umm. Hasn’t there always been a limit on the number of triple/quad jumps you can repeat? As in, last year, you could choose two triples, two quads, or one of each? So now you can’t choose two quads. How is that such a huge step backwards? Maybe “they” value the 3A - a jump you’ve raved about plenty as executed by Max and Josh - and want to preserve it.

As to backloading, the third member of your “Golden Trio” has frequently done 2-6 programs - see, eg, Tristan and Piano. So one less backloaded jump than Alina. I have never, ever, heard you or anyone else talk about what an incredible athletic achievement it was for him to backload like that, only that it was a way for him to make up points. And for all the criticism I’ve heard about Jason, his programs, and his demeanor in the kiss n cry, I can’t recall anyone ever saying that his programs were unbalanced or boring at the beginning because all the jumps were pushed to the end. Alina, Jason, and everyone else can still push most or all of their jumps to the second half if they want, and people can still celebrate their incredible athletic achievement- they just won’t get an extra 10% on all of those jumps - just like they currently don’t get them on spins or footwork.

 

[misskarne]

As to backloading, the third member of your “Golden Trio” has frequently done 2-6 programs - see, eg, Tristan and Piano. So one less backloaded jump than Alina. I have never, ever, heard you or anyone else talk about what an incredible athletic achievement it was for him to backload like that, only that it was a way for him to make up points. And for all the criticism I’ve heard about Jason, his programs, and his demeanor in the kiss n cry, I can’t recall anyone ever saying that his programs were unbalanced or boring at the beginning because all the jumps were pushed to the end. Alina, Jason, and everyone else can still push most or all of their jumps to the second half if they want, and people can still celebrate their incredible athletic achievement- they just won’t get an extra 10% on all of those jumps - just like they currently don’t get them on spins or footwork.

I generally don't describe it as an athletic achievement because I like to think I'm having a discussion with reasonably intelligent people for whom the athletic achievement part doesn't need to be pointed out. Apparently, I underestimated skating fans in that regard. Anyone with a brain knows that a backloaded layout is an athletic achievement.

And yes, people don't complain about Jason's backloading. But they complained about Max's, when he first arrived doing a 2-6 layout in WSS, and tore it apart as one of the reasons he was supposedly an awful champion. Apparently, backloading is only acceptable when the skater is an "artist" making up points. Funny how the way you're "boxed" by the fandom paints how you're described, isn't it?

And they complain about Alina's, and they complain about Evgenia's, because they're winning, because they're doing something the others wish they had thought of first, because they're doing it better than anyone else.

I have always said that I believe every element should get a 10% bonus in the second half, not just the jumps. Anyone who thinks it's not hard has clearly never skated a day in their life.

 

[Willin]

@misskarne So what do you say about all the other skaters trying to backload? The Japanese skaters? The young up and coming US skaters? Canadian skaters (I believe Meagan talked about using this strategy)? Skaters with no quads or lower levels of difficulty who used backloading to make up some of those points?

I think what happened was that backloading was a concern they didn't think would actually lead to such extreme imbalance. 2-6 and 3-5 layouts are very common these days, but don't look so jarringly imbalanced that it didn't create an urgent need for change. I think once the ISU realized that people were actually capable of doing every pass in the second half they felt more of a sense of urgency about getting it done ASAP.

 

[misskarne]

@misskarne So what do you say about all the other skaters trying to backload? The Japanese skaters? The young up and coming US skaters? Canadian skaters (I believe Meagan talked about using this strategy)? Skaters with no quads or lower levels of difficulty who used backloading to make up some of those points?

I think what happened was that backloading was a concern they didn't think would actually lead to such extreme imbalance. 2-6 and 3-5 layouts are very common these days, but don't look so jarringly imbalanced that it didn't create an urgent need for change. I think once the ISU realized that people were actually capable of doing every pass in the second half they felt more of a sense of urgency about getting it done ASAP.

I say LET THEM! Let them go for it! Let them take the risk! If they can, that's great!

Literally one Senior skater was doing an 0-7. One. And not only that, but the way the music was cut and the program presented was that the layout actually made sense. There shouldn't have been a "sense of urgency about getting done ASAP" because it is not a problem. The fact that this is viewed as a problem is what is wrong! It is not a problem!

 

[Tavi]

I generally don't describe it as an athletic achievement because I like to think I'm having a discussion with reasonably intelligent people for whom the athletic achievement part doesn't need to be pointed out. Apparently, I underestimated skating fans in that regard. Anyone with a brain knows that a backloaded layout is an athletic achievement.

And yes, people don't complain about Jason's backloading. But they complained about Max's, when he first arrived doing a 2-6 layout in WSS, and tore it apart as one of the reasons he was supposedly an awful champion. Apparently, backloading is only acceptable when the skater is an "artist" making up points. Funny how the way you're "boxed" by the fandom paints how you're described, isn't it?

And they complain about Alina's, and they complain about Evgenia's, because they're winning, because they're doing something the others wish they had thought of first, because they're doing it better than anyone else.

I have always said that I believe every element should get a 10% bonus in the second half, not just the jumps. Anyone who thinks it's not hard has clearly never skated a day in their life.

You talk about “artists” in such a scathing way, it’s as if they add nothing of value to skating - or life, actually - at all.

 

[DimaToe]

@misskarne you are welcome to interpret my words however you wish to but never did I make “code whoring”= anti Russia, so please don’t try and twist my words. Thanks

 

[rfisher]

I despise the term code whoring. It's demeaning, insulting, and stupid. The whole point of a competition is to win, otherwise skaters should just do shows. Moreover, the term is almost always used with female skaters, some of whom are children. And it's always used to denigrate skaters a poster doesn't like. Every competitor does their best to win. A few are just more successful.

 

[Lizziebeth]

I won't miss the days when every long program seemed to start with the three most difficult jump passes - it was so predictable. The jumps are highlights and I'd prefer to see them mixed with other elements. ISU did not outlaw backloading, just took the bonus away from what they considered excessive backloading. I agree that the music used by Zagitova made the jumps in the second half very exciting when she did them well. But the first half of the program was devoid of much interest with no jumps at all - maybe because Zagitova is not yet at the highest level of skating skills (IMHO of course).

 

[npavel]

I'm very happy they took away the extra bonus for backloading all the jumps. It should be a balanced program and not one who begins in the second half of the music. The bonus was ment to be for balanced programs and there should be a detraction in components for not having it

 

[misskarne]

You talk about “artists” in such a scathing way, it’s as if they add nothing of value to skating - or life, actually - at all.

Funny, I find the fandom and judges in general tend to be much more forgiving of a skater who has been deemed "artistic" but may be deficient technically, than they are of a skater who has been deemed a "jumper" but may not meet the narrow-minded definition of artistry this sport seems to hold.

@misskarne you are welcome to interpret my words however you wish to but never did I make “code whoring”= anti Russia, so please don’t try and twist my words. Thanks

I wasn't objecting to your use of "code whoring" as anti-Russian, I despise the term in general, exactly like rfisher below:

I despise the term code whoring. It's demeaning, insulting, and stupid. The whole point of a competition is to win, otherwise skaters should just do shows. Moreover, the term is almost always used with female skaters, some of whom are children. And it's always used to denigrate skaters a poster doesn't like. Every competitor does their best to win. A few are just more successful.

 

[Spun Silver]

The change that jumps out most to me is the reduction in value for a jump that isn't even possible yet as far as we know, the quad axel. It will be worth less than a quad lutz was last season. And all the quads are closer in value to triples. Those changes dont make sense to me. I'm OK with the rest.

 

[aftershocks]

... they complained about Max's, when he first arrived doing a 2-6 layout in WSS, and tore it apart as one of the reasons he was supposedly an awful champion

Ah, I see this is still about Max Aaron (even as Max has acquitted himself so admirably in the final moments of his skating career and celebrated moving on to the rest and most important times of his life).


Oh well, that's figure skating folks, blind leading the blind among feds and ISU, while fans carp, and the skaters continue to do the best they can under numerous limitations and constraints, while still aiming high and often going above and beyond in pursuit of their dreams...

For me the new rules limiting the men's programs by 30 seconds and the overall increase of GOE options to +5 are going to bear some watching to see ultimate impacts. Those were two changes IMO that were ill-considered and unnecessary.

I'm not sure about some of the nit-picking changes for pairs either. That is except for the relaxing of restrictions on moves we normally only see in exhibitions (which might prove to add excitement if incorporated into some pairs programs).

 

[Coco]

Code-whoring specifically means doing something in your programs strictly for the purpose of earning greater base value or GOE. This 'something' will be anti-aesthetic and anti-musical and ...either because judges don't care or because fans don't know how to divine PCS...will appear to result in a higher score. Slutskaya's upright change of edge spins come to mind, lol.

Code-whoring doesn't mean any effort to increase your base value or GOE, just those efforts which visually detract from the program.

Zagitova's FS worked from an artistic perspective, certainly as well as anyone else's. So I would not say her putting all her jumps in the bonus time was an example of 'code-whoring.' But I can think of several free skates where, right at the halfway point, the skater goes end to end to end to end, doing 4 jumping passes with minimal transitions, without showing any indication the music's tempo had changed or anything like that. That is code-whoring.

 

[babayaga]

I despise the term code whoring. It's demeaning, insulting, and stupid. The whole point of a competition is to win, otherwise skaters should just do shows. Moreover, the term is almost always used with female skaters, some of whom are children. And it's always used to denigrate skaters a poster doesn't like. Every competitor does their best to win. A few are just more successful.

I agree. Code whoring term is just so incredibly disrespectful. 0-7 program was an athletic achievement, no other senior skater was able to do it and now no one else will. On the other hand, I am curious to see how the new rule will work out since now skaters will actually have to put combo jumps at the end to maximize the bonus points, which is not only hard but risky.

 

[aftershocks]

The change that jumps out most to me is the reduction in value for a jump that isn't even possible yet as far as we know, the quad axel. It will be worth less than a quad lutz was last season.

That's definitely a head-scratcher, but I suppose remember who we are dealing with: ISU and country-fed politics...