Save Women's Sport - the pearl clutching begins

[Asli]

Did you think I thought you were using a transphobic dog whistle by accident?

Why is it transphobic to say that I'm a woman?

Anyway, don't reply. I won't come back to this thread because I have to stay extremely calm for a while because of a disease that hits women nine times out of ten. It didn't ask about my gender.

 

[Theatregirl1122]

Why is it transphobic to say that I'm a woman?

Why is it transphobic to say that you are a woman as compared to Lia Thomas? I can't imagine that's a real question.

Anyway, don't reply. I won't come back to this thread because I have to stay extremely calm for a while because of a disease that hits women nine times out of ten. It didn't ask about my gender.

I'm not sure why this is relevant. Transgender people are more than 4 times more likely to experience violent crimes than cisgender people.

 

[Jot the Dot Dot]

Should Lia compete against biological women? Martina Navratilova doesn't think so, howzabout hearing her arguments. Navratilova

 

[MacMadame]

Should Lia compete against biological women? Martina Navratilova doesn't think so, howzabout hearing her arguments. Navratilova

I've heard her arguments. They are the same as everyone else's with that opinion. And we've already discussed them to death.

 

[Asli]

Is she [Caster Semenya) allowed to compete in the men’s division?

Of course. The men's category is actually an open category in all IAAF events. Both men and women can compete, including women with testosterone levels too high for the women's competition.

Only the women's category has the restrictions has sex-related restrictions, because this category was created to allow female athletes fair competition.

 

[Jot the Dot Dot]

I've heard her arguments. They are the same as everyone else's with that opinion. And we've already discussed them to death.

But others who had made those points are rarely rebutted, instead as Martina pointed out, they are too often just smeared as being 'Transphobic'. Kinda hard to dismiss Dr. Renee Richards as being ,Transphobic'.

 

[allezfred]

But others who had made those points are rarely rebutted, instead as Martina pointed out, they are too often just smeared as being 'Transphobic'. Kinda hard to dismiss Dr. Renee Richards as being ,Transphobic'.

Why? People in a minority can absolutely internalise and justify their own discrimination. For example, the gay people who campaigned against marriage equality.

And before we go any further Caster Semenya is not trans. She is a woman.

 

[Orm Irian]

this category was created to allow female athletes fair competition.

Historically, many women's sport competitions were actually created so that men didn't have to compete against and risk losing to women. In more than one case, they were created because men lost to women and couldn't cope with it. Women's sport competitions that became more popular than men's have also been shut down, starved of funds and/or forced to remain amateur while men's sports professionalised (e.g., women's soccer in the UK, netball and women's cricket and football in Australia). Things are changing, now, but only slowly and begrudgingly (look at the pay issue for the US women's soccer team, etc).

Women's sport, as a category, has never been about creating a space for female athletes to access fair competition. It's been about protecting male athletes from having to share their status, opportunities and rewards with with female ones.

 

[Asli]

Historically, many women's sport competitions were actually created so that men didn't have to compete against and risk losing to women. In more than one case, they were created because men lost to women and couldn't cope with it.

I'd love to read up on those sports in which men risked losing to women en masse.

In any case, in a number of sports including athletics, the men's category is open to women, so women can go and humiliate men whenever they want.

 

[allezfred]

I'd love to read up on those sports in which men risked losing to women en masse.

I don’t know if you’ve heard of it, but the sport of figure skating is one.

 

[Asli]

I don’t know if you’ve heard of it, but the sport of figure skating is one.

True. We should never ask for the men's category to be opened to women though. Can't face the sh*tstorm that Hanyu fans will start when he looses to a random Russian 15-year-old representing Uzbekistan.

 

[Asli]

I think people forget athletes like Caster Semenya who was banned from competing as woman (she is intersex) because her testosterone was deemed above the acceptable level for female competition. Not her fault but she is unable to compete now.

Caster Semenya had a good career though. She was allowed to come back after her 5-ARD condition was discovered and went on to win gold medals in two Olympics and several worlds. Only ten years after her initial diagnosis were the rules changed.

She was very charismatic and you could only sympathise with the black kid from a South African village. I also wanted her to win if only to spite the commentators. Morons!

 

[Asli]

Why? People in a minority can absolutely internalise and justify their own discrimination. For example, the gay people who campaigned against marriage equality.

An opinion is sometimes simply an opinion.

I agree with you that internalised homophobia and internalised misogyny are wide-spread and blatant and I'm sure internalised transphobia exists.

However, can one dismiss trailburners like lifelong LGBT rights defender Martina Navratilova and her coach and iconic transgender athlete Renée Richards as transphobic? It's much more likely that Navratilova is just telling her honest opinion. As am I. No name calling from the younger contingent, please!

 

[PRlady]

An opinion is sometimes simply an opinion.

I agree with you that internalised homophobia and internalised misogyny are wide-spread and blatant and I'm sure internalised transphobia exists.

However, can one dismiss trailburners like lifelong LGBT rights defender Martina Navratilova and her coach and iconic transgender athlete Renée Richards as transphobic? It's much more likely that Navratilova is just telling her honest opinion. As am I. No name calling from the younger contingent, please!

I don’t know how it is in France but in the US and UK, the sneering vitriol about what is a very complex and debatable issues is unbelievable. And contributes to a lot of peoples’ antagonism to the whole trans debate.

Today’s gifted example:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/12/opinion/sandra-newman-men.html?

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[Asli]

I don’t know how it is in France but in the US and UK, the sneering vitriol about what is a very complex and debatable issues is unbelievable. And contributes to a lot of peoples’ antagonism to the whole trans debate.

Yes, I've been aware of this for only a few months. I do know about JK Rowling.

Thanks for the article. Though it does include the following debatable statement: "Most people don’t want to live in a world in which books are vilified without being read and their authors attacked ad hominem for the temerity of having written them."

I feel that people really enjoy the name-calling, blaming and lynching game.

"It's easier to accuse than to understand, because if you understand, you have to change."

That quote is from Turkish writer and journalist Peyami Safa.

And yes, it is only starting in France. Only lesbians and feminists have heard of it.

 

[allezfred]

However, can one dismiss trailburners like lifelong LGBT rights defender Martina Navratilova and her coach and iconic transgender athlete Renée Richards as transphobic?

Yes, I can as neither are experts on gender dysphoria or human physiology.

 

[Asli]

Yes, I can as neither are experts on gender dysphoria or human physiology.

That doesn't make them transphobic though. That's all I'm saying.
Navratilova does say that experts and all actors should be consulted.

 

[Theatregirl1122]

It's much more likely that Navratilova is just telling her honest opinion. As am I. No name calling from the younger contingent, please!

It's always helpful to a conversation to dismiss anyone who disagrees with you by their age and insist that their disagreement is just "name calling" when in fact many arguments and research have been presented, whether or not they have been chosen to be read.

 

[MacMadame]

I'd love to read up on those sports in which men risked losing to women en masse.

Figure skating has been pointed out. And shows that it doesn't even have to be "en masse" for the Men to get their noogies in an uproar.

That doesn't make them transphobic though.

No, it's their opinions that do that.

 

[Jot the Dot Dot]

No, it's their opinions that do that.

How? How does Navratilova pointing out the biological differences between men and women, how those differences would impact an athletic event that puts men competing with women, how there may be questions of how effective hormone treatment is for participants, how any of that can be considered transphobic? Don't just assert how Navratilova and Richards were being transphobic, explain it. And not by circular reasoning (i.e. "they were being transphobic by making transphobic statements"). Too often the whole debate is mishandled by critics using the term 'transphobic' the way people use avocado: they put it on everything.

 

[allezfred]

And not by circular reasoning (i.e. "they were being transphobic by making transphobic statements").

I think making transphobic statements are a good sign that someone is transphobic. But again this a tactic used by the right where being labelled a transphobe/racist/homophobe is somehow worse than making transphobic/racist/homophobic statements. It is used as a tool of oppression of a minority.

The idea that women’s sport is under attack by transgender people is a right wing talking point. Find a wedge issue and raise a moral panic. Look at the media that are pushing this. Like the furore over bathrooms, the people pushing this are trying to drive trans people out of participating in society. Make no mistake about this.

 

[Jot the Dot Dot]

I think making transphobic statements are a good sign that someone is transphobic. But again this a tactic used by the right where being labelled a transphobe/racist/homophobe is somehow worse than making transphobic/racist/homophobic statements. It is used as a tool of oppression of a minority.

The idea that women’s sport is under attack by transgender people is a right wing talking point. Find a wedge issue and raise a moral panic. Look at the media that are pushing this. Like the furore over bathrooms, the people pushing this are trying to drive trans people out of participating in society. Make no mistake about this.

So Navratilova is now 'right wing'? A life-long Democrat, gay activist who describes herself as a 'bleeding-heart liberal - and proud of it', is now 'right wing'? J. K. Rowling was well known as a Labour Party supporter (albeit critical of Jeremy Corbyn, and favoring Gordon Brown), is she now 'right wing' as well? Author Kara Dansky wrote extensively on this issue in her book 'The Abolition Of Sex" raising many of the points I've cited in this thread, and is and was a member of the U.S. Democratic Party, except for a few years when she sided with the Green Party. How is that 'right wing'?

 

[allezfred]

So Navratilova is now 'right wing'? A life-long Democrat, gay activist who describes herself as a 'bleeding-heart liberal - and proud of it', is now 'right wing'? J. K. Rowling was well known as a Labour Party supporter (albeit critical of Jeremy Corbyn, and favoring Gordon Brown), is she now 'right wing' as well? Author Kara Dansky wrote extensively on this issue in her book 'The Abolition Of Sex" raising many of the points I've cited in this thread, and is and was a member of the U.S. Democratic Party, except for a few years when she sided with the Green Party. How is that 'right wing'?

They are using right wing talking points when it comes to transgender people in the classic way of the enemy of my enemy is my friend. In any case being on the left does not mean people cannot be bigoted or radicalised. JK Rowling has started calling transgender women “penised individuals” for example.

Martina Navratilova is entitled to her opinion on transgender people, but I do not think it is as valuable an opinion as an expert in the field. So I am going to dismiss it in the same way I dismiss Jamie Sale’s opinions about vaccines.

 

[antmanb]

However, can one dismiss trailburners like lifelong LGBT rights defender Martina Navratilova and her coach and iconic transgender athlete Renée Richards as transphobic?

Anyone can be transphobic, the LGB part of the LGBT community has been incredibly hostile towards trans people in the past and not fought very hard for the T rights. I think things are slowly getting better but we have a long way to go still. I would sadly say there are still more gay men who fall under the umbrella of transphobic than don't. CIS-gender privilege is still very much alive and well, and white cis-gendred men sit at the top of that particular food chain even if they are gay or bi, and the pattern of minorities discriminating further those who are minorities within minorities continues.

All that said to just point out that one can be a trailblazer for gay rights and and be transphobic - i've seen it in local community settings here in Manchester a lot, so it's entirely possible for Martina Navratilova to be the same.

It's much more likely that Navratilova is just telling her honest opinion. As am I. No name calling from the younger contingent, please!

An honest held opinion can still be transphobic. A white supremacist may hold an honest opinion about black people, that doesn't stop the opinion from being racist.

 

[PRlady]

Back when Judith Butler first claimed that sex is a social construct and no one talked about trans rights, I thought her arguments were ludicrous and I still do. Her “philosophy “ underlies a lot of the transactivist theory including the assigned-at-birth requirement for designating sex.

Debating Butler’s theory should not be considered transphobic. Nor should pointing out that defining gender along the lines of traditional masculine and feminine stereotypes is what feminism was invented to combat. Nor should acknowledging that people who go through puberty as males generally have a strength advantage over people who go through puberty as females.

Yelling transphobic at every attempt to discuss or debate is bullying. I don’t accept it anymore than I accept that every criticism of Israel means the critic is antisemitic or that every criticism of white Christian nationalism is anti-Christian. There are legitimate issues to be discussed from a baseline of respect for everyone’s rights.

 

[Theatregirl1122]

Nor should pointing out that defining gender along the lines of traditional masculine and feminine stereotypes is what feminism was invented to combat.

We've discussed multiple times that the fact of being transgender has nothing to do with defining gender along the lines of traditional masculine and feminine stereotypes.

Debating whether people's definition of themselves is true or whether they have a right to define themselves is transphobic. Sorry. It's not bullying to call a spade a spade. You cannot treat someone's life and identity as an academic argument and expect that to be accepted in good faith. Minority rights are only academic arguments to the privileged.

 

[Asli]

@allezfred, there is a pretty good collection of presentations from various experts from World Rugby's workshop on inclusion of transgender people. Experts from biology, performance science, endocrinology, clinical medicine, anti-doping and law participated, as well as representatives of players, LGBTi groups, women's rights groups.

After a two-day workshop, a commission went through an 18-month process of consulting all actors. The decision was made not to allow transgender women to play women's rugby. Only transgender women who had transitioned pre-puberty and therefore not gone through male puberty can play women's rugby.

Of course rugby is a contact sport, so there were important safety issues besides the fairness issues, which isn't the case for swimming or athletics.

Here is a video of a summary of the findings. Scroll down for the slides of the various presentations.

Several national federations have decided not to follow the guidelines and World Rugby has made it clear that in case of an accident they will be on their own.

 

[PRlady]

We've discussed multiple times that the fact of being transgender has nothing to do with defining gender along the lines of traditional masculine and feminine stereotypes.

Debating whether people's definition of themselves is true or whether they have a right to define themselves is transphobic. Sorry. It's not bullying to call a spade a spade. You cannot treat someone's life and identity as an academic argument and expect that to be accepted in good faith. Minority rights are only academic arguments to the privileged.

I have never debated anyone’s right to define themselves. Ever. I debate the theory that says biological sex is a social construct. I debate whether trans women compete on an equal playing field with cis women and whether the harm to either side is paramount. I don’t debate anyone’s belief they they are not the gender aligned with their biological sex; it’s only when that belief is based on “she likes trucks and not dolls” am I mildly concerned, and it’s still not my determination to make if that’s the reason for thinking oneself trans.

Surely you can see the difference between debating overarching theories (and the impact on politics) of the debate and not granting every human the rights to define themselves.

 

[allezfred]

Minority rights are only academic arguments to the privileged.

This. As someone who just seven years ago had to endure months of a national media debate about whether I was worthy enough to marry or have a family, it was incredibly damaging to my mental health.

Trans people exist. They have done so for centuries and centuries. A debate about their existence is inherently transphobic. Claiming that cisgender men are going to decide to transition to do better at sport is inherently transphobic (and displays a profound misunderstanding of cisgender men). Transgender women are probably the most vulnerable group of people in any of the societies we live in. They don’t need their existence to be debated. They need support.

 

[MacMadame]

I debate the theory that says biological sex is a social construct.

What theory? This is something TERFs say that trans people and their allies are saying and then argue against this strawman argument. Look at JK Rowling's essay that starts out "if biological sex isn't real" as if that was a serious argument being made It's not.