Spin Features Thread

[On My Own]

Continued from here: https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/th...iculty-guidelines-for-marking-goe-pcs.110680/

I hope to see some of the requests for the features answered here (like @vu2019 was saying they'd give me an example of camel transitioning to layback), and collecting examples of some of the rarer features.

Acceleration used to be rare, now it's somewhat more common after it became part of the list of features necessary in a level 4 spin. I have never yet thought it's looked bad, unmusical, or out of place, so hope to see more using it. Would like to see difficult exit entirely out of the list - 5 features in the list for three spins in a program are enough.

 

[On My Own]

Can someone explain to me why Farris' combo spin only seems to have received level 2?

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http://www.isuresults.com/seminars/TPHandbook_SingleSkating_2014-15.pdf

Going by the underlining, seems difficult change of position was introduced that season. Farris attempts:

1. Clear change of edge on camel
2. Difficult sit position (I think broken leg was still considered a difficult variation in 2015*)
3. Difficult upright position
4. Difficult change of position on same foot (upright to sit)
5. Difficult sit position

*even if not, still 4 features, and/or still confused as to why it's not level 3.

But he only got a level 2. https://skatingscores.com/1415/natusa/sr/men/i/short/usa/joshua_farris/

Why? eta: @gkelly

 

[On My Own]

Polina Edmunds doing a change of edge Biellmann https://youtu.be/bsaCaB1E1NA?t=312

 

[On My Own]

Xiangyi AN (CHN) | Women Short Program | Gdansk 2022 | #JGPFigure

To license ISU footage: https://bit.ly/3M7bcaF Visit https://isu.org/JuniorGrandPrix for more information on the ISU Junior Grand Prix of Figure Skating.Cour...

youtu.be

Change of direction, and then doing a very difficult upright position in the opposite direction.

 

[Bird]

Continued from here: https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/th...iculty-guidelines-for-marking-goe-pcs.110680/

I hope to see some of the requests for the features answered here (like @vu2019 was saying they'd give me an example of camel transitioning to layback), and collecting examples of some of the rarer features.

Acceleration used to be rare, now it's somewhat more common after it became part of the list of features necessary in a level 4 spin. I have never yet thought it's looked bad, unmusical, or out of place, so hope to see more using it. Would like to see difficult exit entirely out of the list - 5 features in the list for three spins in a program are enough.

Combination Spins

I found this site - it’s more something to explain combination spins for fans/non experts. But it does mention one camel transitioning to a layback…

 

[On My Own]

Combination Spins

I found this site - it’s more something to explain combination spins for fans/non experts. But it does mention one camel transitioning to a layback…

Unfortunately, the link isn't working for me. I can enter the website, but cannot access the camel to layback video.

 

[Bird]

Unfortunately, the link isn't working for me. I can enter the website, but cannot access the camel to layback video.

I can’t get the Sarah Broxterman video to play either unfortunately. Here’s someone else doing the combo.

Camel layback combination spin

My coach and I finally fixed my camel spin! Her advice was to keep my left arm back as I step into the spin.First, a messed up spin to show what I was doing ...

youtu.be

 

[On My Own]

I don't think that would be considered a difficult transition. Just a simple (even if very neat and clean) transition between the two positions.

 

[Bird]

I don't think that would be considered a difficult transition. Just a simple (even if very neat and clean) transition between the two positions.

I’m a non-skater so I can’t confirm, but that YouTube video is from 14 years ago and I couldn’t find any more recent versions. Maybe it isn’t scored highly and isn’t done much anymore? But someone who knows more could confirm. It looked like Sarah Broxterman also did a sit spin with hers, but I couldn’t find the video.

 

[vu2019]

.

 

[flyingsit]

I would love to see a feature for clearly changing positions within 1 revolution.

 

[On My Own]

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youtu.be

I don't think this was a feature during this (2017-18) season, but it was during the 2010-2013 seasons? "All 3 basic positions on both feet". I'm not sure it was rare as much as just sloppy most of the time it was done, but Kostner's choreography here is nice and flowing between the camel to sit on the first foot, and then to sit to upright on the second foot.

Have to add one of the first instances of acceleration I'd seen:

Yu-Na KIM 2007 World Figure Skating Championships Short Program

Kim yuna 2007 world championships figure skating SP 'Tango de Roxane'Yu-Na KimYuna Kim's Official Website: http://www.yunakim.com/Yuna Kim's Official YT Cha...

youtu.be

 

[LilJen]

Can someone explain to me why Farris' combo spin only seems to have received level 2?

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

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http://www.isuresults.com/seminars/TPHandbook_SingleSkating_2014-15.pdf

Going by the underlining, seems difficult change of position was introduced that season. Farris attempts:

1. Clear change of edge on camel
2. Difficult sit position (I think broken leg was still considered a difficult variation in 2015*)
3. Difficult upright position
4. Difficult change of position on same foot (upright to sit)
5. Difficult sit position

*even if not, still 4 features, and/or still confused as to why it's not level 3.

But he only got a level 2. https://skatingscores.com/1415/natusa/sr/men/i/short/usa/joshua_farris/

Why? eta: @gkelly

Maybe there were some positions that weren't counted because it took too long for him to truly establish the position and there weren't at least two full revolutions after the position was established?

(side note: what a gorgeous skater. Career cut too short; wish he could have completed longer.)

 

[Husky]

Is this spin training common today? And when did it come up?

 

[gkelly]

Is this spin training common today? And when did it come up?

I have no idea if it's commonly used for training these days, but I have seen plastic spinners like that from about 30 years ago.

 

[Alilou]

I have no idea if it's commonly used for training these days, but I have seen plastic spinners like that from about 30 years ago.

Megan Duhamel uses it.

 

[gkelly]

Copying from the Unpopular Opinions thread:

gkelly will nitpick me to death and perhaps contact the FBI to have me assassinated, but I don't think the illusion entry is any good as a "difficult entry". Many times, it looks more like the skater did the illusion to torque themselves into the spin.

Lock your doors -- the assassins are on their way.

I also don't think the knee slide exits are "difficult". I'm not sure what I'd call 'difficult' exit for a spin, unless it's one of those few times we've seen a 3S done straight off a spin (which would double as an unexpected entry to the sal). A well controlled exit is probably much more difficult to do than some of these 'difficult' exits.

What I'm especially impressed by are spin exits that check out onto a controlled edge and then add other turns or edge work on the same foot. Definitely more difficult than just holding the controlled edge for a second or two before stepping to the next move, and also more skating skill-based than knee slides or flexibility moves on simple edges (which are still more difficult than simple edges alone).

Another risk of knee slides as spin exits at the end of a program is that if the skater has stopped moving any muscles by the time the time limit is reached but the still body is still sliding across the ice, they can get a time deduction.

I've said it before, but I want some features of the spins to be double counted - like "difficult change of position". Change of edge on positions like the Biellmann also deserve to be double counted.

Well, a difficult change of position in which one of the positions also counts as a difficult position earns two features*, as does change of edge in a difficult position.

(*Or three features if both positions before and after the change are difficult, in a combo spin with no change of foot. But skaters rarely plan a CoSp or FCoSp any more since a CCoSp or FCCoSp have higher base values, and the CCoSp is required in the short program.)

Some difficult positions are more difficult than others, and similarly change of edge in some positions is more difficult than in others. And some difficult entrances or exits are more difficult than others. Basically, the IJS says "this counts as a difficult feature" and then realizes that some ways of meeting "this" are not particularly difficult, so they remove that option from the list of features entirely or they specify that the feature only counts in some positions but not others.

Meanwhile, change of edge in simple upright spins and change of direction with a change of foot in simple upright spins no longer count as features at all.

Long ago at the very beginning of IJS, I once saw a skater execute a change of direction in an upright spin all on one foot. It wasn't during competition though. Now that is something I would have loved to count as a double feature! Too difficult even for that skater, so I never saw it again from him or anyone else. If the reward had been commensurate, we probably would have.

With difficult entries/exits, skaters put out options that they can do that are at least slightly harder than not doing them, and then the tech panel community needs to come to consensus about whether those options really are difficult enough to be rewarded. Which can lead to some inconsistency between panels at first. And then changes in the guidelines to specify what does or doesn't count. E.g., illusions no longer count as difficult entries/exits and don't count as difficult variations unless they achieve at least 135-degree split.

 

[gkelly]

And follow-up:

If you have a video, I'd love to see! If it looked like what I think you're saying, I think it deserved all 4 levels just for that

I don't have a video of that skater executing it, because it wasn't an occasion that would have been videoed.

The closest I could find is this:

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The example I'm thinking of was more sustained tighter upright spins (i.e., more modern-style scratch and back scratch, I don't remember which came first), with less ice covered on the change of edge to change direction.

Also, in searching for this example I discovered that Schafer used to spin on his toepicks in a number of different positions. He could earn features this year with those variations.

In addition to the upright spin in the other clip and in the beginning of this one, see also the spins starting 3:35 in this compilation:

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[On My Own]

I will make this the thread where I want to say that the toepick spins need to die already, and yes I know it's not even halfway through the season yet.