The Dance Hall 6: We're All Off Our Rockers 2018-2019

[cocotaffy]

This is a nice quality but at the same time, I don't like seeing it pushed as the "ultimate" way to do skating. It feels tied into style to me, and however admirable it may be, I think there is an underlying conflict between the implication that this is the thing that sets them apart as deserving winners (and therefore what other teams should do if they also want to deserve to be winners) and your point that other teams shouldn't try to be P/C. As with the "skating as one" thing I see being pushed both here and in pairs, there is a homogenizing undercurrent that I don't see as a positive at all.

But shouldn't dancing be all about interpreting the music through movements ? Hence finishing the movements and trying to express the music all the way to your fingertips and toes. However, not everyone has to move like P/C of course, it would be ridiculous and boring as you said. Each team should aim to find their voice yet I believe interpreting the music to its fullest should always be the prime objective.

 

[puglover]

I agree - H/D should not do lovey/sappy. They have always done tension and chemistry well and the blues suits them both.

 

[Lara111]

Seriously you think a brand new just up from Juniors team like L/L is going to beat W/P right out of the gate? Or the Danadians who W/P easily beat at Canadian Nats, 4CC and Worlds by an average of about 17 points are also going suddenly improve so much and beat W/P?

I think L/L would never beat W/P. W/P is in a different class.

 

[Spun Silver]

I agree - H/D should not do lovey/sappy. They have always done tension and chemistry well and the blues suits them both.

Their Hallelujah was fantastic though.

 

[chantilly]

Their Hallelujah was fantastic though.

Hallelujah is not sappy if you ask me. Leonard Cohen doesn’t really do sappy. It’s concerned somewhat with love but more with obsession.

 

[puglover]

I am worried for W/P. I assume they are staying on for a home Worlds but this year has to have been somewhat discouraging. They are Canada #1 but it has not been evident in their results and I felt Nationals were a toss up. Mind you, I love G/P's free dance. I know, the twizzle issue, but that doesn't seem to be the whole answer. I just don't know!

 

[Colonel Green]

I am worried for W/P. I assume they are staying on for a home Worlds but this year has to have been somewhat discouraging. They are Canada #1 but it has not been evident in their results and I felt Nationals were a toss up.

They knew when they took the first half of the season off that it was going to make it a long shot to medal at Worlds. Given that, I don’t think they’d be discouraged by being fifth.

 

[Wyliefan]

Did they know? I wonder. A lot of skaters have been revitalized by spending some time show skating; perhaps they thought it would happen for them.

 

[Colonel Green]

Did they know? I wonder. A lot of skaters have been revitalized by spending some time show skating; perhaps they thought it would happen for them.

Ice dance is very heavy on momentum and politics. You can’t voluntarily miss half the season without putting yourself at a disadvantage.

 

[Dobre]

I think Weaver & Poje are like Cappellini & Lanotte at this stage. They are fine, and they have perspective. Probably it would have been more motivating, though, if Team Canada looked bound to fight for an Olympic medal in 2022. What are the chances Team France & China put all their cards on the table in 3 years, do you think?

#it's-going-to-be-a-long-off-season

 

[Bigbird]

Ice dance is very heavy on momentum and politics. You can’t voluntarily miss half the season without putting yourself at a disadvantage.

It's a bit more complicated than that, IMHO. Yes there is some Russian politics, however there is also the dewy newness of Sinkats finally coming into form. They also have an athletic and elegant style something just that tad bit different that the judges gravitated to. They remind me in some respects of Davis and White. Additionally H/D were too sloppy this season and to be honest I found Weapos FD rather flat even though their smoothness is commendable . But the judges seem bored, not to mention their constantly unimpressive twizzles. If only they really fixed those.......

 

[puglover]

I do agree that S/K seem to have finally jelled. If they have good material they will be very challenging to beat. I don't find them even close to P/C though. If they start challenging them, I will be frustrated, although I am sure that is their goal.

 

[Wyliefan]

In my view, skaters who think that the thing to do with Bach is to emote all over the place, are not going to challenge skaters like P/C who have an innate sense of music and how to respond to it. JMHO. The judges may not see it that way.

(But if they don't, they're wrong. )

 

[RoyThree]

I personally have enjoyed the paradigm shift in ice dance this year, especially since mid-season. It was nice to see some surprises, instead of predictable placements. It may be a bit of a wake-up call for those teams that feel they are entitled to a placement based on their reputation. I know it's wishful thinking on my part, but this might be a good time for the Shibs to make a comeback.

 

[Colonel Green]

I think Weaver & Poje are like Cappellini & Lanotte at this stage. They are fine, and they have perspective. Probably it would have been more motivating, though, if Team Canada looked bound to fight for an Olympic medal in 2022. What are the chances Team France & China put all their cards on the table in 3 years, do you think?

Lots of question marks for the team event that won't really be answered for a while. China has a gaping hole in ladies that may or may not be filled, most obviously; it'll also be interesting to see how much their dance teams can climb the ranks, which would certainly help.

France has the makings of a competitive team if James/Cipres stick it out until then in good form, and hopefully Kuzmenko develops for the ladies' event.

It's a bit more complicated than that, IMHO.

I never said it was only one thing. But if you're really gunning for the World podium, you don't take the first half of the season off; I'm sure they were still hoping (and they weren't that far off, really), but my point was I can't imagine they're discouraged by the result, since they took half the season off and were still top five.

 

[mjb52]

P/C's fans are beginning to make me really dislike P/C, which is not something I want to do. They are a good team, with good qualities. They are not yet Torvill/Dean. They lack versatility. I personally thought their tango should have faced the same criticism as Stepanova/Bukin's - the music didn't feel that tango-ish to me at all (I am no expert on the tango, however, so this is a subjective response - if someone wants to explain that this is famous tango music or something then fine). It is not necessary to constantly put other teams down to make them seem better and to be honest, it shows some insecurity. If they are that great and that unassailable, why so worried?

eta: ha I looked it up and it's Piazzolla so it can't be the music that was the problem - maybe it's the particular clips they chose or I don't know what, but I just didn't get a tango-y vibe off the program.

 

[MsZem]

P/C's fans are beginning to make me really dislike P/C, which is not something I want to do. They are a good team, with good qualities. They are not yet Torvill/Dean. They lack versatility. I personally thought their tango should have faced the same criticism as Stepanova/Bukin's - the music didn't feel that tango-ish to me at all (I am no expert on the tango, however, so this is a subjective response - if someone wants to explain that this is famous tango music or something then fine). It is not necessary to constantly put other teams down to make them seem better and to be honest, it shows some insecurity. If they are that great and that unassailable, why so worried?

eta: ha I looked it up and it's Piazzolla so it can't be the music that was the problem - maybe it's the particular clips they chose or I don't know what, but I just didn't get a tango-y vibe off the program.

Whether the Piazzolla pieces P/C chose sounded like a tango to any specific observer is really irrelevant. They used appropriate music.

Leaving aside the way all of P/C's FD music gets lumped together by some, if they lacked versatility they would be in serious trouble skating short/rhythm dances. Which is really not the case.

 

[cocotaffy]

No one is worried, where did you read that ? People are talking about music interpretation and body movements. And there isn't putting down of any teams but just looking at what teams could improve to reach the next level. S/K have done an incredible leap which has been recognized by many on this forum, yet they still have work to do which they acknowledge themselves. H/D is a bit more worrying because that have done so great climbing up the rank last Quad to get to silver that this set back could destabilize them. But I fully expect them to come back stronger if they are willing to take a hard and honest look on what happened this season. No doubts they are fighters. P/C are not immune to criticisms and even if I don't share the opinion on the lack of versatility I can see where it's coming from. However, this is one of those never ending discussions where both side are quite set in their views so I don't even take part anymore. Tbh everything on the subject has been kind of said anyway. As for rivalry, I fully expect S/K to challenge P/C if not next year the year after that because they're closing the gap quickly if we look at WTT. Healthy competition is always good, it pushes everyone and P/C know that first hand having faced 2 years of intense rivalry with V/M. It only made them better faster.

 

[mjb52]

I do agree that S/K seem to have finally jelled. If they have good material they will be very challenging to beat. I don't find them even close to P/C though. If they start challenging them, I will be frustrated, although I am sure that is their goal.

In my view, skaters who think that the thing to do with Bach is to emote all over the place, are not going to challenge skaters like P/C who have an innate sense of music and how to respond to it. JMHO. The judges may not see it that way.

(But if they don't, they're wrong. )

These are the posts I was primarily responding to as well as the underlying undercurrent in other posts that P/C's way of interpreting the music is "right" and S/K's is somehow "wrong." It's irritating. I have been trying very hard to be patient but I'm really getting sick of it.

 

[Ka3sha]

In my view, skaters who think that the thing to do with Bach is to emote all over the place, are not going to challenge skaters like P/C who have an innate sense of music and how to respond to it. JMHO. The judges may not see it that way.

(But if they don't, they're wrong. )

I understand what you are talking about, but to be fair - they were over emoting to Kreisler, not Bach
I enjoyed the first part of their free dance and thought that their interpretation of this music was actually quite nice (not outstanding, but more than just ok).
But those hideous music cuts are Zhulin's second nature, so...

 

[Gris]

P/C's fans are beginning to make me really dislike P/C, which is not something I want to do. They are a good team, with good qualities. They are not yet Torvill/Dean. They lack versatility. I personally thought their tango should have faced the same criticism as Stepanova/Bukin's - the music didn't feel that tango-ish to me at all (I am no expert on the tango, however, so this is a subjective response - if someone wants to explain that this is famous tango music or something then fine). It is not necessary to constantly put other teams down to make them seem better and to be honest, it shows some insecurity. If they are that great and that unassailable, why so worried?

eta: ha I looked it up and it's Piazzolla so it can't be the music that was the problem - maybe it's the particular clips they chose or I don't know what, but I just didn't get a tango-y vibe off the program.

I often find statements like 'someone's fans are the reason why I dislike them' weird. Are you suggesting that the skaters should be held responsible when their fans are annoying you? It's not that hard to distinguish the athletes from the fandom.

Honestly I think you just don't like them much in the first place, which is perfectly fine. Being good doesn't (and shouldn't) equal to being universally loved.

ETA: As for S/K's interpretation in their FD, I think Zhulin is the one to blame - the second piece of music just doesn't mesh well with Bach.

 

[Wyliefan]

I don't mean to go over the top, and I promise not to start any secret baby blogs or throw Poohs at the TV or go around biting opposing fans' heads off. I just think that P/C are miles ahead of S/K in many areas, including understanding and interpreting music, that's all. If this be treason, make the most of it.

 

[cocotaffy]

These are the posts I was primarily responding to as well as the underlying undercurrent in other posts that P/C's way of interpreting the music is "right" and S/K's is somehow "wrong." It's irritating. I have been trying very hard to be patient but I'm really getting sick of it.

I see, well of course "right" "wrong" isn't the way to go about it. What I will say about S/K in this year's FD is that the first part was superior to the second where tbh it was a lot of arm flailing, especially in the choreographic step sequence. It looked kind of randomly put together. What was your take on their FD ?

 

[twizzletoes76]

I just think that P/C are miles ahead of S/K in many areas, including understanding and interpreting music, that's all. If this be treason, make the most of it.

Not sure I agree with that—did you watch closely RD this season? Sin/Kats had a very challenging and intricate program—not simple stuff. I have yet to see Pap/Ciz do a program that has choreography as nuanced as that.

 

[Eisfee]

I really liked the first part of S/K's FD, the last part not so much. And their tango was fantastic.
But I'm just really happy that they had a great season and improved signifikant.
Let's see what the next season brings.
Hopefully we will have wonderful new dances and great competitions!

 

[Ka3sha]

Wishes for the next season(s):
SinKats came a long way from 2014 and finally gelled as a team , so I would like them to do blues again at some point in the future.
They had a lovely EX to 'The Man I Love' this season and Zhulin should know how to do a good blues (here am trying to forget Bobrova/Soloviev's SD from 2016/17).

As for H/D - I think that classic rock ballads could suit them and their style very well, or even something written by the Scorpions

 

[Dobre]

As for next season(s):

As for H/D - I think that classic rock ballads could suit them and their style very well, or even something written by Scorpions

I think they should really consider talking to Fontana & Zimmerman. Because the music they are digging up for James & Cipres is right up H&D's alley. And I would go get some outside choreography--try and talk Bourne or Kerr into taking the plunge and doing a dance program. I really think Dubreil & Lauzon have demonstrated the ability to tweak and polish someone else's choreography. Pick someone with a modern & less in-house vibe to do the bones of the FD and have the in-house experts polish & make sure it is to "dance-code." (I'm not familiar with anything by the Scorpions that hasn't already been used, but I've had enough of the pieces that have been).

 

[mjb52]

I see, well of course "right" "wrong" isn't the way to go about it. What I will say about S/K in this year's FD is that the first part was superior to the second where tbh it was a lot of arm flailing, especially in the choreographic step sequence. It looked kind of randomly put together. What was your take on their FD ?

I can't decide how I feel about the second piece. I didn't like it at first, but it grew on me over the course of the season. I think for me I found the transition between the two awkward at first, but either they shifted the cut slightly or I just got used to it because by the end I didn't mind - perhaps it makes a difference when you know to expect it? I would like them to do something different next year though, either a single piece or pieces cut together in a more balanced way, instead of such a sharp transition 2/3rds of the way through the program.

I love S/K's potential for wildness and passion and abandon, although I think clearly Zhulin's strategy of trying to keep it somewhat controlled this season was a good one. And I don't want them to do the same thing all the time either. So for next year, I think the challenge is how to set Nikita particularly free a little while still choosing a piece that lets them continue to grow stylistically.

 

[laviemn]

P/C's fans are beginning to make me really dislike P/C, which is not something I want to do.

I wonder why you read the P/C fan thread then, when obviously it's the place you'll find the most constant, effusive praise of them. I see your name at the bottom of that thread not infrequently, and it seems an odd choice to seek out something that irritates you. And then blame other people for irritating you.

It might be what makes the praise/criticism ratio seem unbalanced to you, particularly if it's something you're sensitive to, because P/C are criticized in other, more general threads. Read the PBP threads. Or threads where Canadian and Russian dance fans congregate.

It is not necessary to constantly put other teams down to make them seem better and to be honest, it shows some insecurity. If they are that great and that unassailable, why so worried?

In the context of what's been irritating you in this thread, I've haven't seen posters insisting they are Torvill and Dean or the greatest of all time lately. The discussion in the last few pages has been about what other top teams could do to rise higher, and it's inevitable and reasonable to compare them to the team that is currently at the very top. If Sinitsina/Katsalapov were the reigning 4 time World Champions, people would be measuring other teams by their standard.

 

[mjb52]

I wonder why you read the P/C fan thread then, when obviously it's the place you'll find the most constant, effusive praise of them. I see your name at the bottom of that thread not infrequently, and it seems an odd choice to seek out something that irritates you. And then blame other people for irritating you.

I read the P/C thread b/c in general I do like them (although not as much as other teams) and also it is the off-season and there is simply not very much content around at the moment - I doubt I will read it much once the season starts again. But I see nothing in there that bothers me, it is the posts in THIS thread that I take issue with, specifically those that seemed to target other teams.