The Dance Hall 9: Bring the Bling or No Beijing 2021-2022

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PRlady said:
All I can think of is Allison and Saulius plus Zoe and whatshisface. Are there a lot of Senior teams with older women? I guess Stellato and her Canadian partner as well.
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Christina Carreira is around 10 months older than Anthony Ponomarenko, Cathy Reed was 2 years older than Chris Reed, Alexa Knierem is just over a year older than Brandon Frazier.

I just find it a weird rule - everyone is different and people should have the opportunity to choose partners without the age limit. Women in this sport are already put in a difficult position when it comes to power in partnering so I don't understand why taking one problem away from them is such a big deal for the ISU.
 
I'd be fine with the change. It makes sense for the guys to stay in juniors until they are physically developed, and it makes no sense for the girls to get dumped because the guys don't have to move up yet. Teams that are ready could move up, and there probably wouldn't be so much premature splitting.

Along with this change, I think the point disparity between the juniors & seniors really needs to be addressed. The junior athletes need to be able to earn their way onto the GP via the same means as skaters in any other discipline. It's not fair that it is now impossible for junior athletes to earn qualifying SB scores, just because the senior athletes have a bunch of choreographic elements. Plus the RD selections are different this season so that impairs junior teams trying to earn world standing points via competing at both levels, something that has always been hard for junior dancers but had been developing as a pathway since the FD scoring disparity grew so much.
 
thvu said:
I'm at work just skimming right now, but LOLOLOL at the GOE for the Choreographic Rhythm Sequence. The max GOE is 7.50 points. That's absolutely absurd.

The new Pattern Style D step sequence has a Level 4 Base Value of 9.45 points and a Max GOE of 5.59 points.

SIGH. JUST SIGH. :wall:
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my jaw actually dropped
 
thvu said:
I'm at work just skimming right now, but LOLOLOL at the GOE for the Choreographic Rhythm Sequence. The max GOE is 7.50 points. That's absolutely absurd.

The new Pattern Style D step sequence has a Level 4 Base Value of 9.45 points and a Max GOE of 5.59 points.

SIGH. JUST SIGH. :wall:
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The pattern step is definitely too high, compared to current values. With the choreo rhythm sequence substituting for the pattern, the values are a bit lower (compared to this past season)....I agree that a choreo sequence is not the same as a prescribed pattern and I don't think the pattern should have been removed, but the numbers aren't completely crazy given those parameters. I agree that the values are high but if you give them lower values, unless you raise the values of the other elements, you end up with a situation where GOE and PCS make up a larger share of the score compared to technical skill.
 
Debbie S said:
The pattern step is definitely too high, compared to current values. With the choreo rhythm sequence substituting for the pattern, the values are a bit lower (compared to this past season)....I agree that a choreo sequence is not the same as a prescribed pattern and I don't think the pattern should have been removed, but the numbers aren't completely crazy given those parameters. I agree that the values are high but if you give them lower values, unless you raise the values of the other elements, you end up with a situation where GOE and PCS make up a larger share of the score compared to technical skill.
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My issue is the distribution of TES, in terms of Levels vs GOE.

Looking at the Rhythm Dance from the last season to the upcoming season, The MAX TES will rise from 56.02 to 57.05. That increase by itself isn't worrisome. What I worry about is the points teams can gain from levels (Technical Panel) vs the points teams can gain from GOE (Judges). Last season in the Rhythm Dance, the difference between All Level 4 elements and all Base Level elements was 21.80 points, and Max GOE possible was 19.62 points. For the upcoming season, the difference between All Level 4 elements and all Base Level elements is now just 18.45 points, an over 3 point drop. The Max GOE possible will go from 19.62 points to 24.71 points. An over 4 point gain!

This puts so much more power in the hands of judges in deciding results, increasing the trend to move power away from the Technical Panel and into the hands of judges since the period post the 2017-2018 season.

Looking at the Free Dance, it isn't as drastic. The L4 - Base Level difference went from 32.03 to 32.04, and Max GOE from 34.25 to 34.96.

So, to me, the max values of TES vs PCS don't really matter. I'm looking at the relative values and scores between teams, and potentially who will decide those - the panel or the judges. The last rework put so much more power in the hands of judges. This new rework puts even more power in the hands of judges, but now it's happening in the Rhythm Dance to a level that I find to be absurd. The Rhythm Dance is turning into another Free Dance and no longer acts as an equalizer. The reputation GOE teams earn for the Choreographic Rhythm Sequence is going to further devalue skating skills in Ice Dance.

Edit: Just saw that there's now a Base Value and GOE difference for the Sequential Twizzles in the Rhythm Dance, and the Synchronized Twizzles in the Free Dance. The Sequential twizzles are now worth more, by half a point in base value, and 0.36 points in GOE (as they are only allowed one step in between the first two twizzles). I've changed the point totals to reflect that.
 
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Maybe they shouldn't even bother with levels anymore and and just judge everything by GOE and PCS. They really don't want the tech. panel to have the power to determine results anymore and they want the balance to weigh much more heavily in favor of the judges. That's the direction ice dance judging has been going in ever since the 2017-18 season ended. Maybe before when they added choreo elements. First it was just one in the 2015-16 season, then it was two for both the 2016-17 and 2017-18 seasons. Then afterwards it was three but then a whole bunch of changes as well like lowering the differentiation in points between levels, increasing GOE, etc. Now it's even worse....
 
Oh, I agree we should balance the scoring weight between the judges and tech panel, not give too much power to the judges. How would people propose valuing the choreo rhythm seq relative to the other RD elements?
 
Okay this is probably me being a newbie, but I thought aside from the choreographic elements GOE couldn’t exceed 50%?
 
leilaofpaper said:
Okay this is probably me being a newbie, but I thought aside from the choreographic elements GOE couldn’t exceed 50%?
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Singles and pairs, yes. Dance has a different scale (and different technical committee altogether) for elements, and it's been the subject of many discussions in the last Olympic cycle as to whether the positive GOE is too much of a boost.
 
tony said:
Singles and pairs, yes. Dance has a different scale (and different technical committee altogether) for elements, and it's been the subject of many discussions in the last Olympic cycle as to whether the positive GOE is too much of a boost.
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This explains why I could never make sense of dance scoring, thanks.
 
The only way I can see this working if the judges really make the skaters work for the +5. I would argue that for all of next season, no judge should give out a +5 for these new elements, until a team really starts hitting it out of the park. After a year of experimentation, with the judges ONLY giving medium GOE to the teams that are really exceptional, so that the following year we really do get creative development in the rhythm sequence.

But yeah, I can't help thinking that the ridiculously specific scale of values for dance are all to mask the fact that a lot of these numbers are just completely arbitrary. Why is there a difference in twizzle base value in the RD and the FD? For example, Lvl 4 in the RD is 3.67, FD is 3.42. Are the twizzles really harder in the RD because of the required hold in the FD?

If you really look at any of the scores for the other disciplines, at some point you get a lot of questions as well, but I would argue there is at least a clearer standard based on difficulty. For Ice Dance, they aren't creating new ways to get more points through difficulty, they are just arbitrarily increasing the value of elements while decreasing the difficulty.
 
thvu said:
I'm at work just skimming right now, but LOLOLOL at the GOE for the Choreographic Rhythm Sequence. The max GOE is 7.50 points. That's absolutely absurd.

The new Pattern Style D step sequence has a Level 4 Base Value of 9.45 points and a Max GOE of 5.59 points.

SIGH. JUST SIGH. %:wall:
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This is beyond terrible, what are they thinking. GOE scoring is already 80% reputation-based, so this will be absolutely destructive for the scoring. I thought the scoring for choreographic elements was bad with BV of 1.10 and max GOE of 4.15 points but this is worse. And as the choreographic element showed us, having GOE scoring be that high helps teams with mediocre skating skills like Fear/Gibson climb the ranks and it also rewards top teams for safe choregraphic elements just because of choregraphic elements are scored based on reputation - following scoring live you can often see choregraphic elements getting these GOEs: +1.66 (all +2), +2.49 (all +3), +3.22 (all +4), +4.15 (all +5) and there are clear grouping of teams that fall under each category - teams like C/P, L/L, R/A will get mostly +2, teams like FB/S, H/B will get mostly +3, teams like S/B, H/D, C/B, G/F will get mostly +4, S/K will get some +4 and some +5, and P/C will get only +5. It became so bad that you can basically call it before the skaters even skate.
And with all my respect to P/C, their choregraphic elements were always pretty basic and safe especially compared to other top teams, yet they kept getting max GOE for them which creates an (underserving imo) scoring gap of 2-3 points between them and the rest of the top teams that can't really close even when they make a mistake. The same comments apply to S/K too.
Ice dance scoring is a mess.
 
They should go back to -3 to +3 GOE for ice dance. Those 2022-2023 rule changes will make ice dance more predictable and less exciting as a sport but I don't think they will make more interesting or popular.
 
If you look at Sequential Twizzles in the Rhythm Dance and Synchronized Twizzles in the Free Dance, their base values are different but the base value differences between levels remain exactly the same. As long as a dance team doesn't completely miss an element (and therefore not even get Base Level), nothing has really changed about how it differentiates between teams.

I reckon this is a carefully calibrated move that may have little to do with the relative difficulty of the types of twizzles relative to themselves or to other elements... With an actual pattern gone from the RD but replaced by the lower scoring choreographic rhythm sequence, they needed to inflate scores of other elements to keep scoring ranges about the same as previous years with BV increases in other elements. (e.g. to allow PBs, WRs and the like) Inflating the base value and GOE of the Pattern Dance Type Step Sequence seems to be along similar lines. It is a bit funny that the difficulty of the RD was lowered but the general scoring range remains roughly the same.

Speaking of the PSt, though, the inflation of its base value makes it potentially one of the most discriminating element between Ice Dance teams in terms of scoring, higher than the (legit) step sequences, in fact.

Score difference between Level B GOE -5 vs. Level 4 GOE+5 in the 2022-23 season

Combination Lift: (4.30+0.86+2.40)x2=15.12
Pattern Dance Type Step Sequence in Style D: 4.45+3.75+5.59=13.79
Step Sequences: (2.23+1.69+2.61)x2=13.06
Twizzles: (2.62+0.79+2.00)x2=10.82
One Foot Turn Sequence: (2.62+0.60+1.82)x2=10.08
Choreographic Rhythm Sequence: 2.00+7.50=9.50
Spins: 4.20+1.35+2.81=8.36
Lifts: 4.30+0.86+2.40=7.56
Choreographic Elements (Free Dance): 1.10+4.15=5.25

Even if you try a more milder comparison between say Level B GOE 0 v.s Level 4 GOE +5, for instance, the ranking for scoring range is still mostly the same, as most of the differentiation comes from the GoE.

We'll have to see the precise level requirements for PSt in Style D in future Technical Rules with Ongoing Validity, but considering how combination lifts are scored like 2 separate lifts in conjunction, it's really the PSt in Style D with the greatest scoring range. There is something quite curious about the state of affairs that the watered-down step sequence that only requires 2 difficult turns per partner (only first such attempts being considered, assigning levels for the combined element instead of separately as in for step sequences, and this seemingly fitting neatly with 5 graded levels from B to 4 seem to suggest this is likely the only turn requirement for levels...) be the most differentiating element between Ice Dance teams.

+And to think that Singles Skating got stricter requirements on clusters, and Pair Skating now needs to perform a cluster in hold in their step sequences for levels in the upcoming season...
 
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Dobre said:
Crossposting from the Canadian Ice Dance thread:
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This is a big surprise, right? I thought they were in line after L/L to be Canada’s next senior team.

Well, I’m a Makita/Gunara fan myself, saw them live once and thought them talented and charming, but Canadian ice dance is not so deep that this isn’t a big deal.
 
Another new team at the Michigan Ice Dance Academy (MIDA) in Canton, MI is Deanna Arnold (looks like she is 24 according to her her IG profile?) and Seiji Urano: https://www.instagram.com/p/CdGgHonrwGf/

Urano, now 20, last competed in the U.S. in the 2019-20 season, placing 9th in Novice with Anna Lewis at the Ice Dance Final in November 2019) and he had teamed up last year with Japan's Utana Yoshida but Y/U never competed AFAIK.
 
RoseRed said:
Elliott previously competed for Canada on the JGP with Olivia McIsaac in 2017-18 (4th at their one JGP, 12th at JW) and Ashlynne Stairs in 2018-2019 (6th at one JGP). He hasn't competed since afaik, so cool to see him coming back.
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And with Hannah Whitley before that (5th at both of their JGPs in 2016, and 10th and 7th in 2014 and 2015). Very interested to see this pairing, he was a solid partner at junior.
 
jmtfti said:
And with Hannah Whitley before that (5th at both of their JGPs in 2016, and 10th and 7th in 2014 and 2015). Very interested to see this pairing, he was a solid partner at junior.
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I totally loved the team of Hannah and Elliot. I believe she developed compartment syndrone and was off for a long time and then retired.
 
Sylvia said:
... Urano, now 20, ... had teamed up last year with Japan's Utana Yoshida but Y/U never competed AFAIK.
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Hi, Sylvia! 👋
As a friendly mini-FYI: Utana Yoshida/Seiji Urano did compete together at 2021 Chesapeake Open (and placed eighth in Junior RD).

2021 Chesapeake Open

Event Results for 2021 Chesapeake Open
ijs.usfigureskating.org

2021 Chesapeake Open

Event Results for 2021 Chesapeake Open
ijs.usfigureskating.org
It's just a tiny detail, but as Utana (hopefully?) and Seiji go forward in their separate careers, maybe it would be of (minor) interest.
From Utana/Seiji's social media (Instastories, IIRC?) at the time, I got the impression that their plan always had been to compete only their RD there. After the RD, they posted happy photos/messages along the lines (not a direct quote, I'm paraphrasing) of "mission accomplished".
 
ice coverage said:
Hi, Sylvia! 👋
As a friendly mini-FYI: Utana Yoshida/Seiji Urano did compete together at 2021 Chesapeake Open (and placed eighth in Junior RD).
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Thanks for the correction! :) I'll confess now that I copied-and-pasted something I had written in May 2021 and was too lazy to check summer comp. results. :D

ETA that I even started a 2021 Chesapeake Open thread in the Kiss and Cry 2021-2022 section but only copied out the Junior dance top 7 finishers so Yoshida/Urano's names did not turn up in a search.
 
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