Save Women's Sport - the pearl clutching begins

[PRlady]

This. As someone who just seven years ago had to endure months of a national media debate about whether I was worthy enough to marry or have a family, it was incredibly damaging to my mental health.

Trans people exist. They have done so for centuries and centuries. A debate about their existence is inherently transphobic. Claiming that cisgender men are going to decide to transition to do better at sport is inherently transphobic (and displays a profound misunderstanding of cisgender men). Transgender women are probably the most vulnerable group of people in any of the societies we live in. They don’t need their existence to be debated. They need support.

Yes they DO. And I’m telling you as someone with 40 years experience in building support for social causes that the vicious attacks on people who do not adhere to every extreme theory is counterproductive. That’s all.

You can tell me that I’m a moderate consensus-builder and only loud and antagonistic radicals change the world. Fine. That’s a century-old debate at least. What I am sick and tired of is the bullying in progressive spaces, almost never by trans people themselves but by their allies.

And if you’re not aware of Judith Butler’s theories and their acknowledged underpinning of some of the more extreme claims, please look it up. It’s readily accessible.

 

[Asli]

Debating whether people's definition of themselves is true or whether they have a right to define themselves is transphobic. Sorry. It's not bullying to call a spade a spade.

Thank you for your civilized style. I want to make with you the kind of deal that we make with my own daughters on contentious issues: If you read my scribblings below with an open mind, I'll read a 20-page article of your choice that may change my mind on the subject.
Send me the link, please.

I know that the gender self-identification doctrine is now being taught as if it were a fact. However, it is only a doctrine that has become popular recently.

(Independently of the gender self-ID doctrine, transgender people exist. They have strong and persistent gender dysphoria, which makes them feel in the body of the wrong sex. They deserve equality, protection from discrimination and from hate crimes and medical support if they need it. This is independent of the discussion of the gender self-ID doctrine.)


According to the gender self-ID doctrine, biological sex doesn't exist/define a person. Only gender is important and gender is defined as an innate quality independent of biology. Somewhat like a soul.

There is, however, no scientific evidence that people have an innate, immutable gender, independent from their biology.

OTOH the entire body of biology and medicine is proof that biological sex is innate, immutable and the basis of evolution for humans as well as other mammals. It is also binary for more than 99.99% of humanity. The disorders and anomalies don't change the rule.

It's important for laws, rules and regulations safeguarding rights, health and safety to be based on science, and not on some inconsistent doctrine with no scientific basis.


Gender self-ID is homophobic. It refuses the existence of gay people. In the real world, gay and lesbian people are attracted to the same sex. This doctrine OTOH tells them that they should be attracted to the same gender. Or to be "pansexual". For instance, if a lesbian is not attracted to trans women presenting as men, she is called a transphobe, a fascist and a genital fetishist. This is happening now.

Is this really how attraction works?

As for the incredibly wide-spread gender dysphoria, how many of us would have thought we needed gender re-assignment, if we were on social media like the children and teenagers today? The "tomboy", the "girly boy", the "bossy girl", the boy who likes pink and looks at other boys. The teenager who feels miserable and uncomfortable in his/her body because of any number of reasons. The slightest sign of depression and therapists are so quick to put them into boxes. That could be any of us, just being human. Especially the future gay adults.

Transgender people exist. But not every gender non-conforming person is transgender.

The NHS's only children's gender transition clinic is currently running 'conversion therapy for gay kids' in a bid to persuade them that they are really trans, a gay psychologist who worked there has claimed.

And there have been other such claims.

In the most extreme case, Iran and Pakistan, BTW, have been quick to see the opportunity to erase male homosexuality. In Iran transsexuality is legal if you get the operation but homosexuality is punishable by death. Iran is number 1 in the world in sex change surgeries with 4000 operations a year, presumably to eradicate gay people. x1000

There's much more to say, especially about women's rights, this doctrine's conservatism and its dangers to children, but FSU is important to me and I want to remain.

This post is for FSU only. Please don't snitch on me to any scary trans activists.

 

[PRlady]

Thank you for your civilized style. I want to make with you the kind of deal that we make with my own daughters on contentious issues: If you read my scribblings below with an open mind, I'll read a 20-page article of your choice that may change my mind on the subject.
Send me the link, please.

I know that the gender self-identification doctrine is now being taught as if it were a fact. It is, however, it is only a doctrine that has become popular recently.

(Independently of the gender self-ID doctrine, transgender people exist. They have strong and persistent gender dysphoria, which makes them feel in the body of the wrong sex. They deserve equality, protection from discrimination and from hate crimes and medical support if they need it. This is independent of the discussion of the gender self-ID doctrine.)


According to the gender self-ID doctrine, biological sex doesn't exist/define a person. Only gender is important and gender is defined as an innate quality independent of biology. Somewhat like a soul.

There is, however, no scientific evidence that people have an innate, immutable gender, independent from their biology.

OTOH the entire body of biology and medicine is proof that biological sex is innate, immutable and the basis of evolution for humans as well as other mammals. It is also binary for more than 99.99% of humanity. The disorders and anomalies don't change the rule.

It's important for laws, rules and regulations safeguarding rights, health and safety to be based on science, and not on some inconsistent doctrine with no scientific basis.


Gender self-ID is homophobic. It refuses the existence of gay people. In the real world, gay and lesbian people are attracted to the same sex. This doctrine OTOH tells them that they should be attracted to the same gender. Or to be "pansexual". For instance, if a lesbian is not attracted to trans women presenting as men, she is called a transphobe, a fascist and a genital-fetishist. This is happening now.

Is this really how attraction works?

As for the incredibly wide-spread gender dysphoria, how many of us would have thought we needed gender re-assignment, if we were on social media like the children and teenagers today? The "tomboy", the "girly boy", the "bossy girl", the boy who likes pink and looks at other boys. The teenager who feels miserable and uncomfortable in his/her body because of any number of reasons. The slightest sign of depression and therapists are so quick to put them into boxes. That could be any of us, just being human. Especially the future gay adults.

Transgender people exist. But not every gender non-conforming person is transgender.

The NHS's only children's gender transition clinic is currently running 'conversion therapy for gay kids' in a bid to persuade them that they are really trans, a gay psychologist who worked there has claimed.

And there have been other such claims.

In the most extreme case, Iran and Pakistan, BTW, have been quick to see the opportunity to erase male homosexuality. In Iran transsexuality is legal if you get the operation but homosexuality is punishable by death. Iran is number 1 in the world in sex change surgeries with 4000 operations a year, presumably to eradicate gay people. x1000

There's much more to say, especially about women's rights, this doctrine's conservatism and its dangers to children, but FSU is important to me and I want to remain.

This post is for FSU only. Please don't snitch on me to any scary trans activists.

What a brave post. As the former poster girl for FSU doxxing you get from me.

 

[Asli]

What a brave post. As the former poster girl for FSU doxxing you get from me.

Oh no! I didn't want it to be too brave!

 

[allezfred]

@allezfred, there is a pretty good collection of presentations from various experts World Rugby's workshop on inclusion of transgender people. Experts from biology, performance science, endocrinology, clinical medicine, anti-doping and law participated, as well as representatives of players, LGBTi groups, women's rights groups.

After a two-day workshop, a commission went through an 18-month process of consulting all actors. The decision was made not to allow transgender women to play women's rugby. Only transgender women who had transitioned pre-puberty and therefore not gone through male puberty can play women's rugby.

Of course rugby is a contact sport, so there were important safety issues besides the fairness issues, which isn't the case for swimming or athletics.

Here is a video of a summary of the findings. Scroll down for the slides of the various presentations.

Several national federations have decided not to follow the guidelines and World Rugby has made it clear that in case of an accident they will be on their own.

This is reasonable as it still provides a pathway for some transgender people to participate in the sport. It proves that there is a respectable way to approach it rather than whipping up fear and hysteria in the media about individual transgender athletes who have met the criteria in their sports to compete.

However TERFs or “gender criticals” as they call themselves do not believe any transgender women should be able to participate in any women’s sports, even transgender women who have not gone through puberty. They are opposed to the use of puberty blockers and gender reassignment surgery. To them the sex you are born into is it and tough luck.

 

[allezfred]

Thank you for your civilized style. I want to make with you the kind of deal that we make with my own daughters on contentious issues: If you read my scribblings below with an open mind, I'll read a 20-page article of your choice that may change my mind on the subject.
Send me the link, please.

I know that the gender self-identification doctrine is now being taught as if it were a fact. However, it is only a doctrine that has become popular recently.

(Independently of the gender self-ID doctrine, transgender people exist. They have strong and persistent gender dysphoria, which makes them feel in the body of the wrong sex. They deserve equality, protection from discrimination and from hate crimes and medical support if they need it. This is independent of the discussion of the gender self-ID doctrine.)


According to the gender self-ID doctrine, biological sex doesn't exist/define a person. Only gender is important and gender is defined as an innate quality independent of biology. Somewhat like a soul.

There is, however, no scientific evidence that people have an innate, immutable gender, independent from their biology.

OTOH the entire body of biology and medicine is proof that biological sex is innate, immutable and the basis of evolution for humans as well as other mammals. It is also binary for more than 99.99% of humanity. The disorders and anomalies don't change the rule.

It's important for laws, rules and regulations safeguarding rights, health and safety to be based on science, and not on some inconsistent doctrine with no scientific basis.


Gender self-ID is homophobic. It refuses the existence of gay people. In the real world, gay and lesbian people are attracted to the same sex. This doctrine OTOH tells them that they should be attracted to the same gender. Or to be "pansexual". For instance, if a lesbian is not attracted to trans women presenting as men, she is called a transphobe, a fascist and a genital fetishist. This is happening now.

Is this really how attraction works?

As for the incredibly wide-spread gender dysphoria, how many of us would have thought we needed gender re-assignment, if we were on social media like the children and teenagers today? The "tomboy", the "girly boy", the "bossy girl", the boy who likes pink and looks at other boys. The teenager who feels miserable and uncomfortable in his/her body because of any number of reasons. The slightest sign of depression and therapists are so quick to put them into boxes. That could be any of us, just being human. Especially the future gay adults.

Transgender people exist. But not every gender non-conforming person is transgender.

The NHS's only children's gender transition clinic is currently running 'conversion therapy for gay kids' in a bid to persuade them that they are really trans, a gay psychologist who worked there has claimed.

And there have been other such claims.

In the most extreme case, Iran and Pakistan, BTW, have been quick to see the opportunity to erase male homosexuality. In Iran transsexuality is legal if you get the operation but homosexuality is punishable by death. Iran is number 1 in the world in sex change surgeries with 4000 operations a year, presumably to eradicate gay people. x1000

There's much more to say, especially about women's rights, this doctrine's conservatism and its dangers to children, but FSU is important to me and I want to remain.

This post is for FSU only. Please don't snitch on me to any scary trans activists.

I am not going to snitch, but I have to say I am very disappointed to read what you have wrote. Much of it is very hurtful to me as a member of the LGBT community. I would also advise you that the Daily Mail is not a reputable or trustworthy source to quote. And it also proves my point of the TERF/gender critical movement being aligned with the right wing.

What I can say is that in Ireland is that the “debate” on transgender people in the media to generate clicks has led to a rise in homophobic hate crime. I have never been publicly abused as much as I have in the past few months on the streets here by random people shouting “faggot” and other homophobic slurs.

 

[Asli]

What I can say is that in Ireland is that the “debate” on transgender people in the media to generate clicks has led to a rise in homophobic hate crime. I have never been publicly abused as much as I have in the past few months on the streets here by random people shouting “faggot” and other homophobic slurs.

Any hate crime against gay and transgender people is outrageous. Transgender people exist independently of the current debate on biology vs gender. The most important debate is about whether gender non-conformity should lead to a teenager being set in the experimental path of puberty blocking and transitioning.

OTOH my daughter is lesbian and her life has become absolute hell because of this new ideology and trans activists. I don't want to go into the details of her life but she can't even breath and she doesn't feel safe. Unfortunately lesbians don't enjoy one millionth of the institutional support and public outrage that transgender people currently enjoy.

 

[Asli]

Trans activists, some if them not trans at all, have been outrageously aggressive from the start against women who dared say a word on the subject, even though most of civil society has been supportive of them during the last years. Now there is an atmosphere of polarisation that benefits noone and unfortunately the backlash is likely to hit us all.

As a woman from a Muslim country my first instinct was to side with any marginalized group and that is what I did. However, this ideology is not the friend of other groups. It is dangerous for women, for children and for gay people like my daughter.

 

[BlueRidge]

I am not going to snitch, but I have to say I am very disappointed to read what you have wrote. Much of it is very hurtful to me as a member of the LGBT community.

Perhaps this is because you are male and your male privilege gives you a safer space with which to view all this.

You've taken your privilege here to belittle the lived experience of a woman--Martina Navratilova--because you disagree with her, likening her to an anti-vaxxer. Indeed all my life I've listened to men belittle women in the same way.

I haven't experienced anything like Asli's daughter but I watch the rabid gender ideologues with trepidation. I'm so old they can't really take anything form me now but it is frightening to me to see people proclaim that gender--which is created by patriarchy to keep people in assigned roles based on their original biology, must be considered the center of identity and people must choose to fit themselves into gender boxes and eschew the reality of their bodies.

Gender is a social construct and it is frightening to see people not only assert that it is the central identity one should have but gather in mobs on the internet to bully those who don't see it that way. To me elevating gender over sex is oppression, it alienates people from their bodies, and forces them to search for labels when they should be able to live their lives, presenting and expressing themselves in the ways that work for them not line up with the latest labels that activists have devised.

I do think transgender women should be able to participate in women's sports without people questioning their identity but I also think that the gender-ideology-complex that has arisen around the struggle for transgender people to just live is so wrong headed it is leading to a more oppressive and rigid social setting rather than freeing anyone.

 

[PRlady]

However TERFs or “gender criticals” as they call themselves do not believe any transgender women should be able to participate in any women’s sports, even transgender women who have not gone through puberty. They are opposed to the use of puberty blockers and gender reassignment surgery. To them the sex you are born into is it and tough luck.

Any woman who remembers or experienced trying to play sports before Title IX in the US is going to be protective of a still-beleaguered space. Personally I think the rules should be as flexible as possible without being unfair to the 99.99% cis women, and be sport-specific. (The rules for my old sport of archery can be more inclusive than a contact sport, for example.)

But if we are generally critical of puberty blockers for little Russian skater girls, why are they good for anyone else? Surely the physical risks are the same.

Gender is a social construct and it is frightening to see people not only assert that it is the central identity one should have but gather in mobs on the internet to bully those who don't see it that way. To me elevating gender over sex is oppression, it alienates people from their bodies, and forces them to search for labels when they should be able to live their lives, presenting and expressing themselves in the ways that work for them not line up with the latest labels that activists have devised.

This.

 

[MsZem]

Trans people exist. They have done so for centuries and centuries. A debate about their existence is inherently transphobic. Claiming that cisgender men are going to decide to transition to do better at sport is inherently transphobic (and displays a profound misunderstanding of cisgender men). Transgender women are probably the most vulnerable group of people in any of the societies we live in. They don’t need their existence to be debated. They need support.

I thought long and hard about responding to this post. I realize this is a sensitive subject where even 1% disagreement looms large, and we have strayed beyond the original topic of this thread, on which I feel ill-qualified to opine.

With that said: you live in a country that only recently legalized abortion by referendum, such that men got to say whether women would have rights over their own bodies. FSU has quite a few posters who are American women of childbearing age, and who may lose their reproductive rights in the near future. Women in many countries - not just extremely traditional ones - still face systemic discrimination and disadvantages, and many fall prey to sexual and intimate partner violence.

It is not necessary, in order to champion and protect the rights of transwomen, to minimize the vulnerability faced by their cis sisters.

 

[Asli]

Gender is a social construct and it is frightening to see people not only assert that it is the central identity one should have but gather in mobs on the internet to bully those who don't see it that way. To me elevating gender over sex is oppression, it alienates people from their bodies, and forces them to search for labels when they should be able to live their lives, presenting and expressing themselves in the ways that work for them not line up with the latest labels that activists have devised.

Exactly. This is the way the word "gender" has been used for decades, especially in "gender studies" and if a group wants to express something different, it's better to use a different word. If NewSpeak uses many words, including "men" and "women" in different meanings, it becomes impossible to communicate.

 

[BlueRidge]

Exactly. This is the way the word "gender" has been used for decades, especially in "gender studies" and if a group wants to express something different, it's better to use a different word. If NewSpeak uses many words, including "men" and "women" in different meanings, it becomes impossible to communicate.

There are also philosophical implications that people may not be thinking about but that will have an impact as social behaviors become adapted to the language and even codified in law.

Gender as an innate concept of individuals but not a biological one is essentially going back to mind/body dualism and prioritizing what has been described as a "ghost in the machine" concept of selfhood separate from the body. The implications for a technological--consumerist society that elevates the "virtual" over the physical while annihilating much of the nature that our physical bodies (our actual selves) depend upon for life is a bit daunting.

Its unnecessary for accepting transgender people as they are and supporting their full human rights. Transgender is a function of the physical body--of that very physical organ the brain. People are not separate from their bodies; medicine is dealing with transgender as a physical phenomenon. Granted the term "transgender" unfortunately elevates gender but as terms change continuously this may not be the preferred term in a few years time. Peoples lives and selves are not determined by society's gender prescriptions, we are not locked into performing to meet patriarchy's requirements. Our bodies are our selves whether we are cis-gender or transgender and we should all be respected and uplifted as the natural beings we are.

 

[Asli]

But if we are generally critical of puberty blockers for little Russian skater girls, why are they good for anyone else? Surely the physical risks are the same.

Until a year ago, I thought that puberty blockers looked like a good solution for transgender teenagers who would suffer if they went through puberty and their appearance didn't match the sex they felt they belonged to. I even explained this to my children.

At the time I thought that a transgender child could be diagnosed with near certainty at the end of a long process. So I thought: how nice that medicine can now alleviate their suffering!

Two things have changed.
1. Now puberty blockers are apparently being given hastily and to a large spectrum of children, some of whom could have gender dysphoria for a number of reasons other than being transgender.
2. Investigative journalism has uncovered that there is no data about the consequences of these blockers and the doctors themselves are saying they don't know what they're doing and are just hoping for the best.

So my understanding after watching and reading these was that 1. They are given too indiscriminately and 2. The children are guinea pigs.

After a particular Swedish documentary including the stories of detransitioners, Sweden's only transgender clinic stopped giving puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones to minors.

You can see that the doctors are well-intentioned and there is no vitriol from most of the de-transitioners or the desister whom they talk with, but the haphazardnous of the whole process is eye opening! They have made no effort to find out the reasons for which a child could have had gender dysphoria and have directly assumed thatthey were transgender.

Here is a link of this documentary "Trans Train" Episode 1 , Episode 2 and a short Episode 3 with English subtitles.

 

[Asli]

There are also philosophical implications that people may not be thinking about but that will have an impact as social behaviors become adapted to the language and even codified in law.

Gender as an innate concept of individuals but not a biological one is essentially going back to mind/body dualism and prioritizing what has been described as a "ghost in the machine" concept of selfhood separate from the body. The implications for a technological--consumerist society that elevates the "virtual" over the physical while annihilating much of the nature that our physical bodies (our actual selves) depend upon for life is a bit daunting.

Its unnecessary for accepting transgender people as they are and supporting their full human rights. Transgender is a function of the physical body--of that very physical organ the brain. People are not separate from their bodies; medicine is dealing with transgender as a physical phenomenon. Granted the term "transgender" unfortunately elevates gender but as terms change continuously this may not be the preferred term in a few years time. Peoples lives and selves are not determined by society's gender prescriptions, we are not locked into performing to meet patriarchy's requirements. Our bodies are our selves whether we are cis-gender or transgender and we should all be respected and uplifted as the natural beings we are.

I couldn't have said it better myself and actually couldn't say it nearly as well in post number 92 above.

 

[BlueRidge]

I couldn't have said it better myself and actually couldn't say it nearly as well in post number 92 above.

I wasn't able to get my thoughts together until this morning but I did read your post yesterday!

I'm obviously concerned here with much more that just issues surrounding gender but I think people should really give some thought to what they are implicitly accepting and whether they really want to advance theories/ideologies that sever humans from nature and/or which seem to hark back to religious theories of the soul that some may have unconsciously had lodged in them from an early age.

ETA: and some people may be saying what's this all got to do with whether transgender women can compete in women's sports--really not that much except that these arguments are being put forward as gospel by many advocates for transgender women in sports. I'm for transgender woman competing in women's sports but I AM NOT going to promote oppressive arguments just because other people demand these arguments be mouthed as the only way to support transgender rights.

I am also not going to sit by and see women who have experienced sexism in sport, fought against it, and elevated women's sports like Martina Navratilova derided and belittled. I don't have to agree with her to respect her and listen. But to see her life experience, so important to women, women's sports and to lesbians treated as irrelevant and likened to frivolous anti-vaxxers is beyond the pale.

 

[Asli]

I'm obviously concerned here with much more that just issues surrounding gender but I think people should really give some thought to what they are implicitly accepting and whether they really want to advance theories/ideologies that sever humans from nature and/or which seem to hark back to religious theories of the soul that some may have unconsciously had lodged in them from an early age.

Usually, siding with the approach of the LGBT activists is the more progressive stance. I think many liberal people do this automatically as did I, initially.

However this time, trans activists are defending a stance that is frankly very conservative: The body-soul dichotomy, the acceptance of male and female stereotypes and sometimes even the suggestion that if a child is attracted to the same sex, he or she is actually of the opposite gender. Also, shutting women up by terrorising them.

It is very confusing and IMO there is going to be a lot of position shuffling more people see the consequences of the gender seif-ID doctrine - which can be traumatic, unfortunately.

 

[allezfred]

I thought long and hard about responding to this post. I realize this is a sensitive subject where even 1% disagreement looms large, and we have strayed beyond the original topic of this thread, on which I feel ill-qualified to opine.

With that said: you live in a country that only recently legalized abortion by referendum, such that men got to say whether women would have rights over their own bodies. FSU has quite a few posters who are American women of childbearing age, and who may lose their reproductive rights in the near future. Women in many countries - not just extremely traditional ones - still face systemic discrimination and disadvantages, and many fall prey to sexual and intimate partner violence.

It is not necessary, in order to champion and protect the rights of transwomen, to minimize the vulnerability faced by their cis sisters.

I refer you to the statement of the official Irish abortion rights campaign on gender self-identification:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1536767346798370816

All the leading Irish feminists and groups that I am aware of are supportive of transgender rights.

We have had gender self-identification since 2015 in Ireland and it is such a non-issue. That is why I am frankly taken aback by the discussion here.

 

[PRlady]

This article, gifted, is brand new and carefully explores the medical controversies over transitioning. There’s so much that is not yet known, chief among them why there has been a stunning increase in the number of children and teenagers thinking they are trans.


I’d line up to punch Abbott and DeSantis in their faces over what they are doing to vulnerable people. This is an issue for trans kids, their doctors and their parents. So that’s not the issue here.

The deeper issues discussed above in no way detract from supporting trans people getting appropriate medical care.


https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/15/...AtLc7TRoKwk061GB&referringSource=articleShare

 

[BlueRidge]

I’d line up to punch Abbott and DeSantis in their faces over what they are doing to vulnerable people. This is an issue for trans kids, their doctors and their parents. So that’s not the issue here.

The law which Abbott has championed in Texas goes right to the heart of the arguments about Roe v Wade, about whether individuals and their loved ones should have the privacy to make their own decisions about health care or not. The Texas law says no. Its incredibly important to protect privacy, on abortion rights, and for transgender people, on end of life care and more.

 

[allezfred]

I would have thought the simple answer as to why there are more transgender children is the same reason why there are more gay and lesbian children - society and their families are now more accepting. People do not have to hide who they are.

 

[Asli]

I would have thought the simple answer as to why there are more transgender children is the same reason why there are more gay and lesbian children - society and their families are now more accepting. People do not have to hide who they are.

That must be one of the anwers but I think it's more complex than that. A 4000% increase in ten years up to 2018 in the number of biological girls seeking transgender treatment in the UK seems very high for a societal trend. There has been a steeper increase since.

Secondly, 70% to 85% of teenagers seeking transgender treatment are biological girls, according to country. It's baffling.

OTOH I don't have general statistics, but anecdotally, in the school that I know, the number of gay children/teenagers has decreased and there are practically no lesbians. Now they are all trans.

 

[PRlady]

Meanwhile, hetero cisgirls are told they are oppressors. While suffering from eating disorders et al which are exacerbated by social media and agony over not having the right body. Show me a woman on FSU who liked her body as a teenager and I'll show you, maybe, the ones who were good skaters with small, thin but muscled bodies back then. And a few healthy-minded folks which alas did not include me.

The stunning increase in girls thinking they are trans-men may be linked to the upsurge in body competition served up by Insta and TikTok. If you don't have the "right" body it's because you're not a girl in the first place. It's just as worthy of investigation as the thesis that more toleration is bringing more trans people out of the closet, which certainly could account for some of it.

 

[allezfred]

Well maybe I just live in a country that is an outlier, but since we introduced gender self id in 2015 a total of 1000 people have applied for one. That equates to 0.02% of the population. And we have social media and teenagers with body issues too.

 

[BlueRidge]

Well maybe I just live in a country that is an outlier, but since we introduced gender self id in 2015 a total of 1000 people have applied for one. That equates to 0.02% of the population. And we have social media and teenagers with body issues too.

There was an article just the other day that said for the US population .06% identify as transgender. I don't know whether that's up or down but it is a small segment. It behooves people to be cautious when addressing the issue because right now the far right in this country is trying to gin up a moral panic over transgender issues to use it to grab political power and they have no compunction about deeply harming people in the process.

 

[allezfred]

By the way if anyone is interested, here is the process for obtaining a gender recognition certificate in Ireland:

Legal recognition of your preferred gender

The Gender Recognition Act 2015 provides for the legal recognition of a person's preferred gender by the State.

www.citizensinformation.ie

I will repeat again that this system has been in operation for seven years.

 

[PRlady]

We are so federalized that the process for changing one's ID is state by state. I expect that red states are going to make that harder, too.

 

[allezfred]

But if we are generally critical of puberty blockers for little Russian skater girls, why are they good for anyone else? Surely the physical risks are the same.

For the same reasons we are critical of Russian skater girls taking angina medication meant for their grandfathers.

 

[maatTheViking]

I've been thinking about how to reply to this thread and if I even should. I've opened and closed this thread a couple of times, to be honest.

I am not going to snitch, but I have to say I am very disappointed to read what you have wrote. Much of it is very hurtful to me as a member of the LGBT community. I would also advise you that the Daily Mail is not a reputable or trustworthy source to quote. And it also proves my point of the TERF/gender critical movement being aligned with the right wing.

In the end I deleted most of my post, because I don't think I'm ready to engage in this discussion, but thanks for speaking up here. I also found this post quite hurtful, as well as some of the other posts.

I will say a lot of my thoughts around this is rooted in personal experiences of being feeling more comfortable in queer spaces than in women's spaces, where there (still) is a lot of pressure to perform your gender - even if that is "leaning in" or whatever you call it.



and this is all quite far off the thread topic; the amount of trans people participating in elite sport is so low that the whole argument is inherently transphobic and constructed to create division among progressives.

 

[Asli]

There was an article just the other day that said for the US population .06% identify as transgender. I don't know whether that's up or down but it is a small segment. It behooves people to be cautious when addressing the issue because right now the far right in this country is trying to gin up a moral panic over transgender issues to use it to grab political power and they have no compunction about deeply harming people in the process.

The estimates go up to 0.7% for adults and 1.4% for teenagers. However, your point still stands.

Ordinary transgender people aren't threatening anyway. It mainly is the ideology, the new rules and the pretense that has to be kept, that is harmful for women and children.

The lesbians here for instance, have lost the places that used to belong to them. They are always swarmed by insistent male people mostly presenting as men, but can't be denied access because they say they are women. Most haven't gone through any kind of transition, they are dressed as men and yet the women are supposed to "pretend" that they are women and be attracted to them.

From the couple of lesbian bars that remain open to dating sites, they don't have any place they can call their own and soon probably those will close as well, because what's the point?

And this is apart from the trans activist attacks.