Should the minimum age limit specifically for the senior ladies be raised?

[Triple loop]

As a physical therapist, I know that serious injuries are common with prepubescent girls. Look what happened to Tara Lipinski after the Olympics. She needed labrum surgery. With this IJS, girls are having to do more demanding technical elements to win and risk horrible injuries that can affect their adulthood. We will also see gals retiring too early. No more Kwans nor Itos who skated until their 20's and really matured. I'm going to say the minimum age limit should be 16 or 17.

 

[wickedwitch]

No more Kwans nor Itos who skated until their 20's and really matured. I'm going to say the minimum age limit should be 16 or 17.

Gosh, to think Kostner and Wagner were figments of my imagination....

 

[Triple loop]

Gosh, to think Kostner and Wagner were figments of my imagination...
I'm talking about the new breed of youngsters.

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

We have this thread a few times a year. No point discussing. The youngsters are winning for their federations. I would choose 18.

 

[SamuraiK]

Gosh, to think Kostner and Wagner were figments of my imagination....

Not to mention Kwan only skated into her 20s because young teen girls could compete and sadly it wasn't her the one on the top of the podium. If she had won gold at Nagano would she have stayed for so long?? Hard to say but Im willing to bet she would have had a much shorter career. So for every girl calling it quits there are also the ones sticking around for the next opportunity.

 

[rfisher]

As if the youngsters "health" is the concern. They start training triples as preteens including the 3A and now they're all working on quads. So, exactly how will their health be protected by making them stay junior? Nobody buys that argument any more.

 

[ninjapirate]

I support raising it to 16. I think raising it any higher would require some other changes because that's just a long time at juniors. Changes being doing something to bring more attention to junior grand prix final/junior worlds... allowing the 15-16 year olds skate in the challenger series... maybe having different age standards for the senior grand prix and for senior worlds.

 

[screech]

At least it's better than when it used to be 12!! From wikipedia...

The ISU has modified its age rules several times. Prior to the 1990s, 12 was the minimum age for senior international competitions. New rules were introduced in 1996, requiring skaters to be at least 15 before July 1 of the preceding year in order to compete at the Olympics, Worlds, Europeans, or Four Continents. The minimum age for all other senior internationals was 14 until July 2014, when it was raised to 15.

I do feel bad though for skaters who are too young but can't compete. For example, Stephen Gogolev who is just now old enough to compete in juniors internationally, but had nobody at his level to compete with in Canada. IIRC that's the reason Orser had him compete in seniors at Canadians last year - so that he would experience not winning a competition.

It also sucks for skaters like Sotnikova who was born just hours into July 1, meaning she had to wait another year to be age eligible.

While my preference is to watch a more mature style of skating, I do also think that if a skater can effectively compete in seniors, they should be able to. Age limits is not going to stop skaters like Trusova or Gogolev from working on quads, but hopefully they can be smart about it.
Also, while she's not everybody's cup of tea, IMO Medvedeva showed more maturity in her skating style in her first year competing senior than a lot of older skaters against whom she was competing.

 

[Sasha'sSpins]

No!! IMO, it should go back down to 15!

 

[Simone411]

Well, as of now and it's also looking that way in the future, no one will ever beat Tara's record of winning a Gold Medal at age 14 years and 10 months at the Olympics.

Unless they do change it back to 14, then Tara will always hold on to that record. Even if they change it to 15, Tara will keep that record forever.

 

[Vash01]

No. Mao Asada was denied a chance to win an OGM at age 14. I think it should not be raised, but I am open to a lower limit. We are seeing 13 year olds doing quads. My only concern would be that they may unfairly get higher PCS than they deserve, just because they landed quads.

 

[gkelly]

If the age were to be raised above 15 for girls, it should be raised an equal amount or higher for boys.

But there would be fewer boys affected because they usually tend to stay junior longer in any case. (And also there are just fewer boys who skate, period, in most countries.)

 

[screech]

No. Mao Asada was denied a chance to win an OGM at age 14. I think it should not be raised, but I am open to a lower limit. We are seeing 13 year olds doing quads. My only concern would be that they may unfairly get higher PCS than they deserve, just because they landed quads.

Mao would have been almost 15 and a half if she'd competed in 2006. Her birthday, however, was 3 months too late to qualify her (same with Yuna).
Tara was over 15 and a half when she won. Based on the current rules, she still would have qualified (turning 15 before July 1 of the year before).

The thing that bugs me about age limits is the junior limits for pairs/dance, where the boy can be 21, but the girl 19 or younger. What if it's a team where the girl is older? It should be the same age for both genders, IMO, OR, the oldest in the team can be 21 if the youngest is 19 or younger.

 

[mag]

The thing that bugs me about age limits is the junior limits for pairs/dance, where the boy can be 21, but the girl 19 or younger. What if it's a team where the girl is older? It should be the same age for both genders, IMO, OR, the oldest in the team can be 21 if the youngest is 19 or younger.

I understand why the age is 21 because of the physical maturity required for lifting, but I agree it would be better to just allow both partners to be a maximum of 21. I can’t think of a single reason why the girl couldn’t be U21 as well.

 

[hanca]

I understand why the age is 21 because of the physical maturity required for lifting, but I agree it would be better to just allow both partners to be a maximum of 21. I can’t think of a single reason why the girl couldn’t be U21 as well.

But juniors do exactly the same lifts! So I really can’t see how 20 year old guy can be called a junior. I would lower the age for pair and ice dance men to have it same as their partners - unedr 19

 

[mag]

But juniors do exactly the same lifts! So I really can’t see how 20 year old guy can be called a junior. I would lower the age for pair and ice dance men to have it same as their partners - unedr 19

Well that works too. I think the age should be the same. Pick one age for both.

 

[kwanatic]

Like someone said, whether or not the age limit is raised younger girls are not going to stop attempting body damaging jumps.

It'd be nice if the judges would be fair about it. I wouldn't take anything away from these girls on the technical side of things but the rest of the scoring needs to reflect what's actually being done on the ice. The ridiculousness of the PCS scoring is what is killing my love for this sport. Give credit for what the technical beast does...but also give credit for what the artist does. The artist doesn't get bonus TES points for what they do well. Why does the technical beast get credit for what they do well and what they don't do well? That's what's unfair about the sport.

The difference in scoring a girl vs. a woman really comes down to PCS in most cases. There are a few younger girls who deserve scores similar to what the women receive (Kostornaia comes to mind)...but they are the exception rather than the rule. And I'm not talking about holding skaters back either. Just don't get caught up in the fireworks of the big jumps and score across the board based on that. Yes, the jumps were incredible but the presentation was weak, the choreography was perfunctory and the skater wasn't engaged in the performance. The scores should reflect that...

But they never do.

 

[Holy Headband]

No.

 

[Japanfan]

The thing that bugs me about age limits is the junior limits for pairs/dance, where the boy can be 21, but the girl 19 or younger. What if it's a team where the girl is older? It should be the same age for both genders, IMO, OR, the oldest in the team can be 21 if the youngest is 19 or younger.

But juniors do exactly the same lifts! So I really can’t see how 20 year old guy can be called a junior. I would lower the age for pair and ice dance men to have it same as their partners - unedr 19

I support raising it to 16.

I sort of agree from the standpoint that skaters often lose their jumps as their bodies mature. Starting seniors at 16 might make skaters' senior careers a little more even as some who do really well before they mature struggle during maturity and after it. There can be a lot of hype about promising skaters at the junior level who don't deliver that promise after maturity.

But at the same time, maturity doesn't always start/end before 16.

And you really can't hold these young kids back!

 

[starrynight]

I understand why the age is 21 because of the physical maturity required for lifting, but I agree it would be better to just allow both partners to be a maximum of 21. I can’t think of a single reason why the girl couldn’t be U21 as well.

Yes, this is a good point. I get that boys need to be older in pairs especially as many cannot develop the strength to lift until their mid teens. But why do they make the cut off for pairs girls a few years younger? Does anyone recall the reasoning for this when the rule was introduced? Or was it just deciding the boys needed to be older as so just raising their age independently?

 

[Orm Irian]

I'd support raising the minimum age to enter international seniors to 16 at 1 July of the season in question for all skaters - men, women, pairs and dance. In many countries that's the age at which you can choose to leave school and begin your working life, learn to drive, etc, so it signifies a certain culturally-accepted level of maturity and autonomy that's appropriate for someone beginning a significant international sporting career.

But I'd also support raising the entry age for international juniors to 14 as of 1 July of the season in question. Let's give the majority of the field the opportunity to at least get through the start of puberty in decent privacy and without pressure before they get shoved onto the international stage!

 

[starrynight]

I think the structure of juniors with the entry level at 13 is probably perfect for a large proportion of entrants into the JGP who do this for intense high level recreation and want to get as much enjoyment out of it as possible while still at school, after which they will leave skating to focus on university/careers.

 

[screech]

But I'd also support raising the entry age for international juniors to 14 as of 1 July of the season in question. Let's give the majority of the field the opportunity to at least get through the start of puberty in decent privacy and without pressure before they get shoved onto the international stage!

I'm okay with 13. I think of skaters like Gogolev or Trusova who really didn't have anyone to compete with nationally, and needed the international challenges. Like I said upthread, it was decided to put Gogolev in seniors at Canadians last year (as the reigning junior champ) because he'd never really experienced not winning. That's not really healthy for an athlete. Even Usain Bolt lost on occasion...

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I'll be fascinated to track Trusova's progress over the next few years on her journey through to senior competition.

Having seen her skate in person at the JGP of Brisbane, she is slightly taller than me standing up, as I am sitting down. That is how little she is.

Federations often look to genetics as an indication of a skater's long term potential. Trusova's mom accompanied her to Australia last year, and she is about the same build as her daughter, too.

 

[Brenda_Bottems]

Yes. Increase the age limit to 18. The sport is called LADIES,not GIRLS. Then the ISU shall bring back school figures,ban atrocious lyrics,and bring back Scott Hamilton and Sandra Bezic. Glory days will return!

-BB

 

[Aussie Willy]

The issue is repetition of practicing jumps that does the damage. Raising the age will not stop skaters practising the jumps. They will just do them in junior until they eligible for senior competitions.

 

[starrynight]

The issue is repetition of practicing jumps that does the damage. Raising the age will not stop skaters practising the jumps. They will just do them in junior until they eligible for senior competitions.

I think we are in an experimental phase at the moment. They will use the current juniors as test subjects to work out what works and what doesn't in terms of pushing juniors.

I'm not sure if the model of Russian juniors really is applicable to the rest of the world though. Conducting experiments with young bodies is perhaps worth it in Russia where there is funding. Or even the funding to even have the coaching time to do such things, which doesn't exist elsewhere.

However, in the rest of the world, parents may be cautious about spending huge amounts of money they don't have on training if there's a risk of the skater breaking prior to reaching seniors. There's not really the financial incentive for it. There's no money or fame to be had in juniors for skaters in the rest of the world.

The resources Russia has shows in the junior results, but it seems over time once it reaches seniors, the other countries catch up, particularly in disciplines like dance and pairs where the skaters need to be older.

 

[briancoogaert]

The problem is not just about Senior, but about Junior.
As long as you have junior ladies landing quads at 13, you cannot keep them as junior for 4 years !
If only they were judged properly, we wouldn't have that problem.
So please, judges, don't give so high PCS for young ladies just because they land difficult combos or quads. They will concentrate more on skating skills, and, I hope, will have less health problems.

 

[gkelly]

What is the problem? Young girls getting injured, as stated in the OP? (And is this also a problem for young boys, and do we care about boys or only girls?)

What are possible solutions to reduce injury? We can think of plenty of possibilities that probably need to be part of a comprehensive approach, a package of several changes, not just one.

Should changing the age for senior competition be part of that package? Or would other actions the ISU could take or recommend be more effective in addressing the injury issues?


Or is the real problem that many fans prefer to watch older skaters at the senior level and/or prefer to watch long careers or prefer to watch ladies' skating that emphasizes qualities other than jump rotation (even if some of the same fans like jump rotation best about men's skating)?

In that case, what might be more effective ways of addressing those fan concerns?

Again, I think we can imagine plenty of changes that would probably be more effective than just changing the age limit. Some of them might have more significant changes in the structure of the sport, though.

What is the real question of this thread? How to minimize injuries? How to prolong careers for those skaters who want long careers? How to prolong careers for fan enjoyment? How to change the emphasis on what makes winning skating (for ladies only?) for better fan enjoyment?

Better, I think, to start with a question and then look for answers, rather than to start with an answer and look for a question to justify it.

 

[briancoogaert]

For me, the question is : What are possible solutions to reduce injury ?
It is the most important thing afterall.
IMO, judging system should not reward as much multiple rotations at such a young age. But we know that if a skater doesn't have all the triples really young, it is harder to get them later. So, there is no ideal solution to prevent injuries while giving sport the possibility to progress.