Should Transgender Women be competing in Women's sporting events?

[just tuned in]

I think every decision would have been unfair. Allowing her to compete when her testosterone levels are clearly giving her an advantage is unfair. Forcing her to take hormones for something she has no control over and that is a natural condition is unfair as well. Not allowing her to compete for the same reason is also unfair.

I have no idea what a fair solution would be but I hope that someone else comes up with one.

I am not advocating for this idea, just asking.... can women with internal testes get their testes removed surgically?

 

[ilovepaydays]

WAIT. Has it ever been verified that this is the case with Semenya? Or are people just assuming or gossiping about her having internal testes based on her testosterone level and/or how her body is built?

 

[Tesla]

Do you let a 200 pound wrestler compete against a 105 pound wrestler, even if the 200 pound wrestler is at his/her natural weight? Why not?

No, because they'll be in different weight classes.

 

[ilovepaydays]

BREAKING NEWS: Semenya is a late minute entry to the 800m at the Doha Diamond League meet tomorrow. It’ll be the last meet before the rules for her go into effect.

Honestly, she needs to go out, hopefully break the ~35 year world record, and make them pay her for it.

I believe Semenya is sponsored by Nike. I hope that they are staying by her side.

On a related note - I’m so excited for outdoor track season to start!

 

[genevieve]

This is like barring Usain Bolt from sprinting because studies have found that Jamaicans tend to possess a specific gene related to fast-twitch muscles, or keeping Phelps out of the pool because he just happens to have the perfect physical structure for swimming.

Good luck to Caster this weekend. This is a travesty.

 

[Artistic Skaters]

They treat her like a freak yet they admired Phelps physical attributes that made him successful at his sport.

 

[MacMadame]

WAIT. Has it ever been verified that this is the case with Semenya? Or are people just assuming or gossiping about her having internal testes based on her testosterone level and/or how her body is built?

When she was 18, she was tested and the sporting org said she was female. It was leaked from that test that she does have undescended testes and no ovaries (which would (a) make her intersexed and (b) explain her testosterone level).

People have gossiped about more than that, claiming all sorts of other things but those things were not leaked so they are just conspiracy theories. The leaked stuff has the same credibility as any leaked info. i.e., depends on who leaked it and who reported it and what verification they did

 

[caseyedwards]

This is like barring Usain Bolt from sprinting because studies have found that Jamaicans tend to possess a specific gene related to fast-twitch muscles, or keeping Phelps out of the pool because he just happens to have the perfect physical structure for swimming.

Good luck to Caster this weekend. This is a travesty.

This is totally different. She doesn’t just have long arms or legs that aren’t really gender related or a trait Jamaicans of all genders share. She is woman with the testosterone level of a man. If you test all men and semenya there would be equal testosterone but with other women it’s not even close.

 

[ballettmaus]

This is like barring Usain Bolt from sprinting because studies have found that Jamaicans tend to possess a specific gene related to fast-twitch muscles, or keeping Phelps out of the pool because he just happens to have the perfect physical structure for swimming.

To compare, I think we first have to know exactly how much of an advantage the genetic make-up gives them (all three of them) and/or we'd have to know with 100% certainty that Phelps' and Bolt's dominance is only due to their genetic make-up and not also due to performance enhancing drugs. I know they never tested positive but I'm too much of a cynic to believe that that means anything nowadays. (It took ages until Lance Armstrong's doping became public knowledge and until it did, it looked like his dominance was only due to genetic make-up as well. There is the possibility that it's the same with Phelps and Bolt.)

I am not advocating for this idea, just asking.... can women with internal testes get their testes removed surgically?

I don't know if it's possible but I don't think it would be fair to ask that of her either. If she has accepted herself the way she is, she should not have to be forced to become a different person.

I think that's why her case is so tricky. It's not merely about the sport, it's also about human rights.

 

[just tuned in]

They treat her like a freak yet they admired Phelps physical attributes that made him successful at his sport.

So the issue sort of reminds me of The Incredibles movie, when Dash wants to run track, but his mom says it would not be fair to the other kids. They compromised by letting Dash run, but he has to be careful not to win. Second place is okay.

 

[genevieve]

To compare, I think we first have to know exactly how much of an advantage the genetic make-up gives them (all three of them) ....

how do you quantify that? I mean, someone can have the perfect physical structure for a sport (like Phelps) and still be a crap swimmer. I read a fascinating article about Bolt, with people trying to figure out how someone with a seeming disadvantage (Bolt is 6'5", which is not considered ideal for sprinters) could be so extraordinary - which is where I learned that there have been studies that show that 75% of Jamaicans are estimated to have this fast-twitch gene, which is perhaps related to the soil in Jamaica. But not all Jamaican sprinters dominate.

As long as Caster isn't doping herself with testosterone, her advantage is one she was born with, just as any other athlete with physical advantages is.

Specific to the gender issue here - didn't some competitors complain about tennis player Amelie Mauresmo? I recall reading an interview that an opponent complained that she hit the ball too hard, "like a man", which was not only sore loser whining, but thinly veiled homophobia as well. ETA - not sure if this is the article I read so long ago, but it addresses the comments she faced: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2006/nov/26/tennis.features1

I geuss Mauresmo should be grateful she wasn't subjected to medical testing, to leaking her personal medical information to the world for scrutiny, or to having her sport introduce any rules that barred essentially her from the sport while she was at the top of her game.

 

[barbk]

https://www.letsrun.com/news/2019/0...-about-caster-semenya-she-has-xy-chromosomes/

 

[MacMadame]

That article makes it seem like she has XY only. If she has no female organs and her chromosomes are XY, then she's a guy. She was tested at age 18 and they said she's female. Most likely, she's XXY. I think that's a big difference, personally.

 

[MacMadame]

This article, while using somewhat polarizing language talks about how people have used the idea of "real women" to limit female athletes and says that this is what is going on with Semenya. And also, to get back to the actual topic of this thread, to trans women:

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opini...lter-her-body-make-slower-runners-ncna1000896

 

[skatfan]

I think every decision would have been unfair. Allowing her to compete when her testosterone levels are clearly giving her an advantage is unfair. Forcing her to take hormones for something she has no control over and that is a natural condition is unfair as well. Not allowing her to compete for the same reason is also unfair.

I still don’t think your first statement holds. I get that the other athletes are upset - but we don’t tell Michael Phelps that his wingspan is an unfair advantage, or that Simone Biles ability to know where she is in the air is not fair.

The Olympics is all about faster, higher, stronger, except when you are really really better than the other women.

 

[barbk]

The Olympics is all about faster, higher, stronger, except when you are really really better than the other women.

If you have a Y chromosome and testes that secrete testosterone at masculine levels, are you biologically a woman? (She is definitely female in a gender context, but I am not convinced that she is in a biological sense.)

 

[caseyedwards]

I still don’t think your first statement holds. I get that the other athletes are upset - but we don’t tell Michael Phelps that his wingspan is an unfair advantage, or that Simone Biles ability to know where she is in the air is not fair.

The Olympics is all about faster, higher, stronger, except when you are really really better than the other women.

But sports is divided by gender for reasons! Semenya has so much testosterone she is equal to a man. It’s not just elevated for a woman. It’s actually man level. So that’s the problem. Long wingspan or depth perception is not like being in the physically stronger and faster gender because of your testosterone level.

 

[MacMadame]

If you have a Y chromosome and testes that secrete testosterone at masculine levels, are you biologically a woman? (She is definitely female in a gender context, but I am not convinced that she is in a biological sense.)

The problem is there aren't two genders but we only have two categories.

Semenya has so much testosterone she is equal to a man.

Her testosterone levels are actually on the low side for a man.

And it hasn't really been proven exactly how much of a boost testosterone gives an athlete. We know it helps with muscle growth but there's more to being a track athlete than muscles.

 

[barbk]

The problem is there aren't two genders but we only have two categories.


Her testosterone levels are actually on the low side for a man.

And it hasn't really been proven exactly how much of a boost testosterone gives an athlete. We know it helps with muscle growth but there's more to being a track athlete than muscles.

Actually, you can look at the differences in Semenya's times when she was required to reduce her testosterone levels -- she became markedly slower. She then speeded up again when the restriction was lifted.

 

[ilovepaydays]

Women’s 800m at 2019 Doha Diamond League

 

[allezfred]

Actually, you can look at the differences in Semenya's times when she was required to reduce her testosterone levels -- she became markedly slower. She then speeded up again when the restriction was lifted.

Reverse doping is not a good look for the sport.

And I still can’t understand why we are discussing Caster Semenya in a transgender thread.

 

[barbk]

And I still can’t understand why we are discussing Caster Semenya in a transgender thread.

Thread drift -- which is rather the norm for FSU.

 

[ballettmaus]

how do you quantify that?

I don't know. Do tests with computer models?

I mean, someone can have the perfect physical structure for a sport (like Phelps) and still be a crap swimmer. I read a fascinating article about Bolt, with people trying to figure out how someone with a seeming disadvantage (Bolt is 6'5", which is not considered ideal for sprinters) could be so extraordinary - which is where I learned that there have been studies that show that 75% of Jamaicans are estimated to have this fast-twitch gene, which is perhaps related to the soil in Jamaica. But not all Jamaican sprinters dominate.

And a few years ago, Jamaican athletes were caught doping. So, if I have a physical advantage and still have to take performance enhancing drugs to dominate then I don't think the physical advantage can be that big of an advantage.

I still don’t think your first statement holds. I get that the other athletes are upset - but we don’t tell Michael Phelps that his wingspan is an unfair advantage,

Until someone tells me with 100% certainty that neither Phelps nor Bolt ever used any performance enhancing drugs, I will always wonder if they did. Same with Ole Einer Björndalen and possibly other athletes I can't think of right now.

If someone does, then I'll also consider it not fair. Generally, I already respond to competitions where a dominant athlete like Phelps or Bolt or Björndalen competes in the way that I responded to competitions where Semenya competed. I watched them with a kind of indifference and less interest because it was more or less obvious who'd win.

or that Simone Biles ability to know where she is in the air is not fair.

I don't think that gymnastics is comparable. Biles may have the ability to know where she is in the air and that helps her with tumbling but that's only one aspect of gymnastics. (Plus, it is a judged sport). I'm a natural turner (dancing). It helps me with my pirouettes and makes me a better turner than others in so far, that it makes turning easier and I can do triples where others can only do doubles. But someone else's double can still look nicer because they can have better turnout, better releve, etc. and it certainly doesn't make me a better dancer.